cheron85 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 5 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said: Minutes Goals (MPG) Assists (MPA) Ince 7292 32 (227.87) 12 (607.66) Russell 10181 29 (351.06) 27 (377.07) Anya 906 1 (906) 1 (906) Weimann 1808 4 (452) 0 (1808) Camara 579 0 (579) 3 (193) Blackman 1087 1 (1087) 0 (1087) All stats taken from Transfermarkt so not sure how accurate they are but thought it would be worth putting the stats up. Quite shocked at the amount of assists Ince has, thought he would have had more. I think there's a fairly good argument there that Russell is a decent contributor... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 14 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said: That was 3 years ago? He has had plenty of chances in that same system this season under Mc and not provided the same quality as before. He has consistently been useful for us in our system for the past three seasons, a big reason why he hasn't been as effective this season is due to dysfunction elsewhere in the team (i.e. lack of a striker with a semblance of linkup play). 16 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said: I used Ince's stats as he is the only player Russell can be fairly judged against in our team as he plays the same position as Johnny and had a consistent run - plenty on here comparing Russell to Camara, Weimann, Anya + Blackman yet none of them have had the same chance under Mc than what Johnny has so they cannot be fairly judged against Russell. I see your point but the question is why should any of those players have a decent run in the team ? None have looked an improvement on Russell when they've started or come of the bench (other than Camara's game against WBA) and none of them have Russell's track record at this level. Don't you find it slightly odd that under McClaren's previous tenure he'd always substitute his wingers after an hour and would frequently rotate them between games and yet now we have a firm first choice in Ince and Russell? Suggesting that he doesn't rate any of the other wide players very highly and afterall he's the guy that gets to see these players play everyday. The grass isn't always greener...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 7 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said: That was 3 years ago? He has had plenty of chances in that same system this season under Mc and not provided the same quality as before. I used Ince's stats as he is the only player Russell can be fairly judged against in our team as he plays the same position as Johnny and had a consistent run - plenty on here comparing Russell to Camara, Weimann, Anya + Blackman yet none of them have had the same chance under Mc than what Johnny has so they cannot be fairly judged against Russell. Y'what?! Also, you're looking at appearances again rather than minutes. Ince has played 78 lots of 90 to Russell's 111. You can count on one hand the number of wingers in this division that are as productive and as consistent as Ince. Ritchie (no chance), Sakho (wages may be a problem) and maybe Judge although he plays centrally as much as he does wide. Surprisingly, even Knockaert is probably only as productive as Russell in terms of goals and assists although his general play is arguably superior to Inces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 13 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said: Minutes Goals (MPG) Assists (MPA) Ince 7292 32 (227.87) 12 (607.66) Russell 10181 29 (351.06) 27 (377.07) Anya 906 1 (906) 1 (906) Weimann 1808 4 (452) 0 (1808) Camara 579 0 (579) 3 (193) Blackman 1087 1 (1087) 0 (1087) All stats taken from Transfermarkt so not sure how accurate they are but thought it would be worth putting the stats up. Quite shocked at the amount of assists Ince has, thought he would have had more. For some reason Transfermarkt has counted last seasons play-offs twice for us, not sure how they've managed to cock it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 14 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said: Minutes Goals (MPG) Assists (MPA) Ince 7292 32 (227.87) 12 (607.66) Russell 10181 29 (351.06) 27 (377.07) Anya 906 1 (906) 1 (906) Weimann 1808 4 (452) 0 (1808) Camara 579 0 (579) 3 (193) Blackman 1087 1 (1087) 0 (1087) All stats taken from Transfermarkt so not sure how accurate they are but thought it would be worth putting the stats up. Quite shocked at the amount of assists Ince has, thought he would have had more. Most of Ince' assists come from set piece crosses from what I have seen, when he has it at his feet he does tend to shoot and not pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC1388 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 minute ago, brady1993 said: He has consistently been useful for us in our system for the past three seasons, a big reason why he hasn't been as effective this season is due to dysfunction elsewhere in the team (i.e. lack of a striker with a semblance of linkup play). I see your point but the question is why should any of those players have a decent run in the team ? None have looked an improvement on Russell when they've started or come of the bench (other than Camara's game against WBA) and none of them have Russell's track record at this level. Don't you find it slightly odd that under McClaren's previous tenure he'd always substitute his wingers after an hour and would frequently rotate them between games and yet now we have a firm first choice in Ince and Russell? Suggesting that he doesn't rate any of the other wide players very highly and afterall he's the guy that gets to see these players play everyday. The grass isn't always greener...... I think Anya + Weimann have shown in fits and starts what they are capable of which is why i'd personally like to see them given a decent runs of games but like you said Mc gets to see them day in day out. As to your point about the changes Mc used to make and what he makes now - I think some of that is down to the fact in nearly every game he has had to change his forward as purely due to game management Bent doesn't play a full 90 whereas Martin did - this could change if Nugent gets a starting role and plays full 90's, but I still think Mc has changed at least 1 winger in nearly all the games? I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 2 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said: I think Anya + Weimann have shown in fits and starts what they are capable of which is why i'd personally like to see them given a decent runs of games but like you said Mc gets to see them day in day out. That's fair enough. Personally I think Anya flatters to deceive, his crossing is often woeful, he carries no goal threat and his general play isn't good enough to make up for it. (I'm not just judging Anya on his time for us either). All I've seen in the past two seasons with Wiemann is a technically worse version of Russell. Either or both might come good but I really don't see it happening. 7 minutes ago, DCFC1388 said: As to your point about the changes Mc used to make and what he makes now - I think some of that is down to the fact in nearly every game he has had to change his forward as purely due to game management Bent doesn't play a full 90 whereas Martin did - this could change if Nugent gets a starting role and plays full 90's, but I still think Mc has changed at least 1 winger in nearly all the games? I could be wrong. Whilst your correct the difference is that before a winger would be off after 60 mins every game and he'd rotate wingers willingly between games, whereas now he only seems to take off Russell when he has ran himself into the floor or rest him for games only when he absolutely has to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AmberRamber Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Reports are suggesting that Russell is the subject of a 2m bid from Birmingham and that Derby have said come back with 3.5m or that they value him at 3.5m. If this is the case and fees are being spoken about without rebuttal from either club then there really could be some substance in this deal actually going ahead. Recall when speculation linked Russell to Cardiff he was quoted as saying he loved it here and was going nowhere. Unless I've missed anything like that, the the lack of any of these types of quotes add fuel to the fire. Its ok selling first team members for the right price and so on, but for a side actively looking to get out of this league I'm hoping this deal is being done in conjunction with a replacement coming in to pride park straight away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
admira Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 DET Derby County want £3.5m for Scottish international Johnny Russell, according to The Sun. Championship rivals Birmingham City are interested in the 26-year-old forward and they are reported to be in talks with Derby. It is also being reported that Birmingham have offered £2m for Russell, who has been linked with Brighton & Hove Albion, Bristol City and Cardiff in the past. Russell has made 160 appearances for the Rams, including 100 league starts, since he joined the club from Dundee United for £750,000 in the summer of 2013. He has scored 28 goals. Having been in and out of the side under Nigel Pearson, he won his place back following the return of Steve McClaren as manager although he has not started in the last two games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC1388 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Minutes Goals (MPG) Assists (MPA) Ince 2177 9 (241.88) 5 (435.4) Russell 1360 1 (1360) 1 (1360) Anya 670 1 (670) 1 (670) Weimann 291 0 (291) 0 (291) Camara 378 0 (378) 2 (189) Blackman 447 1 (447) 1 (447) These stats are this season only and Anya as a winger only. This season Anya has matched Johnny in half the game time and Blackman has in a third of the game time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ellafella Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 2 hours ago, cheron85 said: ASSUMING we could get someone... Why do people seem to have this thing about selling people before we get a replacement! There is ZERO guarantee that we could get someone better in... There may not be any available, they may not want to play for us AND we're in a league/market at the moment where there are several teams who are throwing more money at players than us... Totally agree. I just wonder sometimes at all the other posters who think there are heaps of other players out there with better quality. Why do other clubs (Cardiff, Brighton, Birmingham) keep wanting to buy JR? <shakes head in disbelief> What about Magna Carta? Did she die in vain? <necks another Bourbon> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 hour ago, DCFC1388 said: Minutes Goals (MPG) Assists (MPA) Ince 2177 9 (241.88) 5 (435.4) Russell 1360 1 (1360) 1 (1360) Anya 670 1 (670) 1 (670) Weimann 291 0 (291) 0 (291) Camara 378 0 (378) 2 (189) Blackman 447 1 (447) 1 (447) These stats are this season only and Anya as a winger only. This season Anya has matched Johnny in half the game time and Blackman has in a third of the game time. I don't see your point. Nobody is arguing that he hasn't been poor offensively this season. People are arguing that it's silly to write somebody off who was one of the most productive wingers in the league based on half a season of poor form; half a season which has seen the team broken by a gorilla and thus has resulted in moments of magic and and impenetrable defence and a ginger island headed saint to get us out of a mess. If Russell is still poor once McClaren's fixed the team then you write him off and say it's time to get rid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopRam Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 hour ago, DCFC1388 said: Minutes Goals (MPG) Assists (MPA) Ince 2177 9 (241.88) 5 (435.4) Russell 1360 1 (1360) 1 (1360) Anya 670 1 (670) 1 (670) Weimann 291 0 (291) 0 (291) Camara 378 0 (378) 2 (189) Blackman 447 1 (447) 1 (447) These stats are this season only and Anya as a winger only. This season Anya has matched Johnny in half the game time and Blackman has in a third of the game time. This will shut them up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TopRam Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 10 minutes ago, cannable said: I don't see your point. Nobody is arguing that he hasn't been poor offensively this season. People are arguing that it's silly to write somebody off who was one of the most productive wingers in the league based on half a season of poor form; half a season which has seen the team broken by a gorilla and thus has resulted in moments of magic and and impenetrable defence and a ginger island headed saint to get us out of a mess. If Russell is still poor once McClaren's fixed the team then you write him off and say it's time to get rid. But it's ok to judge Weimann Blackman off a few games? Most have been coming of the bench aswell... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC1388 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 7 minutes ago, cannable said: I don't see your point. If Russell is still poor once McClaren's fixed the team then you write him off and say it's time to get rid. I wasnt making a specific point, just putting up this seasons stats so people can see like for like in the same position. What do you mean by once McClaren fixes the team? Id argue to say that since Pearson left McClaren has fixed the team as much as he possibly can without signings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 minute ago, DCFC1388 said: I wasnt making a specific point, just putting up this seasons stats so people can see like for like in the same position. What do you mean by once McClaren fixes the team? Id argue to say that since Pearson left McClaren has fixed the team as much as he possibly can without signings Mac 2 has more or less been Clement football perfected. He's spoken about building things, changing things slowly, implementing new ideas and eventually turning us back into the side we once were. The biggest indication of this is that we've signed a natural holding midfield controller despite BJ being our POTS. If Russell is still poor when we're bossing games and playing our football again then it will be time to him move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 4 minutes ago, TopRam said: But it's ok to judge Weimann Blackman off a few games? Most have been coming of the bench aswell... For a start we've seen Weimann for more than a few games or are we excluding last season from the argument ? You may have a point about Blackman but if you look at his past you see a player who had a 3 month purple patch in a career of mediocrity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brady1993 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 9 minutes ago, TopRam said: This will shut them up Yes this small sample size that doesn't take into account several other factors is the definitive argument that Russell shouldn't be first choice and should be sold ASAP......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 hour ago, DCFC1388 said: These stats are this season only and Anya as a winger only. This season Anya has matched Johnny in half the game time and Blackman has in a third of the game time. 17 minutes ago, cannable said: I don't see your point. The point was... His original stats showed that Russell was actually by far and away our second best winger and we should keep him... So he changed the stats to try and support his original stance that Russell is rubbish. Not sure why we're having a go at Russell for not scoring or assisting when we have the second lowest goal tally in the championship... Lower than Rotherham... Let's get their wingers! 51 minutes ago, Ellafella said: Totally agree. I just wonder sometimes at all the other posters who think there are heaps of other players out there with better quality. Why do other clubs (Cardiff, Brighton, Birmingham) keep wanting to buy JR? <shakes head in disbelief> What about Magna Carta? Did she die in vain? <necks another Bourbon> Solved it... Rotherham have scored more than us... Let's get them... No wait I think Shackell scored at some point... He's as good a winger as Russell then... Back to Johnson on the wing a la Pearson anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC1388 Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 Just now, cheron85 said: The point was... His original stats showed that Russell was actually by far and away our second best winger and we should keep him... So he changed the stats to try and support his original stance that Russell is rubbish This is not the case at all, I put stats up for all the current wingers whilst they have been at Derby then put up this current seasons stats as well which is surely the fairest way to assess our players whilst judging and comparing them. This seasons stats are more relevant to us than any previous season. A few seasons back I was a huge fan of Russell and if he maintained a similar level of performance as back then id 100% say no to selling him but for me he hasnt shown he can reach that same level, similar to Bryson, I just cant see neither of them reaching that level again. In no way am I saying that any other winger on the books are guarenteed to do better than Russell either I just think they all deserve as much a chance to prove themselves under McClaren as Russell has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.