£10m FFP Bill

[cannable]

On 23/05/2018 at 13:53, Ghost of Clough said:

Doubt it when he was signed for up to 4m.

Five rising to six, confirmed at a Huddersfield fans forum a few years ago

[ilkleyram]

7 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Well that'll be what's giving ramblur a head-ache then! ?

I can remove commas too! ?

[ramblur]

7 minutes ago, ilkleyram said:

I can remove commas too! ?

....but can you remove comas??

[Rab a dab doo]

If that's the price for Butterfield then ouch with a capital O

[Rev]

59 minutes ago, cannable said:

Five rising to six, confirmed at a Huddersfield fans forum a few years ago

£5m upfront, and an extra 100k per smile upto £6m max.

That makes a grand total of £5m.

[Ramleicester]

Cumulative impact of paying managers off, monthly losses, new reserves required due to the Sam Rush issue and a Chairman who has run out of patience and the will to find ways to legitimately input capital. Add in transfer fees due and spiralling overheads then the result is a club that has run out of financial steam.

6 months of austerity followed my new owners it will be a painful season but one that is needed. 

Change, survive and go again.

[Spanish]

On 23/05/2018 at 14:53, Ghost of Clough said:

Doubt it when he was signed for up to 4m.

Recently I am told it is 5 rising to 6, who is correct here?

[Spanish]

On 23/05/2018 at 12:06, BathRam72 said:

An article that sends out messages that we have no money, might have to sell our best players and maybe getting fined what ever spare money there is. Surely not what a potential manager wants to see.

Or do you see it differently than it actually is? 

Going back to this, looks like frank had no concerns 

[BathRam72]

3 minutes ago, Spanish said:

Going back to this, looks like frank had no concerns 

It was an observation at the time. The press always look to dig up the dirt and it had potential to be relevantly damaging to our getting a big name manager. No manager with a reputation would want to risk it. Lampard is new and he is brave. This will define who he is as a manager.  Make or break but he is starting with a clean slate in terms of management so not a lot to lose and plenty to gain if he pulls it off

[IronRam 140.6]

On 25/05/2018 at 15:01, Spanish said:

I have read that the intention was to impose penalties before the formal end of the season in order to penalise teams before they got promotion, sounds fanciful

If you break FFP to get promoted, you should be prevented from receiving Parachute payments WHEN you come back down again. Simples.

[eddie]

It was in the Daily Mail.

I now doubt the existence of the letters F and P in the alphabet.

[RamNut]

On 23 May 2018 at 17:11, ramblur said:

The headline loss in 16/17 was just under £8m, after transfer profits of just over £16m. If you stripped these out of the result, you'd be left with a loss of c£24m based on 'normal' income and expenditure, or £2m/ month. It would be going some to add 50% to that this year, based on known transactions, so I think that aspect's drivel.

These were the figures that i'd seen but then i looked at the sevco accounts and got confused as to where the above figures were from.

for example the £16m profit on player sales seemed to be spread over two years. £7.2m in 2016/17 and £9m in 2915/16. No doubt @ramblur could explain it.

What was apparent was that:

• we were/are losing millions and are racking up a huge debt to MM.
• wages mushroomed to a totally unsustainable level
• there just isn't enough income to even get close to covering outgoings. The whole league looks bankrupt to me.

i would even question whether the £5-6m annual cost of the academy is affordable when turnover is £24m.

 

 

 

 

[Carnero]

40 minutes ago, RamNut said:

What was apparent was that:

• we were/are losing millions and are racking up a huge debt to MM - there is no debt, Mel has personally covered the losses as equity. The club is debt-free.
• wages mushroomed to a totally unsustainable level - agreed
• there just isn't enough income to even get close to covering outgoings. The whole league looks bankrupt to me. - agreed 

 

[RamNut]

@Carnero

here's another thing i don't quite get.....probably because i'm not an accountant, but the losses are frequently stated as £7.9m for 2016-17 and £14.9m for 2015-16.......yet the 2016-17 accounts state " the losses (for 16-17) after taxation amounted to £21,206,451, (2016 loss £36,117,241)"

all detailed on p8 of the accounts.

i haven't read the article that sparked this but presumably that £36m loss for 15-16 is where the idea came from that we are losing £3m a month.

i assume that the reduction in the loss for 2015-16 from £36m to £14.9m is explained by this gobbledegook....."in the prior year an impairment charge of £21,298,252 was made on the basis that goodwill in relation to acquisitions made during the year had a fair value of nil" . Ey?

a bit later it states......"included in other creditors is £95,609,218 owed to.....Melvyn Morris".

I don't understand it all, but it doesn't look good to my untrained eye.

 

 

 

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

6 hours ago, RamNut said:

@Carnero

here's another thing i don't quite get.....probably because i'm not an accountant, but the losses are frequently stated as £7.9m for 2016-17 and £14.9m for 2015-16.......yet the 2016-17 accounts state " the losses (for 16-17) after taxation amounted to £21,206,451, (2016 loss £36,117,241)"

all detailed on p8 of the accounts.

i haven't read the article that sparked this but presumably that £36m loss for 15-16 is where the idea came from that we are losing £3m a month.

i assume that the reduction in the loss for 2015-16 from £36m to £14.9m is explained by this gobbledegook....."in the prior year an impairment charge of £21,298,252 was made on the basis that goodwill in relation to acquisitions made during the year had a fair value of nil" . Ey?

a bit later it states......"included in other creditors is £95,609,218 owed to.....Melvyn Morris".

I don't understand it all, but it doesn't look good to my untrained eye.

 

 

 

 

I'm no ramblur,  but have some experience through work of analysing company accounts. 

Not sure which accounts you're looking at as the group has a complex structure but here are a couple of possible explanations. 

Losses: the ffp losses are not the same as the overall enterprise losses as some items are excluded. For example the academy costs.

The special loss of 21m is a one off. One cause could be cancelling debt  (didn't Mel do this reportedly in one year for the club)? If Mel bought the company and it had money owed to it  (from previous years activities ) that in reality it wasn't going to get then it can be written off. That would create an accounting loss  (ie you now have something worth nothing whereas you previously thought it was going to receive 21m from somewhere ). The amount that the club is overspending by is usually called "operating loss" or something similar. 

The amount owed to Mel is interesting - I'd read that the club was debt free. Again you have to see all the group companies accounts to piece the whole story together. But the fact an amount is stated as owed suggests Mel is making loans. Effectively this means in theory he can ask for his money back at some point. Maybe he has since converted some debt to equity, which would mean he can't force the insolvency of the company. 

[RamNut]

15 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

I'm no ramblur,  but have some experience through work of analysing company accounts. 

Not sure which accounts you're looking at as the group has a complex structure but here are a couple of possible explanations. 

Losses: the ffp losses are not the same as the overall enterprise losses as some items are excluded. For example the academy costs.

The special loss of 21m is a one off. One cause could be cancelling debt  (didn't Mel do this reportedly in one year for the club)? If Mel bought the company and it had money owed to it  (from previous years activities ) that in reality it wasn't going to get then it can be written off. That would create an accounting loss  (ie you now have something worth nothing whereas you previously thought it was going to receive 21m from somewhere ). The amount that the club is overspending by is usually called "operating loss" or something similar. 

The amount owed to Mel is interesting - I'd read that the club was debt free. Again you have to see all the group companies accounts to piece the whole story together. But the fact an amount is stated as owed suggests Mel is making loans. Effectively this means in theory he can ask for his money back at some point. Maybe he has since converted some debt to equity, which would mean he can't force the insolvency of the company. 

The sevco 5112 accounts state that they are the group accounts.

i understand that the ffp assessment is different and is massaged as certain losses/costs are excluded, but is the £7.9m loss the ffp result or supposedly the overall group result. 

Certainly the figures are very different to the £21.2m and £36.1m losses detailed in the accounts.

 

[RamNut]

[RamNut]

This page details the debts / creditors.

If i understand this correctly then we have a £3m bank loan. We owe £8m in transfer fees and we owe mel morris £95m.

 

[RamNut]

Still trying to understand this.

Is another explanation for the 2015-16 discrepancy for the £36m loss becoming a £14.9m loss accounted for by the increase in creditors from £73m to £95m. I.e. Mel stumped up £22m in one year to bring the losses in line with the ffp requirements?

@ramblur ?

 

[Carnero]

@RamNut

The Derby County Football Club Ltd ("DCFC", the bit that matters to us) is debt-free.

SevCo 5112  (the parent co) owes MM for the funds he's introduced into SevCo 5112, which SevCo 5112 has used to purchase equity in DCFC.

DCFC is NOT liable for these loans, SevCo 5112 is.

SevCo 5112 has no means of extracting these funds from DCFC unless or until one of the following happens:

1) DCFC makes enough profit to wipe out all accumulated losses, and create a P&L surplus from which dividends can be paid to SevCo 5112 (very unlikely unless Premier League status is obtained)

2) SevCo 5112 sells some or all of the shares in DCFC to an external purchaser and repays MM some or all of his loans.

I repeat, DCFC (the only bit that matters to us) is debt-free.