Derby County, a club in decline

[NottsRam77]

13 hours ago, Jayram said:

That is an excellent summary of our current situation. The defeat today is more than just a bump in the road. It illustrated perfectly our decline as serious promotion contenders. Wolves were excellent today, but there are a number of better teams than them in this division who will do the same to us. We had no answer to their quality today and with the current squad I don't see that changing.

Rowett is an honest guy but he will not take us anywhere - his brand of football is not the kind that gets teams promoted at this level. You can have as many grafters as you want, but if like us you have a midfield that has no creative spark in it whatsoever, and no players with that bit of extra quality to change games you are doomed to spend the next couple of years drifting around in mid-table.

The attendance was poor today, certainly down on the last few seasons and I think that is probably a reflection of peoples disillusionment with things already as much other factors such as people still on holiday etc. The clubs transfer business this summer has been lacklustre after promises of quality replacements for those we sold, and our pursuit of certain targets has seemed a bit desparate at times, with a sense that the manager has been working his way down a list as each bid is rejected.

I am reconciled to the fact that as things stand we are just going to tread water and be on the outside looking in at this seasons promotion race. If we somehow manage to force our way in to the party then great, but without getting some real quality in before the transfer window shuts I really can't see it happening.

Agree with lot of what u say but

Burnley

grafters with a bit of quality

boro 

were certainly dull as dishwater had a midfield two of adam clayton and grant leadbitter epitmomise the ethic of grafting

to get our of this league u need grafters

the first thing jim smith did.... brought in robbie van der laan and daryll powell

the grafters, the legs

that said johnson and butterfield dont give us this 

the quality... willems and stimac came later

just cos we write 200 plus pages on forums about who we may or maynot be signing counts as nothing as to what we know the club are doing behind the scenes to get people in

id rather we sat and waited to get the right player/s in than gave up and got the next best that they were perhaps slightly more reserved about but... itll do cos it gives the fans a signing to talk about 

 

[ariotofmyown]

15 hours ago, Bris Vegas said:

You were delighted at offloading one of the best 17-year-old's in the country where he played a key role in helping Derby finish in the playoffs under George Burley, all for a paltry sum which soon went into the back pockets of the three amigos.

Good one 

Indeed, utter garbage and rubbish re-writing of history to try and back up a point.

[BramcoteRam84]

Frustrating thing about yesterday was the same problems we've talked about for 2 seasons were still there.

Predictable, no power or pace, no legs in midfield, safe passing playing in front of teams before the hopeful punt. Rowett knows the issues as he's talked about them, and is trying to fix them, but it's not easy when you have to sell to buy, premier league clubs pick up your best players and no one wants to buy the dross we signed in 2015/16.

4-3-3 with Butterfield and Johnson doesn't work. Martin isolated not supported by JB and BJ. Weimann trying to support Martin leaves massive holes down left hand side which our midfield 3 didn't have the legs to plug. Huddlestone was also massively exposed, he needs energy around him.

Rowett should and will question himself tactically for yesterday but with injuries to Thorne Vydra, and Bryson not fully fit he didn't really have any other options. There lies the issue, insufficient overhaul of the squad has taken place to give us the right options and balance to be successful in this league.

Rowett knows what's needed. He wants to follow a Burnley model, they could play good football when needed but also had the fighting qualities to grind out results. But it takes time and I think it will take 1 possibly even 2 more transfer windows to get the squad he wants, and every year with parachute payments it's more difficult to compete.

Rowett has to be given to the end of his contract and if he is I think we'll be competitive. If he's sacked and we continue the cycle of the past 2 seasons, we'll continue to fall back and eventually be looking over our shoulders.

As for this season, I still think we can be competitive with a couple of signings, everyone fit and a different system (4-2-3-1) we will be in the mix for top 6. But people need to appreciate we're in a bit of a mess due to poor signings from 2 years ago and due to constantly changing managers. There is no silver bullet that will fix things immediately. Not achieving promotion this season is not failure.

But it's still better than where we were at in 2009 and I think Rowett has in some ways an easier job than Clough had, but more difficult in that expectation has risen.

[Jayram]

I don't disagree with what you say mate, but after only two games you get the impression that we are already in the same place as we were last season and that is beyond disappointing. There is zero graft or quality in that midfield - it wasn't there last season and it's not there again this time around. The difference between us and the likes of Burnley/Boro is that they had steel and mental toughness within their teams as well as that bit of quality. Our lot have none of that.

We have no idea what is going on behind the scenes with transfers but the perception is that we have put all our eggs in one basket with Lawrence and now that particular deal hasn't come off Rowett is going down his list desperately trying to find a stellar signing. Trouble is, we need a new midfielder, new wide players, and they need to be better than what we have, and there doesn't appear to be anything happening to address that. 

If Rowett can address this before the transfer window or go some way to doing so then I think fans will get behind him, but if we go into September with what we have now, I can see a real drop off in support. As they say, it's the hope that kills you!

 

 

[LazloW]

Declining from where?  Where are we declining too?

We have been in the Championship for what 10 years?  Never really threatened with relegation in that time and have flirted with promotion a couple of times.  That's what we are; a Championship club, albeit one with hopes, aspirations and the means, at least in theory, to get promotion at some point.  Therefore we expect to be challenging near the top of the table.  After two games - even yesterday's abysmal performance - nobody can say for sure we won't be in the same position we have been for the last few years.  

Even if we have a season like last, then we won't have declined; we will have been in the same position we have been in for most of the last decade and many years before that too; certainly whatever our expectations we have been in this league and pretty average for the majority of our history.  At worst, we will have 'declined' from promotion contenders to mid table mediocrity.  Not a huge fall from grace and not really 'decline'. Clubs in real decline are those who end up in League 1, League 2, receivership, go out of business, etc etc.  None of this seems likely at this time.  All in all, just another melodramatic over reaction to a very very poor performance.

 

[Jimbo Ram]

I hope GR turns things around, been and seen this all before. People were calling for Jim Smith's head after an awful start in our promotion year. Things can change very quickly. A fluky 1-0 win on Tuesday and we could be on our way. However, I must say that GR has gone about things slightly differently than I would have done but what do I know? He seems to have focused his attention on changing our defence. Despite all the negativity about Christie, Keogh and Pearce, the fact is over the last few seasons we have been quite good defensively, let in very few comparatively. If it aint broke don't fix it. Are we much that better now defensively? The major problems we have had is creating and scoring goals. We scored amongst the fewest in the division last year. So that is where I would have focused my attention first and brought in 2 or 3 offensive players to change that. But I think GR has compounded the problem by getting rid of our two most creative players in Ince and Hughes. That I just don't get.

[RamNut]

Pearson was doing the right thing?

ikechi anya for £4m ??

[Gypsy Ram]

11 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Decline, or rationalization after we failed in the big gambles?

It doesn't make the current situation better, but settling in for a few seasons of mediocrity as we get things back on a more reasonable footing is about all we can do.

I view Rowett as the new Nigel Clough basically, a bit more hope and ambition, but essentially similar, we need to do just enough whilst evolving the squad back into a genuine contender.

I dont disagree with the OP in a lot of things, but I think in context, the trough we're heading down will lead to a new crest in time.

I don't mind mediocrity if we actively looked at bringing young hungry players through instead of over 30s, looked to the youth setup and played the right formation for the right team. I don't see any evidence of that happening.

I can't view rowett as anything and I'm afraid he's incapable of getting a team playing some slick style football.

Another point that has been made, we don't know if the incoming are the managers (over Pearson and Clement) periods were driven by the coach or the recruitment team. My hunch was that the coach at the time was just presented with the players.

[NottsRam77]

43 minutes ago, BramcoteRam84 said:

Frustrating thing about yesterday was the same problems we've talked about for 2 seasons were still there.

Predictable, no power or pace, no legs in midfield, safe passing playing in front of teams before the hopeful punt. Rowett knows the issues as he's talked about them, and is trying to fix them, but it's not easy when you have to sell to buy, premier league clubs pick up your best players and no one wants to buy the dross we signed in 2015/16.

4-3-3 with Butterfield and Johnson doesn't work. Martin isolated not supported by JB and BJ. Weimann trying to support Martin leaves massive holes down left hand side which our midfield 3 didn't have the legs to plug. Huddlestone was also massively exposed, he needs energy around him.

Rowett should and will question himself tactically for yesterday but with injuries to Thorne Vydra, and Bryson not fully fit he didn't really have any other options. There lies the issue, insufficient overhaul of the squad has taken place to give us the right options and balance to be successful in this league.

Rowett knows what's needed. He wants to follow a Burnley model, they could play good football when needed but also had the fighting qualities to grind out results. But it takes time and I think it will take 1 possibly even 2 more transfer windows to get the squad he wants, and every year with parachute payments it's more difficult to compete.

Rowett has to be given to the end of his contract and if he is I think we'll be competitive. If he's sacked and we continue the cycle of the past 2 seasons, we'll continue to fall back and eventually be looking over our shoulders.

As for this season, I still think we can be competitive with a couple of signings, everyone fit and a different system (4-2-3-1) we will be in the mix for top 6. But people need to appreciate we're in a bit of a mess due to poor signings from 2 years ago and due to constantly changing managers. There is no silver bullet that will fix things immediately. Not achieving promotion this season is not failure.

But it's still better than where we were at in 2009 and I think Rowett has in some ways an easier job than Clough had, but more difficult in that expectation has risen.

Absolutely nailed it mate

one of the best and sensible posts iv read on here for a while

All id add imo its a harder job than smith had

smith had the likes of pembridge, kitson and short etc etc

and although these guys had failed to deliver in much the same way they could still be marketed as young untapped potential

The likes of pembridge and short actually went on to fashion quite reapectable careers in the top flight

now we have the same collection but most are knocking on the door of old age for a footballer and have minimal resell value ... oh and there all on big contracts that no one else seemingly wants to pay for a nick blackman - doh 

[NottsRam77]

24 minutes ago, Jayram said:

I don't disagree with what you say mate, but after only two games you get the impression that we are already in the same place as we were last season and that is beyond disappointing. There is zero graft or quality in that midfield - it wasn't there last season and it's not there again this time around. The difference between us and the likes of Burnley/Boro is that they had steel and mental toughness within their teams as well as that bit of quality. Our lot have none of that.

We have no idea what is going on behind the scenes with transfers but the perception is that we have put all our eggs in one basket with Lawrence and now that particular deal hasn't come off Rowett is going down his list desperately trying to find a stellar signing. Trouble is, we need a new midfielder, new wide players, and they need to be better than what we have, and there doesn't appear to be anything happening to address that. 

If Rowett can address this before the transfer window or go some way to doing so then I think fans will get behind him, but if we go into September with what we have now, I can see a real drop off in support. As they say, it's the hope that kills you!

 

 

Agree completely with that mate 

fair comment ?

[Jack Willow]

58 minutes ago, LazloW said:

Declining from where?  Where are we declining too?

We have been in the Championship for what 10 years?  Never really threatened with relegation in that time and have flirted with promotion a couple of times.  That's what we are; a Championship club, albeit one with hopes, aspirations and the means, at least in theory, to get promotion at some point.  Therefore we expect to be challenging near the top of the table.  After two games - even yesterday's abysmal performance - nobody can say for sure we won't be in the same position we have been for the last few years.  

Even if we have a season like last, then we won't have declined; we will have been in the same position we have been in for most of the last decade and many years before that too; certainly whatever our expectations we have been in this league and pretty average for the majority of our history.  At worst, we will have 'declined' from promotion contenders to mid table mediocrity.  Not a huge fall from grace and not really 'decline'. Clubs in real decline are those who end up in League 1, League 2, receivership, go out of business, etc etc.  None of this seems likely at this time.  All in all, just another melodramatic over reaction to a very very poor performance.

 

I agree with you completely, the Club self is not in decline, it's the First Team which is really not good. It's ever since the Wembley finale in 2014, it is so.

[Ninos]

The myth that a few signings will fix our woes is just that, a myth. Didn't Mcclaren  Clement Pearson all think that too? We have a huge bloated squad now with many not playing or injured (and I use the word injured loosely". Bloated wages they've got fancy cars but little ambition and no team interested in them and they're on long contracts. Even Mcclaren stuck us with a washed up comfort seeking Martin for how many more seasons? And we couldn't persuade Baird and Bent to go the way of Camara ? Of course not. Now we've added more age and contracts to shore up a defence that didn't need fixing. The best hope we have are the excellent youth: Rawson Lowe McDonald Elsnik Zanzala Jacobsen Bennett etc but they are totally blocked because of the overstaffing issue. Now we get brushed aside so what do you think the players left out are thinking. They either lose interest or get angry. Rowett called for a squad reduction and all he's done is remove our best players. 

Yes we are in decline.

We'd be better off just releasing players and taking financial hits so that we have a better problem: too small a squad like Pulis. Rely on the youth more. Young players get chances and fans get off their seats to see the future. Desire back.

[Seth's left foot]

This season is going to be another bundle of laughs on here by the look of it ?

I hope we don't beat Preston nob end and 

put any positivity into certain fans.

[Shuff264]

f****** hell, what a post two games in.

When was the last time we started a season well? By my count it was Stevie Macs follow up season after the play offs, maybe Clements start when we drew all the games could be described as ok but we always start slow.

[Derbylad92]

1 hour ago, Shuff264 said:

f****** hell, what a post two games in.

When was the last time we started a season well? By my count it was Stevie Macs follow up season after the play offs, maybe Clements start when we drew all the games could be described as ok but we always start slow.

Yes we start slow but there's usually a bit of hope I can't see us improving under GR I hope I'm wrong but I really can't even if we sign Lawrence I can't see us improving! I just hope george Thorne can get fit asap and be his old self, him and tom Huddlestone in midfield in a 4231 and hopefully we get kent then hopefully vydra can fill the gap central 

[1967Ram]

I think Mel got it right once when he sacked Pearson (Ostrich)

[Pearl Ram]

...after getting it wrong by appointing the halfwit in the first place. 

[WhiteHorseRam]

Could quite easily get 9 out of 9 points in the next three games .... then  will we be 'Derby County -  a Club on the Rise'???

If you want easy street go and support Man City with their massive brand and wallet.

COYR

[Gritstone Ram]

Looking at Sunderlands result today our draw looks like a decent point. 

I think we got it wrong yesterday but I heard GR say on the radio that the lads are showing different qualities in training to how they are performing on the pitch. I think GR needs to pick the team based upon match performances rather than training.

[1967Ram]

28 minutes ago, WhiteHorseRam said:

Could quite easily get 9 out of 9 points in the next three games .... then  will we be 'Derby County -  a Club on the Rise'???

If you want easy street go and support Man City with their massive brand and wallet.

COYR

Hope your right mate. Like most on here, swapping who I support isn't an option. Let's hope we see signs of improvement sooner rather than later. COYR