Why We Need To Man Up

[Raminphilippines]

Is it an outpouring of disgruntlement or laughing at what GR has done to the team to stop our blood pressure going to high? I would say it is the later. 

I want Rowett out but never wanted him in the first place. 

Never wanted Mac gone, but he has and I can live with that.

 Pearson I thought was a mistake when his name was first linked to Derby.

Wassall in my mind should have been given another season and if I was Mel I would sack Rowett and replace him with Wassal.

Clement I thought should have been given more time. 

Quote

Perhaps now is the time to rally behind the club, accept that if Gary is to bring success to Derby, that it might take 2/3 windows to achieve 

In 2/3 Windows we will have a team that could win the walking football league and that is about it.

It is pretty clear Rowett is not going to bring us any success, so while we wait for Mel to realise the same I will do what I learnt from Derby supporters which is laugh when times are bad. 

[Jourdan]

When he was appointed, Rowett was spoken about in glowing terms. Here's a young, confident, hungry, promising, forward thinking manager who would flourish given greater resources and as such, Derby is a great fit. Here is someone who understands the values of the club, understands the league, and knows what the fans wanted and as such, it's a great fit.

Such statements are wide open to interpretation to the point where one could argue there has been no evidence of this promise, and certainly a dearth of evidence of him being a good fit for the club where the assumed philosophy of positive, attacking football is concerned.

I think the fan base would be a lot more forgiving if the club and the manager had set a clearer and more realistic tone for Rowett. 

Say that this is the biggest job and the biggest challenge of his career, say he's a long term appointment, say he's here to rebuild, talk about the changes of philosophy moving forward, say that difficult decisions will have to be made, say that patience will be needed, say it will take time and success might not be imminent.

Instead, unwavering and steely confidence has been projected as though Rowett had been there and done it. Promotion, quality squad, time to deliver has been the chatter. It's clear now that it amounted to false confidence.

Now more than ever, managing expectation is important and it's clear that the club have done a poor job in that regard, otherwise there wouldn't be such unrest less than 10 games into the season.

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

19 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

When he was appointed, Rowett was spoken about in glowing terms. Here's a young, confident, hungry, promising, forward thinking manager who would flourish given greater resources and as such, Derby is a great fit. Here is someone who understands the values of the club, understands the league, and knows what the fans wanted and as such, it's a great fit.

Such statements are wide open to interpretation to the point where one could argue there has been no evidence of this promise, and certainly a dearth of evidence of him being a good fit for the club where the assumed philosophy of positive, attacking football is concerned.

I think the fan base would be a lot more forgiving if the club and the manager had set a clearer and more realistic tone for Rowett. 

Say that this is the biggest job and the biggest challenge of his career, say he's a long term appointment, say he's here to rebuild, talk about the changes of philosophy moving forward, say that difficult decisions will have to be made, say that patience will be needed, say it will take time and success might not be imminent.

Instead, unwavering and steely confidence has been projected as though Rowett had been there and done it. Promotion, quality squad, time to deliver has been the chatter. It's clear now that it amounted to false confidence.

Now more than ever, managing expectation is important and it's clear that the club have done a poor job in that regard, otherwise there wouldn't be such unrest less than 10 games into the season.

Agree with that to a degree but the main issue is the truely dire football being played that seems to getting worse..

Reverse that,show some promise of improvement and a lot more people will invest in him....

[RoyMac5]

25 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

I think the fan base would be a lot more forgiving if the club and the manager had set a clearer and more realistic tone for Rowett. 

Perhaps Rowett could have set his own 'realistic' target.

[LeedsCityRam]

13 hours ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Bit narrow minded to fit your narrative there Leeds...

The third option are the fans who were indeed irate over Mac's 2nd dismissal but willing to give GR a chance but are then appalled by the teams performances under him,it being so far away from a Mac team that it's unrecognisable...and saw the hull game in a more realistic light rather than with that of the the gr fanboy who orgasmed at the thought of finally believing they had been right on the forum's all along.....

But were premature with that too..

Were you honestly prepared to give Rowett a chance though? He's had 18 league games in charge, of which 10 were at the dog end of a nothing campaign & yet we have folk calling for his head already. That's certainly not my idea of a 'fair crack of the whip'

Just to clarify, I'm not myopic about Rowett. I wasn't happy with our style/performance at Brentford & I'm as perplexed about the midfield situation as anyone. What I do realise though is that the club needs stability & that this is more important than playing styles, personalities or even short term results. Rowett's previous record is good enough for me to sit back & wait to see what he produces on a long term basis.

This season risks being an exact re-run of last season with all the attendant waste of time & money that involves. If we're still this bad this time next year then yes, it would be fair to question his position. I suspect we'll be significantly better though.

[Parsnip]

On 28/09/2017 at 09:18, 86 points said:

How many of you wanting Rowett out were also wanting Mac gone? Likewise Pearson, Wassall, Clement et al? Do you see a pattern there? 

How many of you have accused Mel of meddling in the club he owns but are encouraging him to dump Rowett only 9 games into the season? If he does, will he then be accused of meddling again should the new gaffer also bomb?

How many of you have bemoaned managers not being given a fair crack but are advocating firing Rowett as early as September?

And if you fall into any of the above categories, might you be part of the problem?

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

8 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Were you honestly prepared to give Rowett a chance though? He's had 18 league games in charge, of which 10 were at the dog end of a nothing campaign & yet we have folk calling for his head already. That's certainly not my idea of a 'fair crack of the whip'

Just to clarify, I'm not myopic about Rowett. I wasn't happy with our style/performance at Brentford & I'm as perplexed about the midfield situation as anyone. What I do realise though is that the club needs stability & that this is more important than playing styles, personalities or even short term results. Rowett's previous record is good enough for me to sit back & wait to see what he produces on a long term basis.

This season risks being an exact re-run of last season with all the attendant waste of time & money that involves. If we're still this bad this time next year then yes, it would be fair to question his position. I suspect we'll be significantly better though.

18 games!.......18 games and still absolutely no discernible pattern of play,settled team or formation.

I've been giving him chances and am continuing to do so but when is it coming together?

This isn't a re run of last season with its attendant waste of time and money because without the major change we had last season,it could be worse.

Hopefully tomorrow we will see day 1 of the rest of the season and it starts to click....

 

[Comrade 86]

On 9/28/2017 at 22:03, europia said:

That's assuming a simplistic trait in the mindset of those you point the finger at. It's just as likely that it's different people with different views at various points in time. For instance many who were pro Clement may not be so keen on Pearson or Rowett. Obviously their are numerous combinations along the same lines. 

I've asked the question 'how many' so there's no assumptions being made. We both know there's a good few though and we also both know that some are repeat offenders. I don't hold myself to a higher standard either, I just tend to be a lot less vocal. The gist of the post is centred on what I perceive as a lack of patience. Nothing else really. That's not to say I'm not impatient only that you'd not find me wanting shot of a manager after 9 games, irrespective of results.*

I'm actually genuinely fearful that Mel will pull the trigger and if he does, I think it'll be disastrous. You can call me silly if you like but I do think he is swayed by fans' opinions so the point I'm making is be careful what you wish for. I understand why folk are getting twitchy but if we win our game in hand, we'll only be a couple of points off the play-off slots. I'm not enjoying the football we are playing but equally, I don't see that we're a club in crisis either. I don't think that's me being a happy-clapper, I think it's just common sense. Manager's teams tend to reflect their footballing philosophy and if, for example. we brought in someone like Mac in order to revert to a style of football more pleasing to the fan-base, we'd need to rethink the playing roster again. As such, Rowett needs a chance to prove that those who have lost confidence are wide of the mark, or not as it may be.  I just wish that he was less 'pragmatic' in the way he wants us to play but if he gets us challenging for promotion then I guess many folk will happily overlook how we play the game.

* Disclaimer - Nigel Pearson excepted

[Alph]

10 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Were you honestly prepared to give Rowett a chance though? He's had 18 league games in charge, of which 10 were at the dog end of a nothing campaign & yet we have folk calling for his head already. That's certainly not my idea of a 'fair crack of the whip'

Just to clarify, I'm not myopic about Rowett. I wasn't happy with our style/performance at Brentford & I'm as perplexed about the midfield situation as anyone. What I do realise though is that the club needs stability & that this is more important than playing styles, personalities or even short term results. Rowett's previous record is good enough for me to sit back & wait to see what he produces on a long term basis.

This season risks being an exact re-run of last season with all the attendant waste of time & money that involves. If we're still this bad this time next year then yes, it would be fair to question his position. I suspect we'll be significantly better though.

Serious question, put that so you don't read it in a patronising tone , what has Rowett done at his previous jobs that has made an impression on so many Derby fans? 

I look and I don't see anything exceptional. Not his style of play, not his match record. 

He took over from Lee Clarke who Brum fans think of as their Paul Jewell. Don't get me wrong, he improved them. But it was nothing we don't see from a lot of managers out there. 

From Simon Grayson to Nigel Adkins to our rivals Mark Warburton. They've all lifted teams to a 'new level'. 

This is what amazes me. People will sit there and slate Mac. Complete clown, idiot and bottler.

Is what Rowett did at Brum much more amazing than taking us from 10th to 3rd, to promotion favourites? The transformation from when he stepped through the door to breaking club records. That's a clown. But what Rowett did at Brum... That's impressive.

Mac losing in the play offs after going from 10th to 3rd between September and May. Clown.

Rowett losing 2 (?) Play offs with Burton? That's an achievement.

It's always really bothered me. They hype around Rowett. I don't need him to have won the world cup with Alfreton to support him. So why do people overhype it. They did it with Pearson at Leicester.

(I got carried away. I'm not saying you over hyped him. I only meant to ask what is eye catching about his previous jobs.)

He won 39% of his games at Brum.

Currently at Derby it's 42%. If it drops to 39% barely a single soul will keep faith

[Comrade 86]

14 hours ago, Raminphilippines said:

It is pretty clear Rowett is not going to bring us any success, so while we wait for Mel to realise the same I will do what I learnt from Derby supporters which is laugh when times are bad. 

But that's the point though, isn't it? It's not clear at all. Brian Clough's first season saw us finish 18th in the old Div 2. Under the current regime and also taking into account fans' expectations, he'd have been gone by Christmas if not sooner and the most glorious period in the club's history would most likely never have occurred. You can argue that there was a discernible style, a sense of what Clough was trying to do if you like and you can also argue that Rowett's philosophy is not as clearly defined, but the point is we are so results oriented these days that even half a dozen poor performances can result in a manager being sacked. Frankly, I doubt even Rowett knows whether he can deliver on his promises and visions as yet, so how the hell can you?

 

[Raminphilippines]

1 hour ago, 86 points said:

But that's the point though, isn't it? It's not clear at all. Brian Clough's first season saw us finish 18th in the old Div 2. Under the current regime and also taking into account fans' expectations, he'd have been gone by Christmas if not sooner and the most glorious period in the club's history would most likely never have occurred. You can argue that there was a discernible style, a sense of what Clough was trying to do if you like and you can also argue that Rowett's philosophy is not as clearly defined, but the point is we are so results oriented these days that even half a dozen poor performances can result in a manager being sacked. Frankly, I doubt even Rowett knows whether he can deliver on his promises and visions as yet, so how the hell can you?

 

It is very clear. He is bringing in players past their sell by date, how can that be building for the future? It can't in 2/3 transfer windows they will be even slower than they are now. It is also clear from him adapting to a style of play that is more luck than skill, a style of play that means the law of averages are against us keeping the ball. 

If you want to  compare it with what Clough did lets take a look. 

Clough Signed 

McFarland age 19 I think.

O'Hare age 21

McGovern age 18 or 19

Hinton age 25

Thats building for the future. 

[Andicis]

Fans would tolerate Rowett much more in the football was more palatable.

Derby are almost hard to watch these days, the lack of possession, and style of football I find really dreadful. I just can't see Rowett's vision for where he plans to take the club, there seems to be a complete lack of fluency, and some signings that don't make a whole lot of sense. Tom Huddlestone being a prime example of this for me. He's a good player, and yet he makes no sense to sign if you aren't playing either 3 in midfield, or one runner that covers much more of the park. 

The fact is, at the end of the day football is about entertainment, and some of the crap Derby have played is just not all that entertaining. Moaning about fans moaning won't change the fact that, if we continue to play this football then the club will be shrouded in negativity again, and maybe that'll be a way to get rid of fair weathered fans. Seems like we're going into a Nigel Clough esque rebuild, but at least I liked the kind of football he was building towards. The main problem with Rowett for me is I'm just not enjoying the games as much as I have previously done, even when compared to Clough etc. Particularly when I compare it to the 2013/14 squad that we let slip away. A player like Dawkins would do wonders for Derby in the possession game. 

[wixman1884]

I'm just bored to death to be honest. A change of manager would probably remedy that.

I'm against our revolving door of managers, but that doesn't mean I'll tolerate anything. Getting rid of Pearson was absolutely the right thing to do, his performance was atrocious. McClaren and Clement less so. At least with McClaren we were entertained and we knew what he was trying to do, he just didn't always have the personnel at his disposal. I'm not 100% sure I'm going to be happy about Rowett's way, even if he's given the time to completely dismantle the successes of previous seasons.

[Comrade 86]

41 minutes ago, Raminphilippines said:

It is very clear. He is bringing in players past their sell by date, how can that be building for the future? It can't in 2/3 transfer windows they will be even slower than they are now. It is also clear from him adapting to a style of play that is more luck than skill, a style of play that means the law of averages are against us keeping the ball. 

If you want to  compare it with what Clough did lets take a look. 

Clough Signed 

McFarland age 19 I think.

O'Hare age 21

McGovern age 18 or 19

Hinton age 25

Thats building for the future. 

Patronising or what? Do you seriously suppose that any of the above is not blindingly obvious to nearly all of the posters on this forum? Even perennial happy-clappers like myself are decidedly underwhelmed with the clubs performances on and off the field so I'm sorry, but I think you are still missing my point. Firstly, to be brutally honest, I don't rate Rowett either. I never have. I think your appraisal of recent appointments was spot and I've no idea why there was such a clamour to get him into the club. I hope I'm wrong but I fear I'm not, so in most aspects, you and I are in agreement. Where my opinion differs is that I feel pretty certain that dumping him now would be catastrophic or at very least, more damaging than keeping him until the end of the season. Most decent managers are currently in gainful employment, for obvious reasons, and amongst the clamour for Rowett's head, I've not heard a single viable suggestion as to what happens when he's gone, nor valid options for a replacement. I'm sorry we dont agree on this aspect of the debate but I feel sure I'm as entitled to an opinion as you are. As for a fix, well senior management need to take a long, hard look at recruitment policies for players and managers alike, come up with a clear vision as to how we move forward and then bloody well stick with it. More kneejerk sackings are not going to solve anything. A period of stability where we regroup and actually plan for the future just might.

[Raminphilippines]

3 hours ago, 86 points said:

Patronising or what? Do you seriously suppose that any of the above is not blindingly obvious to nearly all of the posters on this forum? Even perennial happy-clappers like myself are decidedly underwhelmed with the clubs performances on and off the field so I'm sorry, but I think you are still missing my point. Firstly, to be brutally honest, I don't rate Rowett either. I never have. I think your appraisal of recent appointments was spot and I've no idea why there was such a clamour to get him into the club. I hope I'm wrong but I fear I'm not, so in most aspects, you and I are in agreement. Where my opinion differs is that I feel pretty certain that dumping him now would be catastrophic or at very least, more damaging than keeping him until the end of the season. Most decent managers are currently in gainful employment, for obvious reasons, and amongst the clamour for Rowett's head, I've not heard a single viable suggestion as to what happens when he's gone, nor valid options for a replacement. I'm sorry we dont agree on this aspect of the debate but I feel sure I'm as entitled to an opinion as you are. As for a fix, well senior management need to take a long, hard look at recruitment policies for players and managers alike, come up with a clear vision as to how we move forward and then bloody well stick with it. More kneejerk sackings are not going to solve anything. A period of stability where we regroup and actually plan for the future just might.

I was wondering if maybe if the club put  Wassall in charge for 4 games or even better 4 weeks without sacking Rowett to see if his style of play could turn things round. Surely if Rowett is confident his style of play is the best he would have no objection as if under Wassall we played worse he would be proven correct and his job would be safe, however if we preformed better under Wassall then Rowett should ever own up and say he got it wrong and resign, or say he will change things round and have Wassall as an adviser. 

[sage]

On 28/09/2017 at 11:18, 86 points said:

After recent results, there's been a general outpouring of disgruntlement, some of which I entirely understand. I do think however, that folk need to get a grip in some regards as there seems to be some intrinsic contradictions where a lot of folks' arguments are concerned. Core to this line of thought is the criticism being aimed at MM and GR. So here goes....

How many of you wanting Rowett out were also wanting Mac gone? Likewise Pearson, Wassall, Clement et al? Do you see a pattern there? 

How many of you have accused Mel of meddling in the club he owns but are encouraging him to dump Rowett only 9 games into the season? If he does, will he then be accused of meddling again should the new gaffer also bomb?

How many of you have bemoaned managers not being given a fair crack but are advocating firing Rowett as early as September?

And if you fall into any of the above categories, might you be part of the problem?

Perhaps now is the time to rally behind the club, accept that if Gary is to bring success to Derby, that it might take 2/3 windows to achieve and that kneejerk firing of managers along with poor signings, both partially I suspect, to appease a demanding fan-base, have been the biggest factors in taking us from the dizzy heights of 2013/14, to the kind of performance we saw on Tuesday night.

I'm not GR's biggest fan by a long stretch and some of Mel's decisions perplex me, if I'm honest, but can anyone seriously argue that changing direction yet again and so soon after the start of the season is going to offer any kind of remedy to our current woes? Can't see it myself. 

Excellent post though i would change the title to hypocrisy and hindsight.

[Steve How Hard?]

5 hours ago, 86 points said:

Patronising or what? Do you seriously suppose that any of the above is not blindingly obvious to nearly all of the posters on this forum? Even perennial happy-clappers like myself are decidedly underwhelmed with the clubs performances on and off the field so I'm sorry, but I think you are still missing my point. Firstly, to be brutally honest, I don't rate Rowett either. I never have. I think your appraisal of recent appointments was spot and I've no idea why there was such a clamour to get him into the club. I hope I'm wrong but I fear I'm not, so in most aspects, you and I are in agreement. Where my opinion differs is that I feel pretty certain that dumping him now would be catastrophic or at very least, more damaging than keeping him until the end of the season. Most decent managers are currently in gainful employment, for obvious reasons, and amongst the clamour for Rowett's head, I've not heard a single viable suggestion as to what happens when he's gone, nor valid options for a replacement. I'm sorry we dont agree on this aspect of the debate but I feel sure I'm as entitled to an opinion as you are. As for a fix, well senior management need to take a long, hard look at recruitment policies for players and managers alike, come up with a clear vision as to how we move forward and then bloody well stick with it. More kneejerk sackings are not going to solve anything. A period of stability where we regroup and actually plan for the future just might.

Good post. Pretty much sums up where I stand on the whole debate. Not a fan of his footballing philosophy but sacking him now wouldn't help the situation. Let's hope he finds or at very least stumbles upon a way forward. He's sending mixed messages to us as fans so I can only assume he's doing the same to the players. That's possibly a reason why they aren't fully buying into his ideas. 

[Van der MoodHoover]

Just now, Steve How Hard? said:

Good post. Pretty much sums up where I stand on the whole debate. Not a fan of his footballing philosophy but sacking him now wouldn't help the situation. Let's hope he finds or at very least stumbles upon a way forward. He's sending mixed messages to us as fans so I can only assume he's doing the same to the players. That's possibly a reason why they aren't fully buying into his ideas. 

I have not got clue 1 what his ideas are. And there seems no consensus on here amongst us.

So it doesn't surprise me at all if the players are confused. 

Don't think they're wilfully disobeying - just confused. 

[RoyMac5]

6 hours ago, 86 points said:

More kneejerk sackings are not going to solve anything. A period of stability where we regroup and actually plan for the future just might.

Thing is what is the stability to consist of? We (mostly) can't sign anyone until January and after that until summer. Between those periods what is it that Rowett will be trying to instil in the players?

More aggression is all I've been able to take from the last defeat. I thought that is what you were posting about when I read the thread title! Get the players to 'man up'!  I'm sure I don't want Rowett to have much more time with the squad if that's his main aim for them. It's all so Farmfoods as @kash_a_ram_a_ding_dongsaid!

[LeedsCityRam]

15 hours ago, Alpha said:

Serious question, put that so you don't read it in a patronising tone , what has Rowett done at his previous jobs that has made an impression on so many Derby fans? 

I look and I don't see anything exceptional. Not his style of play, not his match record. 

He took over from Lee Clarke who Brum fans think of as their Paul Jewell. Don't get me wrong, he improved them. But it was nothing we don't see from a lot of managers out there. 

From Simon Grayson to Nigel Adkins to our rivals Mark Warburton. They've all lifted teams to a 'new level'. 

This is what amazes me. People will sit there and slate Mac. Complete clown, idiot and bottler.

Is what Rowett did at Brum much more amazing than taking us from 10th to 3rd, to promotion favourites? The transformation from when he stepped through the door to breaking club records. That's a clown. But what Rowett did at Brum... That's impressive.

Mac losing in the play offs after going from 10th to 3rd between September and May. Clown.

Rowett losing 2 (?) Play offs with Burton? That's an achievement.

It's always really bothered me. They hype around Rowett. I don't need him to have won the world cup with Alfreton to support him. So why do people overhype it. They did it with Pearson at Leicester.

(I got carried away. I'm not saying you over hyped him. I only meant to ask what is eye catching about his previous jobs.)

He won 39% of his games at Brum.

Currently at Derby it's 42%. If it drops to 39% barely a single soul will keep faith

I don't think Rowett's previous record is exceptional but it certainly is impressive.

Burton were heading out of the Football League when he took them over - he left them as a team that finished in the playoffs for two years running. At the time, that was a significant achievement for a club of their (then) status. Birmingham were heading out of the Championship when he took them over & had just been beat 8-0 at home by Bournemouth - he steadied the ship & left a team on the fringes of the playoffs.

As a manager, all you can ask is that they leave the team in a better place than where they found it - if Rowett achieves that at Derby, we'll be in the Premiership & that excites me. And when recruiting a manager, surely the key thing you look for is evidence of them being successful in previous jobs. On that basis, I'm content giving Rowett time to get things right. And that doesn't change whatever the result is today or next week.

Re McClaren - his record at Derby is very good overall & it would be irrational to think him a 'clown' on that basis. I do think he's over-rated by some on here though as he's never built a team and/or achieved anything. When folk were discussing their top 5 managers since Clough, he was amongst Cox, Smith & Burley despite the fact that the first 3 started with very little & he inherited a very favourable situation & squad. Yes, 2013/14 was fantastic but ultimately he left us at the end of 14/15 outside the playoffs, not far off where Clough had the team.