Defending Set Pieces

[Mckram]

Just managed to bring myself to watch back the goals from Friday and one thing that I’ve always been puzzled by is why we defend set pieces with every single man back? We’ve done it for quite some time now.

On Friday the first and last goals were from corners. We had every single man in our box for both. Not only did it cause mayhem with everyone jumping and getting in each other’s way but it also meant we had nobody to challenge for the second ball.

First goal - two of our players go for the same ball, Sunderland player has all the time in the world to control it and pass it to his team mate on the edge of the box, he shoots and with so many bodies in the box it deflects in.

Last goal - they win the flick on and man free at the back post shoots, Johnson attempts to clear the ball but hits a Derby player and they poke it in.

Not forgetting they also hit the bar from a corner when McNair beat 3 Derby players in the air going for the same ball.

It just feels like we have no organisation or discipline from corners and when we do clear it we have no outlet so it just comes straight back.

What happened to having a man with pace on the half way line (like Wiemann) so the opposition have to keep 2 or 3 men back? Sunderland had 9 men forward at corners! 

I’d even accept a man sat a few yards out the area to at least pressure the second ball.

Just something to watch out for tomorrow and see how many problems we cause ourselves.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

49 minutes ago, Mckram said:

Just managed to bring myself to watch back the goals from Friday and one thing that I’ve always been puzzled by is why we defend set pieces with every single man back? We’ve done it for quite some time now.

On Friday the first and last goals were from corners. We had every single man in our box for both. Not only did it cause mayhem with everyone jumping and getting in each other’s way but it also meant we had nobody to challenge for the second ball.

First goal - two of our players go for the same ball, Sunderland player has all the time in the world to control it and pass it to his team mate on the edge of the box, he shoots and with so many bodies in the box it deflects in.

Last goal - they win the flick on and man free at the back post shoots, Johnson attempts to clear the ball but hits a Derby player and they poke it in.

Not forgetting they also hit the bar from a corner when McNair beat 3 Derby players in the air going for the same ball.

It just feels like we have no organisation or discipline from corners and when we do clear it we have no outlet so it just comes straight back.

What happened to having a man with pace on the half way line (like Wiemann) so the opposition have to keep 2 or 3 men back? Sunderland had 9 men forward at corners! 

I’d even accept a man sat a few yards out the area to at least pressure the second ball.

Just something to watch out for tomorrow and see how many problems we cause ourselves.

It's gone all season.....bizarre.

[1967Ram]

3 hours ago, Mckram said:

Just managed to bring myself to watch back the goals from Friday and one thing that I’ve always been puzzled by is why we defend set pieces with every single man back? We’ve done it for quite some time now.

On Friday the first and last goals were from corners. We had every single man in our box for both. Not only did it cause mayhem with everyone jumping and getting in each other’s way but it also meant we had nobody to challenge for the second ball.

First goal - two of our players go for the same ball, Sunderland player has all the time in the world to control it and pass it to his team mate on the edge of the box, he shoots and with so many bodies in the box it deflects in.

Last goal - they win the flick on and man free at the back post shoots, Johnson attempts to clear the ball but hits a Derby player and they poke it in.

Not forgetting they also hit the bar from a corner when McNair beat 3 Derby players in the air going for the same ball.

It just feels like we have no organisation or discipline from corners and when we do clear it we have no outlet so it just comes straight back.

What happened to having a man with pace on the half way line (like Wiemann) so the opposition have to keep 2 or 3 men back? Sunderland had 9 men forward at corners! 

I’d even accept a man sat a few yards out the area to at least pressure the second ball.

Just something to watch out for tomorrow and see how many problems we cause ourselves.

I don't get this either. Leave one up and they will keep two back. Two up and they'll keep three back, Less to defend against and we have an 'out ball' when/if we win it. It seems so obvious to me - why we invite pressure on ourselves I don't know.

[RamLad1884]

Don't see why weimann or vyds can't sit outside the box, they're not tall enough to influence anything in the air but they're certainly pacey enough for counter attacks. A good amount of goals this year came with counter attacks, I don't see why we don't utilise it more

[SuperDerbySuperRams]

Remember the bizarre tactic we did in the early days under McClaren with Ward and Russell on either flank by the half way line. Sometimes it’s good to make teams think. 

Although, in defence of Rowett, minus the last few months, under his reign we have defended set pieces really well.

[rynny]

15 minutes ago, SuperDerbySuperRams said:

Remember the bizarre tactic we did in the early days under McClaren with Ward and Russell on either flank by the half way line. Sometimes it’s good to make teams think. 

Although, in defence of Rowett, minus the last few months, under his reign we have defended set pieces really well.

Wasn't it Clough that did that against Stoke in the FA Cup? 

[HuddersRam]

There was one corner (could have been the last goal) where Palmer was originally left up but he was back defending by the time the ball came in. At 3-1 down, having everybody back makes no tactical sense. It invites pressure straight back on and keeps us with a deep line for the return ball.

In 13/14, the third goal against Forest came purely from a hoof clear by Ward, a control by Bamford (who had stayed on half way) and Hendrick who made the burst as soon as the ball came in. Turning a defensive set-piece into an attack was one of McClaren's fortes - now it's as if it's simply about shutting up shop. Does having Palmer, Weimann, Vydra back have any positive influence whatsoever either, considering they're all small people who should be at the other end leading the counter?

[DavesaRam]

Could it be an outworking of Garry's cautious approach to football? He started this season off with us stifling the opposition and then catching them on the break. So for example the match against Villa, where they had loads of possession but virtually never troubled our defence yet we beat them comfortably because of our counter-attacking and our at-the-time very efficient strike force.

 

There was some reaction about our style of play, and I remember Rowett standing his ground and saying this is what we are getting, largely because of the playing staff available, but that we may progress to a more expansive style in due course. But a couple of matches later  we started to be more positive, and this coincided with our results falling off - this would be towards the end of last year, while the good run was still going on. So Gary then had to do something to stem the tide, but didn't return to his original tactics which had been working well, id somewhat dull .

 

And so we move forwards again to last Friday when we faced the worst team in the championship, and Rowett set us up to avoid defeat. Why? What was the point of two defensive mids when Sunderland had great difficulty in scoring? What was the point of Palmer being sat on the bench when he is currently our only player capable of a bit of creative flair (pardon my language, Gary)? I think Gary is not confident of Palmer's ability to last the full 90, so keeps him on the bench to make sure. But starting him doesn't mean that he then has to stay on for the full 90. Start him so that we can take the game to the opposition, hopefully get in front and be in control, then take him off and shore up the defence. That surely must be a much better option than holding back until the game is virtually gone, and then sending him on with the hopeless task of rescuing the game, mustn't it?

 

Oh and just it was obvious that there was a very effective partnership between  Nugent and Vydra, we start mucking about with it and stop playing the two of them together. Why? And the awesome possibility of Martin and Vydra, which I don't think Rowett tried once, apart from when they happened to be on the same pitch at the same time as eachother after the usual late substitutions.

[Dordogne-Ram]

5 hours ago, Mckram said:

Just managed to bring myself to watch back the goals from Friday and one thing that I’ve always been puzzled by is why we defend set pieces with every single man back? We’ve done it for quite some time now.

On Friday the first and last goals were from corners. We had every single man in our box for both. Not only did it cause mayhem with everyone jumping and getting in each other’s way but it also meant we had nobody to challenge for the second ball.

First goal - two of our players go for the same ball, Sunderland player has all the time in the world to control it and pass it to his team mate on the edge of the box, he shoots and with so many bodies in the box it deflects in.

Last goal - they win the flick on and man free at the back post shoots, Johnson attempts to clear the ball but hits a Derby player and they poke it in.

Not forgetting they also hit the bar from a corner when McNair beat 3 Derby players in the air going for the same ball.

It just feels like we have no organisation or discipline from corners and when we do clear it we have no outlet so it just comes straight back.

What happened to having a man with pace on the half way line (like Wiemann) so the opposition have to keep 2 or 3 men back? Sunderland had 9 men forward at corners! 

I’d even accept a man sat a few yards out the area to at least pressure the second ball.

Just something to watch out for tomorrow and see how many problems we cause ourselves.

Arthur Cox adopted this approach and got rightfully slaughtered for it by the Baseball Ground crowd.

Deja vue?

[RamNut]

Why did they have a free man in the 6yd box if everyone is back?? (4th goal)

[SuperDerbySuperRams]

1 hour ago, rynny said:

Wasn't it Clough that did that against Stoke in the FA Cup? 

He may have, but McClaren used it regularly in his first season

[plymouthram]

Teams that have sussed us out recently, like Sunderland did on Friday, have used the tactic of having a high line and pushing up on us. Surely (Gary) we must leave a fast player up by the half way line when defending and have a plan to counter react this style against us.

[europia]

27 minutes ago, plymouthram said:

Teams that have sussed us out recently, like Sunderland did on Friday, have used the tactic of having a high line and pushing up on us. Surely (Gary) we must leave a fast player up by the half way line when defending and have a plan to counter react this style against us.

It might have looked like sunderland sussed us out tactically, or was it just a case that we were absolutely dire individually and collectively??

[Dr. Gonzo]

5 minutes ago, europia said:

It might have looked like sunderland sussed us out tactically, or was it just a case that we were absolutely dire individually and collectively??

i agree, they didnt suss us out anymore than we fell to pieces. slapstick errors and then total a collapse in belief. 

[May Contain Nuts]

2 hours ago, RamNut said:

Why did they have a free man in the 6yd box if everyone is back?? (4th goal)

I don't know, but I do remember thinking at some point in the last few years that we've got a team full of players who like to pass on the responsibility of making decisive action onto others. I had thought that the addition of Davies would have lead to this becoming less of a problem.

It's almost like regardless of how likely (or not) their man is to ever receive the ball they daren't take responsibility lest they then be blamed for the goal. I can understand that to a degree as that's probably my personality but I've never had any intention of becoming a professional footballer! Sometimes someone needs to take that chance and to put a boot through it!

Then you've got players like Johnson (and previously Hendrick) who simply can't track or are too lazy the movement of an opposing player, leaving them free to do what they want..

Combine the two and you get poor marking and static defending, which is exactly the cause of their 4th goal.

[Gaspode]

11 hours ago, RamNut said:

Why did they have a free man in the 6yd box if everyone is back?? (4th goal)

Because we defended like a bunch of 10 year-olds.....

[Sparkle]

16 hours ago, SuperDerbySuperRams said:

Remember the bizarre tactic we did in the early days under McClaren with Ward and Russell on either flank by the half way line. Sometimes it’s good to make teams think. 

Although, in defence of Rowett, minus the last few months, under his reign we have defended set pieces really well.

Lawrence doesn’t defend anything well and neither do one or two others, yep Russell and ward two very good players for us and the opposing teams respected them

[Seaside Sam]

13 hours ago, Coconut said:

I don't know, but I do remember thinking at some point in the last few years that we've got a team full of players who like to pass on the responsibility of making decisive action onto others. I had thought that the addition of Davies would have lead to this becoming less of a problem.

It's almost like regardless of how likely (or not) their man is to ever receive the ball they daren't take responsibility lest they then be blamed for the goal. I can understand that to a degree as that's probably my personality but I've never had any intention of becoming a professional footballer! Sometimes someone needs to take that chance and to put a boot through it!

Then you've got players like Johnson (and previously Hendrick) who simply can't track or are too lazy the movement of an opposing player, leaving them free to do what they want..

Combine the two and you get poor marking and static defending, which is exactly the cause of their 4th goal.

spot on it's happened in previous seasons with various managers remember Reading at home Hull at home in playoffs and numerous other times we have blown it,i think we just have to accept that the Derby way is to actually make things as difficult as possible for ourselves