Oh Brad.....

[Rampage]

7 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

The problem is that teams have realised that you can just stand someone near Thorne and the passing dries up, and since we don't get forward in numbers, you can just double up on the isolated forwards and crowd them out.  It might not be as simple as just doing what we were doing and we start winning again.

Stop the goals going in first. The whole team defends. Build from there.433. It will take time. 0 - 0 at Burnley is the first target, even if they outplay us for 90 mins.

[Bob Loblaw]

10 minutes ago, Rampage said:

Stop the goals going in first. The whole team defends. Build from there.433. It will take time. 0 - 0 at Burnley is the first target, even if they outplay us for 90 mins.

A win and a good performance against Burnley is the first target. Why on earth would we target a 0-0?

[Alph]

I love what Johnson brings to the team so long as he's surrounded by fast, decisive aggressive passing. 

Problem is, behind him is Shackell. Amazing defender but kicks the ball so gently that sometimes Keogh checks his watch before his first touch. When Shackell does use the space and player ahead of him he's not bad. Why doesn't he do it more? Why can't he give Keogh a pacy ball?

Also back there is Warnock. Warnock never has a wide option (well, apart from Saturday for 20mins) as our left wingers vanish. So the ball gets stuck unless Thorne digs them out. 

Then he's got Thorne who as a DM has a duty to be the shield for the CB's and take the ball off them. So he's rarely ahead of Johnson

So you end up with Bradley Johnson being the playmaker in that area of the field. That's worrying. He's a crash bang wallop player. Not a quick thinking playmaker. 

So the ball gets stuck in that corner every time unless someone goes over to get it out. Or its hoofed.

Compare it to the other corner. 

Keogh, Christie, Butterfield/Hendrick and Ince. Much more freedom, faster ball movement and positive passing.

Shackell, Warnock, Johnson, Russell vs Keogh, Cyrus, Butterfield and Ince. It's a no contest in possession.

Used to be Keogh, Wisdom, Hughes, Russell/Ward vs Buxton, Forsyth, Bryson, Dawkins/Ward. Much better balanced, no?

Not seen the stats but I bet we give away and create more down the right and create less but defend better on the left . If you can track forward passes I bet the right side annihilate the left side. 

I realise this is a fault finding post. It's Sunday night, I'm bored and I proper hate Birmingham City. Never been to a Birmingham game and NOT seen trouble. Horrid feckers

[May Contain Nuts]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

Wasn't like the Hull game. 

vs Hull, Derby were the better side and went 2-0 up. Then sat on it and played on the counter

vs Brum, Brum went 1-0 up. Then looked more likely to score again. Then went 3-0 up and looked more likely to score again.  They didn't play on the counter, they blitzed us.

Slag the team off? 

Weren't you criticising when we were winning most weeks?

I'm criticising because some of the stuff going wrong is really worrying. Every attack has turned into and individual effort. Dribble until you're blocked, pass repeat. There's no partnerships beyond the defenders.

No telepathic understanding. 

Hughes, Hendrick, Bryson, Dawkins, Ward, Forsyth, Eustace, Wisdom, Russell

Right there, you can pair them off with each other.  

Whether it was Forsyth overlapping as Dawkins or Ward came inside to exchange with Martin. Hughes going wide to link up with Russell, Hughes, Hendrick/Bryson and Eustace/Thorne having the balanced staggered 3 midfielders. Bryson getting beyond Martin pulling the CB's back so Martin could turn. Bryson and Hendrick both offering a distraction to free Martin.

Defensively... not so great. But it was a good entertaining team. The players we have now are better. But there are no partnerships.

No good trying to say everything is ok now when criticising when we were actually playing ok. 

We've not become a bad team over a week. But we have relied a lot on individual brilliance. Instead of partnerships developing as the season goes on, they appear to be deteriorating. Hence people questioning Johnson here, Martin there, Ince, Russell, Warnock and so on. 

The movement yesterday was miles apart between the two teams. And v Reading. And Boro. Miles. Whatever the score. 

I never really moaned at the end of last season. I don't care about promotion  as much as most so the league table doesn't really hurt me that much. I can't tolerate selfish, arrogant and lazy football though. Rather watch Ipswich than that. 

And the last 2 games have been so fooking stupid

I mean the first Brum goal.. I think it started with someone hitting a high ball to Russell. He's 3ft tall. Is this for fooking real?

Stupid football. Selfish football and casual football. 

Nailed it, as per.

The irony of it is that the impatient "run with it" / "get it forward" brigade have got exactly what they wanted, and now they've got it they've come to the conclusion that it's ****. All that booing and hurling of insults, yet the majority of them are too dense to realise that they're essentially castigating the 10 months-ago version of their own ideal. Idiots.

Shame you didn't make it to the pointy room yesterday.

 

 

[Rev]

22 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I love what Johnson brings to the team so long as he's surrounded by fast, decisive aggressive passing. 

Problem is, behind him is Shackell. Amazing defender but kicks the ball so gently that sometimes Keogh checks his watch before his first touch. When Shackell does use the space and player ahead of him he's not bad. Why doesn't he do it more? Why can't he give Keogh a pacy ball?

Also back there is Warnock. Warnock never has a wide option (well, apart from Saturday for 20mins) as our left wingers vanish. So the ball gets stuck unless Thorne digs them out. 

Then he's got Thorne who as a DM has a duty to be the shield for the CB's and take the ball off them. So he's rarely ahead of Johnson

So you end up with Bradley Johnson being the playmaker in that area of the field. That's worrying. He's a crash bang wallop player. Not a quick thinking playmaker. 

So the ball gets stuck in that corner every time unless someone goes over to get it out. Or its hoofed.

Compare it to the other corner. 

Keogh, Christie, Butterfield/Hendrick and Ince. Much more freedom, faster ball movement and positive passing.

Shackell, Warnock, Johnson, Russell vs Keogh, Cyrus, Butterfield and Ince. It's a no contest in possession.

Used to be Keogh, Wisdom, Hughes, Russell/Ward vs Buxton, Forsyth, Bryson, Dawkins/Ward. Much better balanced, no?

Not seen the stats but I bet we give away and create more down the right and create less but defend better on the left . If you can track forward passes I bet the right side annihilate the left side. 

I realise this is a fault finding post. It's Sunday night, I'm bored and I proper hate Birmingham City. Never been to a Birmingham game and NOT seen trouble. Horrid feckers

Sack the 9 match day analyst's Mel, the one you need is right here!

[Rampage]

1 hour ago, Bob Loblaw said:

A win and a good performance against Burnley is the first target. Why on earth would we target a 0-0?

Because the way that we are playing, we are going to concede at least two goals, IMO, BOB

Keeping Burnley behind us is a good thing. Letting them past us is a bad thing. A miraculous improvement will see us win the game 3 - 0. Also pigs are very good fliers.

We will see.

[Rampage]

Alpha is an excellent game analyser. I do not always have the same opinion as him, until I have to change it when I read his posts! He knows better than me but my jokes are better than his. You know it makes sense!

[jagerbob]

Bradley Johnson is the new Warnock.

Great at other clubs, yet our supporters think he is **** cos he got off to a bad start.

I admit he hasnt played well, but before he came here i was excited and now he is here id still pick him every week because i know he will come good.

[Curtains]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

I love what Johnson brings to the team so long as he's surrounded by fast, decisive aggressive passing. 

Problem is, behind him is Shackell. Amazing defender but kicks the ball so gently that sometimes Keogh checks his watch before his first touch. When Shackell does use the space and player ahead of him he's not bad. Why doesn't he do it more? Why can't he give Keogh a pacy ball?

Also back there is Warnock. Warnock never has a wide option (well, apart from Saturday for 20mins) as our left wingers vanish. So the ball gets stuck unless Thorne digs them out. 

Then he's got Thorne who as a DM has a duty to be the shield for the CB's and take the ball off them. So he's rarely ahead of Johnson

So you end up with Bradley Johnson being the playmaker in that area of the field. That's worrying. He's a crash bang wallop player. Not a quick thinking playmaker. 

So the ball gets stuck in that corner every time unless someone goes over to get it out. Or its hoofed.

Compare it to the other corner. 

Keogh, Christie, Butterfield/Hendrick and Ince. Much more freedom, faster ball movement and positive passing.

Shackell, Warnock, Johnson, Russell vs Keogh, Cyrus, Butterfield and Ince. It's a no contest in possession.

Used to be Keogh, Wisdom, Hughes, Russell/Ward vs Buxton, Forsyth, Bryson, Dawkins/Ward. Much better balanced, no?

Not seen the stats but I bet we give away and create more down the right and create less but defend better on the left . If you can track forward passes I bet the right side annihilate the left side. 

I realise this is a fault finding post. It's Sunday night, I'm bored and I proper hate Birmingham City. Never been to a Birmingham game and NOT seen trouble. Horrid feckers

So Alpha can I ask you this are we a team that always wants to play down the flanks by running at the opposition with Christie on the right and Russell on the left or do we want to play the quick interchanging passing game ie left to right and right to left and when we get in the oppositions final third make telling decisive passes or desisive crossing balls from the flanks. 

You see I think we sometimes fall as a team  into the trap of just running at teams through Christie with limited end product on the right and Russell doing the same on the left 

We need to get back in training to quick one two football and the decisive incisive passing game.

Im sure the players try to do the interchange stuff with patient play but if certain players on the flanks are head down and run straight at the opposition and don't look up to play good balls then the attacks and offensive play just breaks down. 

Not criticizing just observing what we could possibly do better. 

[tomsdubs]

59 minutes ago, jagerbob said:

Bradley Johnson is the new Warnock.

Great at other clubs, yet our supporters think he is **** cos he got off to a bad start.

I admit he hasnt played well, but before he came here i was excited and now he is here id still pick him every week because i know he will come good.

He got off to a good start. Eh?

[Van der MoodHoover]

4 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

What is his natural position though?  And even then it's not so much about positions as style of play.  Johnson is nowhere near good enough on the ball to play in a team that's trying to play possession football, so we either need to abandon possession football and be more direct and physical (which will entail buying a load more players) or we drop Johnson.  You can make the same argument about Shackell, Bent and Weimann as well (and probably others).  

There's seemingly no thought gone into our transfers this season at all - no plan as to how they would all play together, and I'm not even sure whoever was buying them even had an idea what our style of play was going to be this season.  And quite frankly having watched it for half a season, I've still got no idea what our style of play is supposed to be.

This is the exact opposite of what we have been told by Mel,  PC etc

The impression being given is that transfers are only ever the agreed answer to analysed and identified needs. 

Now we're wondering if PC is being given raw materials to work with that are like the product of one of Mrs hants' shopping sprees.....

[Alph]

3 hours ago, curtains said:

So Alpha can I ask you this are we a team that always wants to play down the flanks by running at the opposition with Christie on the right and Russell on the left or do we want to play the quick interchanging passing game ie left to right and right to left and when we get in the oppositions final third make telling decisive passes or desisive crossing balls from the flanks. 

You see I think we sometimes fall as a team  into the trap of just running at teams through Christie with limited end product on the right and Russell doing the same on the left 

We need to get back in training to quick one two football and the decisive incisive passing game.

Im sure the players try to do the interchange stuff with patient play but if certain players on the flanks are head down and run straight at the opposition and don't look up to play good balls then the attacks and offensive play just breaks down. 

Not criticizing just observing what we could possibly do better. 

No, we certainly don't need any more players trying to do stuff on their own. Far too much of it. 

But even if you primarily want to play down the middle you are going to be pushed wide a lot. In the first and second third of the pitch nobody really breaks rank. You need to use the outside ball and the width to create space and eat up territory. But we are quite one sided

Split the team up

Keogh, Cyrus, Butterfield, Ince (Thorne and Martin)

Shackell, Warnock, Johnson, Russell (Thorne and Martin) 

All the aggressive passers, best passers and as a result most advanced positions are by the right half of the team. 

The only way the left side gets forwards is when the right side makes ground and then the ball is switched on the final third. 

Everyone on the left has limited passing ability. Because Russell never offers Warnock an outside ball (he did for a while on Saturday and we looked better for it. Weimann NEVER offers that ball.) All the passing is deeper and slower. 

It either ends in going to the right half or Russell dribbling from 40 yards, Johnson/Warnock hitting a percentage ball to a striker that isn't interested or some such negative outcome. 

Everything we do is reliant on our right half. Obviously Thorne is a huge part of the team because he can pick out anyone and he can support either half. 

It's always dependant on progress down the right or Russell carrying the ball past 2 or 3 players. 

Compare this to a previous team (not saying they were better but they were better at attacking football). But a left half including Buxton, Forsyth, Bryson/Hendrick, Ward/Dawkins/Russell

The passing was sharper, movement more aggressive, passing range longer. Meaning the left side could keep up. Meaning the team had balance and advanced naturally together. The ball could just move about more freely. We were dangerous from everywhere. More vulnerable but we were a few million cheaper too. 

Nobody goes past Martin anymore taking CB's off his arse either. 

Just a real lack of balance and partnerships that cover weakness.

Lots of quality dribblers who can beat a man. Like @Coconut said, that's what people asked for. Now you've got a team that basically stands about watching each other have a run. Because we don't have enough footballers in the starting 11 atm

[Curtains]

5 hours ago, Alpha said:

No, we certainly don't need any more players trying to do stuff on their own. Far too much of it. 

But even if you primarily want to play down the middle you are going to be pushed wide a lot. In the first and second third of the pitch nobody really breaks rank. You need to use the outside ball and the width to create space and eat up territory. But we are quite one sided

Split the team up

Keogh, Cyrus, Butterfield, Ince (Thorne and Martin)

Shackell, Warnock, Johnson, Russell (Thorne and Martin) 

All the aggressive passers, best passers and as a result most advanced positions are by the right half of the team. 

The only way the left side gets forwards is when the right side makes ground and then the ball is switched on the final third. 

Everyone on the left has limited passing ability. Because Russell never offers Warnock an outside ball (he did for a while on Saturday and we looked better for it. Weimann NEVER offers that ball.) All the passing is deeper and slower. 

It either ends in going to the right half or Russell dribbling from 40 yards, Johnson/Warnock hitting a percentage ball to a striker that isn't interested or some such negative outcome. 

Everything we do is reliant on our right half. Obviously Thorne is a huge part of the team because he can pick out anyone and he can support either half. 

It's always dependant on progress down the right or Russell carrying the ball past 2 or 3 players. 

Compare this to a previous team (not saying they were better but they were better at attacking football). But a left half including Buxton, Forsyth, Bryson/Hendrick, Ward/Dawkins/Russell

The passing was sharper, movement more aggressive, passing range longer. Meaning the left side could keep up. Meaning the team had balance and advanced naturally together. The ball could just move about more freely. We were dangerous from everywhere. More vulnerable but we were a few million cheaper too. 

Nobody goes past Martin anymore taking CB's off his arse either. 

Just a real lack of balance and partnerships that cover weakness.

Lots of quality dribblers who can beat a man. Like @Coconut said, that's what people asked for. Now you've got a team that basically stands about watching each other have a run. Because we don't have enough footballers in the starting 11 atm

You as Manager and me as assistant lol. 

Another question. 

Whats the answer then does Clement work with what he has or are tweaks still required because reading that we have problems with the balance of the squad. 

Also where do you see Darren Bent in this or a player of his ilk and is Blackman the same type  

Players like him play on the last man similar to Vardy at Leicester but if you don't put the ball in behind down the channels which we don't they basically get caught offside making the runs as the ball is coming too late if not at all.  Because of that they then rely on scraps and crosses from the flanks etc .

Now take Chris Martin he relies on the ball into feet or chest or head so he can bring it down and lay it off or on the other hand flick it on .He also relies on other players linking up with him so once he's layed it off he can either interchange passes and then get forward on the end of stuff to score his goals or lay the final goalscoring pass in to others  

Its true that at home we often watch Christie down the right running and running and coming to a dead end as we see on the left with Russell although sometimes occasionally it does work but not often 

All in all 3rd is a good position for Clement to have got us to with the balance of the squad then  .

In essence we are doing ok but a few player ins and outs is needed still as the squad is unbalanced which will horrify some Derby fans as they say that's ridiculous to think of changing more personnel and the manager should work with what he has  .

A football team should alway evolve until the balance is right  or you stagnate.

Another problem is Thornes fitness levels at the moment .

 

 

 

[Ninos]

Johnson is a very good player in every regards other than his passing. He even makes good diagonal runs behind the defence (but rarely is spotted by his teammates) . If he could pass like Thorne or had twinkle toes like Hughes he'd still be in the Premier League. In the championship the players are flawed in some way. The opinions on this thread are too harsh on him and he'll come good but he needs creativity around him to showcase his strengths ... And hendrick isn't the answer. This is the puzzle that PC needs to figure out. In addition at training we need to be working on how to break down banks of 4 with crafty runs and incisive passing combinations. Something bj could benefit from. 

[duncanjwitham]

10 hours ago, HantsRam said:

This is the exact opposite of what we have been told by Mel,  PC etc

The impression being given is that transfers are only ever the agreed answer to analysed and identified needs. 

Now we're wondering if PC is being given raw materials to work with that are like the product of one of Mrs hants' shopping sprees.....

We were told quite a few things early in the season that don't seem to be holding water.  The whole thing about playing 'the Derby way', and bringing in managers to play this way (and not allowing a manager to screw with this club philosophy), seems to have been ignored the second Clement walked through the door.  All of a sudden it's a complete about turn and we're playing cautious, defensive football and being forced into punting long balls up to the likes of Russell and Martin.  The same with the talk about the academy being vital, yet signing so many first team players that there's almost no chance that a youth player ever makes it though here.

Re the signings being analysed and fitting identified needs, you can actually see that this has kind of been done.  We need a dominant centre half (Shackell), we need a physical presence in midfield (Johnson) and we need a pacy winger to replace Ward (Weimann).  Yet the analysis seems to have been done at such a superficial level, without any thought for the rest of their game beyond that one single need, you wonder what we are paying these analysts for.  

[StockholmRam]

1 hour ago, Ninos said:

Johnson is a very good player in every regards other than his passing. He even makes good diagonal runs behind the defence (but rarely is spotted by his teammates) . If he could pass like Thorne or had twinkle toes like Hughes he'd still be in the Premier League. In the championship the players are flawed in some way. The opinions on this thread are too harsh on him and he'll come good but he needs creativity around him to showcase his strengths ... And hendrick isn't the answer. This is the puzzle that PC needs to figure out. In addition at training we need to be working on how to break down banks of 4 with crafty runs and incisive passing combinations. Something bj could benefit from. 

If you can't pass a ball then you are not " a very good player" .

[Saturn5]

Still don't think Johnson is any better than Hendrick or Bryson and the only Sub needed on Saturday was to take Johnson off for Butterfield

[admira]

I'd like to see Ince play centre midfield like he did against Brizzle. Gotta try something new and it certainly worked that night.

Stick Hughes next to him there when fit and the creativity would go through the roof (although granted, we'd lose some muscle).

[May Contain Nuts]

It's the Savage-esque hoofs without looking and the blasted clearances 40 foot high and actually back towards our own goal that have really swayed opinion towards an unfavourable one, utterly brainless moments

[Van der MoodHoover]

2 hours ago, duncanjwitham said:

We were told quite a few things early in the season that don't seem to be holding water.  The whole thing about playing 'the Derby way', and bringing in managers to play this way (and not allowing a manager to screw with this club philosophy), seems to have been ignored the second Clement walked through the door.  All of a sudden it's a complete about turn and we're playing cautious, defensive football and being forced into punting long balls up to the likes of Russell and Martin.  The same with the talk about the academy being vital, yet signing so many first team players that there's almost no chance that a youth player ever makes it though here.

Re the signings being analysed and fitting identified needs, you can actually see that this has kind of been done.  We need a dominant centre half (Shackell), we need a physical presence in midfield (Johnson) and we need a pacy winger to replace Ward (Weimann).  Yet the analysis seems to have been done at such a superficial level, without any thought for the rest of their game beyond that one single need, you wonder what we are paying these analysts for.  

absolutely right......we have some very detailed and erudite analyses on here in various posts. You'd think that a material change of style might have been signalled by the management team - we're not complete idiots I feel. The other possibility of course is that the players signed are simply not delivering the results the analysis indicated.

Its all a bit mystifying, but we're only half a season into PCs tenure.