A Tale of Two Teams (Derby & Brighton)

[Nuwtfly]

Hi all

It's been a fairly heated week or so, both on here at times and on Twitter, amongst us Derby County fans. After the impressive victory over Hull City, we've seen our side all but disappear in Bristol, and then put in a rather turgid, sluggish performance against Birmingham City. I've seen a few calling for Rowett's head (yes, really), and others vehemently defending him. But that's not really wanted to post about today. I want to talk about Premier League side, Brighton & Hove Albion.

When Chris Hughton took over The Seagulls, he inherited a side of OK-to-good players, who had tasted success, but not really achieved. Under Oscar Garcia, Brighton had made it to the play-offs, only to be cast aside by guess who? However, after a poor start to their 14/15 campaign, Garcia was gone, and the former Norwich and Newcastle boss came in. In case you didn't know/remember, things did not start well.

Much of Hughton's first season at Brighton was a battle against relegation. Fans could see a style developing (the one we now recognise which got them promoted) but the results were not great. They finished 20th in the table that season. Had they might the right choice in appointing him? At the time, it didn't matter. The Brighton Chairman was sticking with his man whether the fans liked it or not, showing to both the Brighton players already at the club, those to come, and the fanbase, that CH was their man.

The following season, Brighton finished 3rd, arguably deserving of Premier League football. Disaster in the play-offs saw them yet again fall to the wayside (remind you of anyone?) but was that going to see off CH? Nope. Brighton stuck by their man once again. The following season, Brighton go up through the automatics as one of the best teams in the league. Patience was rewarded, a real team fans could get behind and believe in was forged, and now the Seagulls are in the Premier League.

The point of all this, as you've probably tagged on to, is that there are some real lessons for our fanbase to be learnt here. What would the reaction from our fans be if we finished 20th this season? What would the reaction be if we finished third and lost in the plays-off again? Would we stick by our manager, as Brighton have done? Unfortunately, I think the answer is no. At the moment, fans can't handle losing or two games on the bounce. 

If Rowett is the man (and I think he is), then we need to afford him the kind of time someone like Chris Hughton got. We wants to change this football team and the way it plays from the bottom to the top, and that's not going to be done overnight. Or over one transfer window. Or even over one season. This is going to be a long process, and if we can all be patient and back our team, the rewards could be Premier League football.

Rant over.

[KBB]

That's not a rant. That's a well reasoned, knowledge post.

Patience is key. Amazing to think that clough rightly got time and patience from fans, mine did run out in the end, but certainly not after 12 games or even 2 seasons.

Eventually we have to dig in, put the shutters up and bring the club and fans together. We can't expect everything in one season. Time is key.

[maxjam]

Agree 100%

We're limited by not being able to adequately shift under performing players and FPP.  GR can only do so much with what he's got and transfer windows only come around every so often. If we keep chopping and changing every 6 months we'll end up with a few players that each new manager wants and a lot that he doesn't.

I'm happy to bite the bullet for the next season or two and give a manager a proper chance at building the squad he wants.

Patience is a virtue n all that

[Inglorius]

Tell Mel Morris all this.

[KBB]

1 minute ago, Inglorius said:

Tell Mel Morris all this.

Is it just Mel though or does he make snap decisions based on fans grumbling?

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Much of Hughton's first season at Brighton was a battle against relegation. Fans could see a style developing (the one we now recognise which got them promoted) but the results were not great.

So Rowett's as good as Hughton? And that's it then a 'style' developing? Easy init.

[kingsy1884]

A great post i agree whole heartedly but you watch if we lose to Brentford and Cardiff and for some people the sky will start falling down.

[G-Ram]

Garcia was gone even if they went up... regardless if he was to win the playoffs or lose in the playoffs he was going & the players knew that. He'd had a fall out with the chairman 

[duncanjwitham]

12 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Fans could see a style developing (the one we now recognise which got them promoted) but the results were not great.

If I could see this with us, and it was a style I wanted to watch every week, I would be giving Rowett all the time in the world to sort it. But I can't. And it's not.

[metalsheep02]

16 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Hi all

It's been a fairly heated week or so, both on here at times and on Twitter, amongst us Derby County fans. After the impressive victory over Hull City, we've seen our side all but disappear in Bristol, and then put in a rather turgid, sluggish performance against Birmingham City. I've seen a few calling for Rowett's head (yes, really), and others vehemently defending him. But that's not really wanted to post about today. I want to talk about Premier League side, Brighton & Hove Albion.

When Chris Hughton took over The Seagulls, he inherited a side of OK-to-good players, who had tasted success, but not really achieved. Under Oscar Garcia, Brighton had made it to the play-offs, only to be cast aside by guess who? However, after a poor start to their 14/15 campaign, Garcia was gone, and the former Norwich and Newcastle boss came in. In case you didn't know/remember, things did not start well.

Much of Hughton's first season at Brighton was a battle against relegation. Fans could see a style developing (the one we now recognise which got them promoted) but the results were not great. They finished 20th in the table that season. Had they might the right choice in appointing him? At the time, it didn't matter. The Brighton Chairman was sticking with his man whether the fans liked it or not, showing to both the Brighton players already at the club, those to come, and the fanbase, that CH was their man.

The following season, Brighton finished 3rd, arguably deserving of Premier League football. Disaster in the play-offs saw them yet again fall to the wayside (remind you of anyone?) but was that going to see off CH? Nope. Brighton stuck by their man once again. The following season, Brighton go up through the automatics as one of the best teams in the league. Patience was rewarded, a real team fans could get behind and believe in was forged, and now the Seagulls are in the Premier League.

The point of all this, as you've probably tagged on to, is that there are some real lessons for our fanbase to be learnt here. What would the reaction from our fans be if we finished 20th this season? What would the reaction be if we finished third and lost in the plays-off again? Would we stick by our manager, as Brighton have done? Unfortunately, I think the answer is no. At the moment, fans can't handle losing or two games on the bounce. 

If Rowett is the man (and I think he is), then we need to afford him the kind of time someone like Chris Hughton got. We wants to change this football team and the way it plays from the bottom to the top, and that's not going to be done overnight. Or over one transfer window. Or even over one season. This is going to be a long process, and if we can all be patient and back our team, the rewards could be Premier League football.

Rant over.

I agree with the sentiment here but I feel you have been selective with some of the facts.

Hughton joined them on 31st December 2014 when they were bottom 3 and on a run of 11 games without a win. Hughton had an immediate impact and was able to lead them away from relegation, albeit they only finished 20th.

At the start of the following season, after Hughton had been in situ for only 8 months Brighton went 21 games unbeaten, 21 games!

Hughton also came to Brighton with credentials that included past promotions.

I am all for giving Rowett time but I think that any comparison with Hughton's achievements at Brighton are tenuous to say the least.

If we are really going to be making an arguement for Rowett we should be considering what he has actually achieved to date. I can't see much (well I can't see anything actually) so far, hence my frustration with him but I agree that yet another change of manager would probably not be for the best.

[Nuwtfly]

14 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

If I could see this with us, and it was a style I wanted to watch every week, I would be giving Rowett all the time in the world to sort it. But I can't. And it's not.

We're only 8 games into this season. New players in the squad like Huddlestone, Lawrence, Davies and Wisdom are all still settling into the side. Other players are dealing with a new lease of life such as Vydra and Nugent, and others are getting used to a whole new system to what they're used to, such as Martin and Bradley Johnson. Do you really expect a clear and succinct style to have emerged this quickly? These things take time, and quite often getting it wrong to get it right.

For what it's worth, there's probably a few on here who would argue that they can see a style emerging. Energetic strikers are a thing now. As is a danger man in the number 10 role. Wingers who stick to their lines more, rather than the constant cutting inside we're used to in a 4-3-3. There's also the new dynamic in the centre of the park. Clearly we're looking for the Fabregas/Matic dynamic that many would have seen under Mourinho's Chelsea. One who can open up the opposition with passing, next to a brute who can protect the playmaker and break up opposition play. I think part of the reason why this hasn't worked consistently so far is that we've had Johnson trying to do the Matic role, when he is a more attack-minded player. But that's probably an argument for another thread.

Again, I would reiterate my point in the original post. You say to can't see a style yet, or at least not one you want to watch. Well, how about just be patient and see if this changes? No harm in it at all. 

[Pearl Ram]

46 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Hi all

It's been a fairly heated week or so, both on here at times and on Twitter, amongst us Derby County fans. After the impressive victory over Hull City, we've seen our side all but disappear in Bristol, and then put in a rather turgid, sluggish performance against Birmingham City. I've seen a few calling for Rowett's head (yes, really), and others vehemently defending him. But that's not really wanted to post about today. I want to talk about Premier League side, Brighton & Hove Albion.

When Chris Hughton took over The Seagulls, he inherited a side of OK-to-good players, who had tasted success, but not really achieved. Under Oscar Garcia, Brighton had made it to the play-offs, only to be cast aside by guess who? However, after a poor start to their 14/15 campaign, Garcia was gone, and the former Norwich and Newcastle boss came in. In case you didn't know/remember, things did not start well.

Much of Hughton's first season at Brighton was a battle against relegation. Fans could see a style developing (the one we now recognise which got them promoted) but the results were not great. They finished 20th in the table that season. Had they might the right choice in appointing him? At the time, it didn't matter. The Brighton Chairman was sticking with his man whether the fans liked it or not, showing to both the Brighton players already at the club, those to come, and the fanbase, that CH was their man.

The following season, Brighton finished 3rd, arguably deserving of Premier League football. Disaster in the play-offs saw them yet again fall to the wayside (remind you of anyone?) but was that going to see off CH? Nope. Brighton stuck by their man once again. The following season, Brighton go up through the automatics as one of the best teams in the league. Patience was rewarded, a real team fans could get behind and believe in was forged, and now the Seagulls are in the Premier League.

The point of all this, as you've probably tagged on to, is that there are some real lessons for our fanbase to be learnt here. What would the reaction from our fans be if we finished 20th this season? What would the reaction be if we finished third and lost in the plays-off again? Would we stick by our manager, as Brighton have done? Unfortunately, I think the answer is no. At the moment, fans can't handle losing or two games on the bounce. 

If Rowett is the man (and I think he is), then we need to afford him the kind of time someone like Chris Hughton got. We wants to change this football team and the way it plays from the bottom to the top, and that's not going to be done overnight. Or over one transfer window. Or even over one season. This is going to be a long process, and if we can all be patient and back our team, the rewards could be Premier League football.

Rant over.

Hi Gary, any chance you could tell us what you and Johnny fell out over ? 

[Woodley Ram]

I think it's very important to have a settled management team and a consistent way of playing. The players need to be part of that. That way we will move forward, in my view the stop start progress is due to the constant changes of managers, style and players

 

settled, patience and consistency is what we need 

[RiddingsRam]

Well said @Nuwtfly ! I think slowly the expectations of our over expectant fans is dwindling down and only then will Rowett be allowed to get on with the job in hand , your always going to get the odd idiot pipe up. I'm in no doubt that Rowetts the man to get this sorted. 

[NottsRam77]

50 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Hi all

It's been a fairly heated week or so, both on here at times and on Twitter, amongst us Derby County fans. After the impressive victory over Hull City, we've seen our side all but disappear in Bristol, and then put in a rather turgid, sluggish performance against Birmingham City. I've seen a few calling for Rowett's head (yes, really), and others vehemently defending him. But that's not really wanted to post about today. I want to talk about Premier League side, Brighton & Hove Albion.

When Chris Hughton took over The Seagulls, he inherited a side of OK-to-good players, who had tasted success, but not really achieved. Under Oscar Garcia, Brighton had made it to the play-offs, only to be cast aside by guess who? However, after a poor start to their 14/15 campaign, Garcia was gone, and the former Norwich and Newcastle boss came in. In case you didn't know/remember, things did not start well.

Much of Hughton's first season at Brighton was a battle against relegation. Fans could see a style developing (the one we now recognise which got them promoted) but the results were not great. They finished 20th in the table that season. Had they might the right choice in appointing him? At the time, it didn't matter. The Brighton Chairman was sticking with his man whether the fans liked it or not, showing to both the Brighton players already at the club, those to come, and the fanbase, that CH was their man.

The following season, Brighton finished 3rd, arguably deserving of Premier League football. Disaster in the play-offs saw them yet again fall to the wayside (remind you of anyone?) but was that going to see off CH? Nope. Brighton stuck by their man once again. The following season, Brighton go up through the automatics as one of the best teams in the league. Patience was rewarded, a real team fans could get behind and believe in was forged, and now the Seagulls are in the Premier League.

The point of all this, as you've probably tagged on to, is that there are some real lessons for our fanbase to be learnt here. What would the reaction from our fans be if we finished 20th this season? What would the reaction be if we finished third and lost in the plays-off again? Would we stick by our manager, as Brighton have done? Unfortunately, I think the answer is no. At the moment, fans can't handle losing or two games on the bounce. 

If Rowett is the man (and I think he is), then we need to afford him the kind of time someone like Chris Hughton got. We wants to change this football team and the way it plays from the bottom to the top, and that's not going to be done overnight. Or over one transfer window. Or even over one season. This is going to be a long process, and if we can all be patient and back our team, the rewards could be Premier League football.

Rant over.

Mate great post

incidently i watched brighton the other day against newcastle.

i was that impressed with the likes of bruno, dunk and stephens that i started to write a similarly themed post on here til my little one started playing up and i lost my trail of thought

what impressed, inspired and just made me think good for them.

was that theres was a fair portion of that 11 that were very much part of the side that got so well and truly beaten by us in that playoff semi final.

they could have had a massive player cull But they stuck by many of that squad 

bravo them

As a side note.

fricking love bruno, has been my favourite champ right back for the last 4 years, class act, so composed on the ball,  so to see him look like a fish in water in the prem is just nice to see, good luck to them

the virtues of patience,

please bare in mind people.... im going to empahsise this pre brentford and cardiff cos i aint confident

 

[superfit]

29 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

We're only 8 games into this season. New players in the squad like Huddlestone, Lawrence, Davies and Wisdom are all still settling into the side. Other players are dealing with a new lease of life such as Vydra and Nugent, and others are getting used to a whole new system to what they're used to, such as Martin and Bradley Johnson. Do you really expect a clear and succinct style to have emerged this quickly? These things take time, and quite often getting it wrong to get it right.

 

 If you want to compare Hughton with Rowett then you need to consider the following;

After only 8 games into Hughton's first full season Brighton were unbeaten and went to remain unbeaten until mid December and another 13 games later. It was a club record and the longest unbeaten run that season in the football league.

This was after losing 8 players in the summer window that had to be replaced with new signing, some from abroad that needed time to settle in the country, and still managed to mould them into an excellent team (''with a clear and succinct style'') alongside some good technical players (we used have some of these) that were already at the club, for the start of the season.

Perhaps Hughton knew what he was he was doing?  

 

        

[Nuwtfly]

3 minutes ago, superfit said:

 If you want to compare Hughton with Rowett then you need to consider the following;

After only 8 games into Hughton's first full season Brighton were unbeaten and went to remain unbeaten until mid December and another 13 games later. It was a club record and the longest unbeaten run that season in the football league.

This was after losing 8 players in the summer window that had to be replaced with new signing, some from abroad that needed time to settle in the country, and still managed to mould them into an excellent team (''with a clear and succinct style'') alongside some good technical players (we used have some of these) that were already at the club, for the start of the season.

Perhaps Hughton knew what he was he was doing?  

 

        

The post is more about patience, and allowing teams to develop and evolve under one manager, regardless of setbacks, rather than a straight-out comparison between two specific managers. Maybe I didn't make that clear enough in the original post. 

[Jayram]

52 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

If I could see this with us, and it was a style I wanted to watch every week, I would be giving Rowett all the time in the world to sort it. But I can't. And it's not.

You’ve absolutely nailed it mate, though I would add that Hughton arrived at Brighton with previous experience of taking a team to promotion from the Championship. GR has no such experience.

[i-Ram]

I think what Nuwtfly is saying in a roundabout way is that Brighton folk are a calm, patient, understanding people whereas Derby folk are generally a mardy, cantankerous, rabble-rousing bunch. I see his point.

[The_Sheriff]

I think it's fair to say most of us are happy to give rowett time. For me much more time then any manager in the past 10 years and It really would dishearten me from the club if Mel were to axe him.

whether he will do a 'houghton' is an interesting debate that of course has no correct answer.

i personally think we won't be that bad to finish 20th but that said won't be that good to have an impact then go onto promotion. 

As it stands I would say rowett was brave enough to make wholesale changes to the squad and playing style but I am not so sure he has done it successfully.  I think both styles appear to be just as affective as each other. When we play the old way it's slow and possession based without any intent however we had exciting dribblers and great passers of the ball. But with this way although fast and more direct (which I do prefer) we have left ourselves lacking pace and exposing ourselves to be over ran in midfield.

of course we need to give this style more time to see what rowett can do to combat the issue but I wouldn't be confident in saying this new way is the solution.

Regardless no matter what I hope we give him the chance to succeed. #RowettIn