Same Old, Same Old...

[Ewe Ram]

Suddenly we're in a parallel universe where the league position and number of points is predicted on a whole 90 mins of football. What's tonight's lottery numbers? 

[RoyMac5]

7 hours ago, Obi1Kenobi0 said:

Unless we add creativity in midfield and out wide we'll finish  a workmanlike 7th or 8th.  Could do with an Ince and Hughes.  Oh wait....

This. Doesn't matter who is up front with this behind them.

[Bridgford Ram]

8 hours ago, Dave Mackay Ate My Hamster said:

The thing about Martin is he WAS a "1 in 2" player, now he's becoming a "1 in 4" player. If the team isn't set up totally using him as the fulcrum point he can be totally anonymous in games. I know it's an odd comparison, but can you imagine if Messi or Ronaldo only performed in one game in four for their clubs, how long would they last? I'm tiring of him, to be honest. If a genius falls down easily, you forgive it because of his otherwise genius. 

As decent a performer Martin HAS been for us, I'm reluctantly quickly coming to the conclusion he's past his sell by. Not a player for a promotion seeking side.

If you play 4-4-2 you can afford for either of your strikers to suffer dips in form.

If you structure your team to work towards a talisman striker, make sure he's Messie-esque ( for the division/level you play at ).

If he's a " 1 in 4 " striker, you've got a major problem. Add to that, if his support strikers/wingers are also 1 in 3/ or 4 players... and you're paying them shed loads for your league, so that the " hunger " is questionable.....

Therein lies our attacking problems.....

To me it is the most obvious thing when watching Derby that if you focus every attack through Martin offering him options when he receives the ball he will be great and Derby will play well.  If you play Martin and don't use him as the absolute focus he becomes a liability because he won't and can't run behind a defence.  Basically either play to his strengths or play someone else.

[RamNut]

4 hours ago, Sparkle said:

Sunderland actually created nothing themselves, we were reasonable for all their opportunities 

we should/could have scored through Martin/Nugent we nearly scored through Keogh and Davies could easily have had a penalty plus Russell got himself into some great positions ( which nobody else did) from the wing only to let himself down with his cut backs apart from the one in the first half which we scored from 

Anyone notice that they hit the post?

[Sparkle]

10 minutes ago, RamNut said:

Anyone notice that they hit the post?

Yes they hit the post and did you see Johnson completely miscontrol the ball straight to their forward to run clean through on our goal resulting ultimately in them hitting the post 

[King Kevin]

4 hours ago, Igorwasking said:

Bring Toral and Lawrence into that team - and the control, balance and threat increases ten fold. Rowett should try doing that (oh wait, he is trying to do that!).

So everyone relax - it was the first game, with the personnel we had available - first game in September is the right time to judge how we might fare this season.

I agree ,my worry is we won't get them and end up with second rate choice's.

[TroyDyer]

I thought it was alright. Away from home to a team with decent players, a decent manager and a massive point to prove. 

We are still a couple of players away from the finished article but thought we looked a lot better when Vydra on. 

Personally I would rather have Bryson than Butterfield but GR went with a plan and if CM had been his usual cool self, we'd be top of the league. 

I think we need to be a bit more realistic about where we are. Personally I think we are 2 years from a real automatic promotion push, and if we play with heart, play attacking football, and improve month on month, I'm fine with that. 

[Wolfie20]

2 minutes ago, TroyDyer said:

I thought it was alright. Away from home to a team with decent players, a decent manager and a massive point to prove. 

We are still a couple of players away from the finished article but thought we looked a lot better when Vydra on. 

Personally I would rather have Bryson than Butterfield but GR went with a plan and if CM had been his usual cool self, we'd be top of the league. 

I think we need to be a bit more realistic about where we are. Personally I think we are 2 years from a real automatic promotion push, and if we play with heart, play attacking football, and improve month on month, I'm fine with that. 

Come off it!!! We need to get promoted this season - if we don't then get rid of all the rubbish players, give the manager the bums' rush then spend, spend, spend on 'flavour of the month replacements.........

 

........or not!

[Carnero]

12 hours ago, Parsnip said:

Is there any limit to how long our names can be? If I'd known we could go as big as @Dave Mackay Ate My Hamster I'd have come up with something way cooler than parsnip.

Parsnips perhaps?

[Van der MoodHoover]

It's a really difficult position for Mel I think.

On the one hand,  each season we spend in the championship currently seems to cost him about  £13m? If I've understood the accounting details correctly. 

But he must realise that the current crop are unlikely to get us up as is.

And that the said current crop do not appear to be valuable enough to finance a rebuild. And may even be immovable which is the worst of all world's. 

So whichever way he looks he's going to be asked for a further wedge. On top of all the cash already poured in.

So does he stick or twist? Very difficult. 

[Uptherams]

What I take away from that performance is that Rowett is encouraging Russell to be direct again. Huddlestone can and will control many games but also protects the back four well. Martin and Nugent will be burying those chances in games to come. Vydra looks interested. Wisdom is cool as a cucumber. He probably got forward more last night than he did in half a dozen games combined when he was on loan here. Davies is a solid defender.

While we were under pressure from crosses again, we didn't concede and we have so much strength in the air to deal with our biggest weakness. We looked fitter than them by the final whistle. I look forward to us wearing teams down. 

Things I hope improve are what the other two central midfielders offer and we need to get that player who makes up for the loss of Ince and Hughes. Goals, assists, link up play and creative spark. 

[Obi1Kenobi0]

7 minutes ago, HantsRam said:

It's a really difficult position for Mel I think.

On the one hand,  each season we spend in the championship currently seems to cost him about  £13m? If I've understood the accounting details correctly. 

But he must realise that the current crop are unlikely to get us up as is.

And that the said current crop do not appear to be valuable enough to finance a rebuild. And may even be immovable which is the worst of all world's. 

So whichever way he looks he's going to be asked for a further wedge. On top of all the cash already poured in.

So does he stick or twist? Very difficult. 

Much of it self inflicted.  For a man used to long term strategy we are suffering for previous panic buys and overpaying.  In fact add panic sackings to that as well.  I can't see Mel sticking as he's never done that yet.  Be it a new manager or new signings.  There is money there for Rowett, albeit at more sensible levels.  The question should be new philosophy or old philosophy. Personally I liked how we were building under Clough. If we are not buying at any cost then we have to accept we may well not commit further funds until such a time we have a player who is an improvement.  It's the right approach just frustrating.

[Van der MoodHoover]

Just now, Obi1Kenobi0 said:

Much of it self inflicted.  For a man used to long term strategy we are suffering for previous panic buys and overpaying.  In fact add panic sackings to that as well.  I can't see Mel sticking as he's never done that yet.  Be it a new manager or new signings.  There is money there for Rowett, albeit at more sensible levels.  The question should be new philosophy or old philosophy. Personally I liked how we were building under Clough. If we are not buying at any cost then we have to accept we may well not commit further funds until such a time we have a player who is an improvement.  It's the right approach just frustrating.

I'm not fussed about a season or 2 rebuilding but that is effectively committing Mel to underwrite losses of 20m+ whilst all is sorted out. Hope that he swallows hard and is up for it. 

[DRBee]

12 hours ago, Dave Mackay Ate My Hamster said:

The thing about Martin is he WAS a "1 in 2" player, now he's becoming a "1 in 4" player. If the team isn't set up totally using him as the fulcrum point he can be totally anonymous in games. I know it's an odd comparison, but can you imagine if Messi or Ronaldo only performed in one game in four for their clubs, how long would they last? I'm tiring of him, to be honest. If a genius falls down easily, you forgive it because of his otherwise genius. 

As decent a performer Martin HAS been for us, I'm reluctantly quickly coming to the conclusion he's past his sell by. Not a player for a promotion seeking side.

If you play 4-4-2 you can afford for either of your strikers to suffer dips in form.

If you structure your team to work towards a talisman striker, make sure he's Messie-esque ( for the division/level you play at ).

If he's a " 1 in 4 " striker, you've got a major problem. Add to that, if his support strikers/wingers are also 1 in 3/ or 4 players... and you're paying them shed loads for your league, so that the " hunger " is questionable.....

Therein lies our attacking problems.....

If you can't see the link between poor midfield performers and Martin being starved of the ball, your analysis is a bit deficient. OK Martin missed a good chance but that doesn't explain why we only drew. Midfield performers who give the ball away so frequently as Johnson and Butterfield, or who cannot spot opportunities to pass forwards are too big a handicap if we want to be a top six contender.

Johnson was tried endlessly on the left side of midfield in his first season and it didn't work then .

[PistoldPete2]

The set up was wrong for us to win the game but we got a point when maybe last year we would have lost. The bigger challenge is to win our home games which we did mostly last year. Now tho we don't have ince or hughes so we need a better creative spark and more movement in midfield than we saw last night. Vydra looked sharp so he will improve things but we need more in midfield and on the wing. 

[Bessie1]

8 hours ago, Bridgford Ram said:

To me it is the most obvious thing when watching Derby that if you focus every attack through Martin offering him options when he receives the ball he will be great and Derby will play well.  If you play Martin and don't use him as the absolute focus he becomes a liability because he won't and can't run behind a defence.  Basically either play to his strengths or play someone else.

Uwe Rosler said the way to beat Derby is to stop the ball getting to Martin. His teams had a good record against us. I doubt he's the only one to have worked this out.

[JW37]

OUT: Roos(25), Shackell(33), Forsyth(28), Olsson(28), Bryson(29), Russell(27), Weimann(26), Blackman(27), Bent(33)

Roos - Won't make it

Shackell - Don't think he'll come back from injury and has become too tentative due to injury/lack of pace

Forsyth - Just don't rate him I think there are better in this division

Olsson - Could go but could be back up but I'd rather Lowe become more established

Bryson - Time to go will never be the same player he was 13/14 only gets in the side with running and being here a while

Russell - Same ^

Weimann - Could stay but I'd rather let Bennett become more established

Blackman - Never had a chance but I don't think he'll ever make it

Bent - Time to go you're a worse team with him in but he'll score

BENCH: Mitchell(21), Pearce(27), Baird(35), Lowe(20), Thorne(23), Butterfield(27), Anya(28), Bennett(20), Nugent(32)

FIRST TEAM: Carson(31), Wisdom(24), Keogh(30), Davies(32), Huddlestone(30), Johnson(29), Vydra(25), Martin(28)

GK - 2 - Carson, Mitchell

RB - 2 - Wisdom, Baird (Anya)

CB - 3 - Keogh, Davies, Pearce (Wisdom, Baird)

LB - 1 - Lowe (Anya)

DM - 2 - Huddlestone, Thorne (Johnson)

AM - 3 - Vydra, Johnson, Butterfield (Nugent)

W - 2 - Bennett, Anya

ST - 2 - Martin, Nugent (Vydra)

NEED: 1 Left back, 2 Wingers

Build up the rest of the squad with youth players suxh as Rawson, MacDonald, Guy etc

That would leave a squad of around 23

Keogh - Needs to cut out the mistakes and late challenges and show more leadership on the pitch (Davies should help with both)

Lowe - Needs to stay fit and become more first team regular 

Thorne - Needs to stay fit and fulfill (massive) potential 

Johnson - Needs to find his preferred position (imo further forward goal scoring midfielder)

Butterfield - Needs to take more control of games and find his preferred position (either deep lying playmaker or advanced goal scoring playmaker)

Would like to see: 

4-2-3-1

                         Carson

Wisdom     Keogh      Davies      New

         Huddlestone    Johnson

New                  Vydra               New

                         Martin

Mitchell, Pearce, Baird, Butterfield, New, Bennett/Anya, Nugent

Solid back 5

Huddletone dictating play Johnson winning the ball and getting forward

3 Interchanging and getting in behind Martin

Martin being Martin with Nugent to come on if needed

 

 

[Mr Tibbs]

18 hours ago, Dave Mackay Ate My Hamster said:

The thing about Martin is he WAS a "1 in 2" player, now he's becoming a "1 in 4" player. If the team isn't set up totally using him as the fulcrum point he can be totally anonymous in games. I know it's an odd comparison, but can you imagine if Messi or Ronaldo only performed in one game in four for their clubs, how long would they last? I'm tiring of him, to be honest. If a genius falls down easily, you forgive it because of his otherwise genius. 

As decent a performer Martin HAS been for us, I'm reluctantly quickly coming to the conclusion he's past his sell by. Not a player for a promotion seeking side.

If you play 4-4-2 you can afford for either of your strikers to suffer dips in form.

If you structure your team to work towards a talisman striker, make sure he's Messie-esque ( for the division/level you play at ).

If he's a " 1 in 4 " striker, you've got a major problem. Add to that, if his support strikers/wingers are also 1 in 3/ or 4 players... and you're paying them shed loads for your league, so that the " hunger " is questionable.....

Therein lies our attacking problems.....

 

Odd?! That's probably the worst comparison I've ever seen pal!

I can't imagine Messi or Ronnie as one in four strikers because they wouldn't be Messi or Ronnie would they. 

[ramblur]

9 hours ago, HantsRam said:

I'm not fussed about a season or 2 rebuilding but that is effectively committing Mel to underwrite losses of 20m+ whilst all is sorted out. Hope that he swallows hard and is up for it. 

May not be quite as bad as that because of the uncertainty over the 15/16 admin expenses increase of £7m.In our case admin expenses can probably be best described as anything which isn't a direct operating cost.As our main purpose is to operate a side in the League (and hopefully better),then my guess is that these would mainly feature first team squad players' wages,amortisation,wages of first team manager/coaching staff,depreciation of ground (depreciation can be a difficult thing,and can lead to theological debates,but in this case we obviously need a stadium in which to operate) .

The Academy costs would be interesting,but I wouldn't see them as direct operating costs as you don't need the Academy to be able to field a senior team.The point of all of this is to consider compensation paid to former managers/coaches and their staff.I wouldn't see these as direct operating costs,as such costs don't contribute directly to the operation of a first team.

I think it would be almost certain that we paid out compo in 15/16,and again in 16/17 (but in relation to different personnel ),but hopefully that won't arise again this year,and I would expect indirect costs (admin expenses) to fall as a result.Although we haven't made a great deal of headway yet,there's a clear desire to reduce the players' wage bill,which again should see a further fall in overall costs. 

[Derby blood]

Same old same old moaning fans , after one game lol, give me a break , Martin to be dropped Forsythe to be sold some on here talk so much s****, it's one game, the league takes no shape antil after ten to twelve games are played, get a quality wide man in , and a midfielder then the top two is a strong possibility, if not then top six is still a possibility, let's have some positivity, it was a good solid point away from home against a ex Premiership side. In mr Rowett I trust, as fans it's our jobs to in courage and back the team, please all you boo boys, we need your support on Saturday, not your moaning and booing.