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Birmingham after Johnny Russell

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DCFC1388

DCFC1388

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Oook so here's the big question is Russell really out of form ? If you just look at his goals and assist return this season you could argue he is but that doesn't take into account a couple factors, namely that Russell plays his best football on the RW and that our side is unbalanced and needs work to be as good as previous seasons.

LW:

  • Apps 48
  • Mins 3772
  • Average Rating 7.04
  • Goals 6
  • Assists 8

RW:

  • Apps 45 
  • Mins 3687
  • Average Rating 7.24
  • Goals 15
  • Assists 6

The above is stats gathered from whoscored.com over the seasons 13/14, 14/15, 15/16, 16/17 for Russell. When selecting position for stats it appears whoscored counts sub appearances as it's own separate position, so I presume the above is just games where Russell started. It is my opinion from watching Russell is that he is better on the right where he can cut inside and I believe the above stats lend evidence to that view. He certainly has been more productive on the right. 

Regarding the team balance: Russell hasn't been as productive as usual this season but I think it's very important to note that the rest of the team hasn't been as productive either bar Ince (Who is by the far the exception rather than the rule). The two best examples are Bent and Butterfield; Butterfield grabbed 7 goals in 38 apps (9 sub apps) last year but is yet to grab a goal this year and Darren Bent is one of the most prolific goalscorers in the english game yet only has 3 goals in 22 (10 sub apps) apps this year. Have they both become unproductive players along with Russell or do the problems in the side run a tad deeper. McClaren has returned and we have been better but we are not the same side we were before underneath him in both quality and tactical cohesion.

Personally I'd rather back Russell to come good as a squad player when McClaren fixes the issues with rather than the others because he has a better track record and in particularly his better track record comes playing in the system McClaren is working towards rebuilding.

Nice stats, they do clearly show he is more productive on the RW but that in itself is a problem as there is no chance of him taking Ince's place. I have no problem with Russell as a squad player but at the same time if we can make money on a squad player then i'm all for it.

I do think Nugent will eventually become first choice forward so it will be interesting how he effects the centre mid's and wingers as Martin helped their game but I dont think Bent does.

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brady1993

brady1993

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Posted
44 minutes ago, England Ram said:

You Sir are spot on. 

For me the recruitment team has gotten off far too easily in most of the discussions around here lately. 

Regardless of managers wanting different players etc you'd think identification and suitability would be what they are good at. 

I'd be asking Sam and Mel if they were happy with what we've had so far. If they put the blame firmly on the previous managers then.......ok, ish. But I'm concerned for our lack of quality even those given only a short time to show it so far. 

Ehh the problem is it's kinda hard to know how much they are to blame for our recent transfer inadequacies and how much it's down to the manager in charge at the time. After all the manager sets the criteria for what kinda player to look for and has final say on all ingoings and outgoings. A lot of our transfer problems hasn't been down to buying bad players per se but buying players who don't fit. I'm not saying they are entirely blameless but I'm saying that unless your privy to the inner workings at Derby you can't really say how much they've been at fault.

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toddy

toddy

Posted
Posted
6 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

Ehh the problem is it's kinda hard to know how much they are to blame for our recent transfer inadequacies and how much it's down to the manager in charge at the time. After all the manager sets the criteria for what kinda player to look for and has final say on all ingoings and outgoings. A lot of our transfer problems hasn't been down to buying bad players per se but buying players who don't fit. I'm not saying they are entirely blameless but I'm saying that unless your privy to the inner workings at Derby you can't really say how much they've been at fault.

Yeah, that's like saying ''you know that plug you sold me for the sink - it was great, except it was square shaped''.:D

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brady1993

brady1993

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said:

Nice stats, they do clearly show he is more productive on the RW but that in itself is a problem as there is no chance of him taking Ince's place. I have no problem with Russell as a squad player but at the same time if we can make money on a squad player then i'm all for it.

I do think Nugent will eventually become first choice forward so it will be interesting how he effects the centre mid's and wingers as Martin helped their game but I dont think Bent does.

I'm with you other than this bit. For me if we buy somebody new to replace Russell's place in the starting eleven, Russell would be vital in providing cover and competition for the new player + Ince. You can't just rely on a good starting eleven and you need a good squad to cover for injuries and loss of form. Personally I'm far from convinced about the wide players we have who are behind Russell and would rather offload them even if it's for a cut price because Russell is a more useful asset to have in the squad. The only situation I'd let Russell go would be one where we'd already bought a better player and Russell was pushing for a move.

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brady1993

brady1993

Posted
Posted
10 minutes ago, toddy said:

Yeah, that's like saying ''you know that plug you sold me for the sink - it was great, except it was square shaped''.:D

I think it's more like ordering a square plug and then being surprised when the perfectly good square plug doesn't fit the round sinkhole. :D

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cheron85

cheron85

Posted
Posted
55 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said:

but others are hoping Russell can find the same form as he did under Mc before which he has shown no sign of this time under Mc?

Yeh, but they are hoping something that has happened before happens again... You're hoping that something which hasn't happened before happens... 

We can all hope for snow... It's naive to hope for a rain of chocolate sprinkles...

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MACKWORTHRAM

MACKWORTHRAM

Posted
Posted

Whenever a club signs a player everyone is hoping that they are going to come good. Even the best players around could move to another club, with seemingly not much risk attached, and could end up being hopeless. Torres from Liverpool to Chelsea is a good example. Then you have players that you sign who are young, inexperienced and more of a gamble that could end up being superstars. Dele Ali from MK Dons to Spurs for example. 

My point is bar the top clubs. Every player has a price and of that player is sold, will look to replace that player with a better player. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. 

Every signing comes with hope. No matter how good they are or if we have heard of them before. 

You cant say we shouldn't sell Russell and hope we can get someone better in. Because if we do sell Russell or anyone the hope is we will always replace them with someone better. No signing is a guarantee. 

"We cant sell any players because we might not replace them with better" if we have that attitude then we will never sell or sign anyone. 

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Sparkle

Sparkle

Posted
Posted
1 hour ago, brady1993 said:

Oook so here's the big question is Russell really out of form ? If you just look at his goals and assist return this season you could argue he is but that doesn't take into account a couple factors, namely that Russell plays his best football on the RW and that our side is unbalanced and needs work to be as good as previous seasons.

LW:

  • Apps 48
  • Mins 3772
  • Average Rating 7.04
  • Goals 6
  • Assists 8

RW:

  • Apps 45 
  • Mins 3687
  • Average Rating 7.24
  • Goals 15
  • Assists 6

The above is stats gathered from whoscored.com over the seasons 13/14, 14/15, 15/16, 16/17 for Russell. When selecting position for stats it appears whoscored counts sub appearances as it's own separate position, so I presume the above is just games where Russell started. It is my opinion from watching Russell is that he is better on the right where he can cut inside and I believe the above stats lend evidence to that view. He certainly has been more productive on the right. 

Regarding the team balance: Russell hasn't been as productive as usual this season but I think it's very important to note that the rest of the team hasn't been as productive either bar Ince (Who is by the far the exception rather than the rule). The two best examples are Bent and Butterfield; Butterfield grabbed 7 goals in 38 apps (9 sub apps) last year but is yet to grab a goal this year and Darren Bent is one of the most prolific goalscorers in the english game yet only has 3 goals in 22 (10 sub apps) apps this year. Have they both become unproductive players along with Russell or do the problems in the side run a tad deeper. McClaren has returned and we have been better but we are not the same side we were before underneath him in both quality and tactical cohesion.

Personally I'd rather back Russell to come good as a squad player when McClaren fixes the issues with rather than the others because he has a better track record and in particularly his better track record comes playing in the system McClaren is working towards rebuilding.

Very good point well made, so then let's move Ince over to the left so that it stops his goal scoring then someone will offer a bit of money and we can sell him for a profit to hopefully replace him with someone better? ( Russell and Ince are our best two let's not ged rid for the sake of some money we apparently don't really need?)

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brady1993

brady1993

Posted
Posted
23 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

Whenever a club signs a player everyone is hoping that they are going to come good. Even the best players around could move to another club, with seemingly not much risk attached, and could end up being hopeless. Torres from Liverpool to Chelsea is a good example. Then you have players that you sign who are young, inexperienced and more of a gamble that could end up being superstars. Dele Ali from MK Dons to Spurs for example. 

My point is bar the top clubs. Every player has a price and of that player is sold, will look to replace that player with a better player. Sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. 

Every signing comes with hope. No matter how good they are or if we have heard of them before. 

You cant say we shouldn't sell Russell and hope we can get someone better in. Because if we do sell Russell or anyone the hope is we will always replace them with someone better. No signing is a guarantee. 

"We cant sell any players because we might not replace them with better" if we have that attitude then we will never sell or sign anyone. 

I think that unless the money for a first choice player (which Russell is currently) is too good to turn down, and personally I don't think the figures quoted are near what I'd consider 'too good' money for Russell, then your aim should be to buy better and use the displaced first team player as competition/cover. You then try to move on the player who was previously cover. Don't get me wrong if somebody came in with a silly offer for Russell I'd take it and then chance getting better in the market but the prices quoted are peanuts in today's market and I doubt the amount we'd raise for Russell would affect our chances of buying somebody better.

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Sparkle

Sparkle

Posted
Posted
31 minutes ago, brady1993 said:

I think that unless the money for a first choice player (which Russell is currently) is too good to turn down, and personally I don't think the figures quoted are near what I'd consider 'too good' money for Russell, then your aim should be to buy better and use the displaced first team player as competition/cover. You then try to move on the player who was previously cover. Don't get me wrong if somebody came in with a silly offer for Russell I'd take it and then chance getting better in the market but the prices quoted are peanuts in today's market and I doubt the amount we'd raise for Russell would affect our chances of buying somebody better.

Absolutely agree 

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Coneheadjohn

Coneheadjohn

Posted
Posted
2 hours ago, brady1993 said:

I think that unless the money for a first choice player (which Russell is currently) is too good to turn down, and personally I don't think the figures quoted are near what I'd consider 'too good' money for Russell, then your aim should be to buy better and use the displaced first team player as competition/cover. You then try to move on the player who was previously cover. Don't get me wrong if somebody came in with a silly offer for Russell I'd take it and then chance getting better in the market but the prices quoted are peanuts in today's market and I doubt the amount we'd raise for Russell would affect our chances of buying somebody better.

Thankyou,

This is exactly correct, saved me trying to organise my words.

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DCFC83

DCFC83

Posted
Posted

How many players who put on the shirt would you really say are Derby players.. Passionate about the club.. Russell is at the top imo.. Yes, he doesn't score alot but is one of the best out the bunch that we brought south of the border! Think the man deserves a  new contract and i would be sad to see him go.. Yes, Ince has found some form but for a very long time he looked like he didn't give a toss. Anya hasn't done alot, Blackman is not a winger, Andi has gone.. Who else do we have?   

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