Star Wars

[TigerTedd]

3 hours ago, StringerBell said:

I’m a geek and pretty up to date with canon so I can explain what we know so far. 

From beyond the grave The Emperor enacted Operation Cinder, which attempted to destroy the Empire. His reasoning, - that an Empire that allows the death of its leader should not be allowed to continue. That’s what the Battle of Jakku was all about. Lure the Empire and the Rebellion into one place for a final battle, only to enact a cataclysmic event that will wipe them out. All of them. That event was prevented from being carried out however and the Empire were defeated by the New Republic.

A chosen few including a child Hux and his Imperial officer Dad, and a load of other children went to the far reaches of space. They became the First Order. What happened here is not yet clear, perhaps that’s where Snoke got involved.  Perhaps it’s something to do with the Chiss?

Years later in the new Republic there were some systems that wanted more central control (centrists) while others wanted each system to have more autonomous control (populists). Basically an allegory for Brexit, and yes, Leia voted Leave! ? The centrists were heavily linked with the First Order.

The centrists won out.  Leia was in line to take up a new supreme chancellor type role, despite being against the creation of the role, only for a political opponent to make it public she was the daughter of Darth Vader. Hence Leia’s political career was all but over at this point, and she formed the Resistance.

I can’t remember it all, and there’s still a lot of gaps. But that’s pretty much what they’ve told us so far.

That’s great excellent. Thank you. 

Next question, what’s the plan with Leia? God bless Carrie Fisher, but an off screen death doesn’t seem right for Leia’s character. 

[GenBr]

The fight scene with Rey and Kylo together was the best bit of the movie. Worst bit was floating zombie Leia - could have just killed here there and it would have been fine. 

Unless some of the rest of the movie can be explained in episode 9 (and lets be honest Jar Jars "mystery box" is usually very disappointing) then the whole thing seems to have made episode 7 completely pointless. 

4 hours ago, TigerTedd said:

Speaking of, it’s always annoyed me that the rebel’s went through all that hard work to get rid of the Death Star and the emperor, just to then let the first order rise from their ashes. That seems like really poor management. Sort of like the Germans being able to amass a massive army after world war 1, despite all their sanctions. 

Episode 7 is set 30 years after episode 6. It took Germany a lot less time than that to amass a massive army after world war 1 despite all the sanctions. Besides, the rebels only managed to take out the death star - there would still be hundreds of other imperial ships floating around in space and hundreds of planets controlled by them -don't think it is too unbelievable that the first order appeared.

 

[EssendonRam]

It's amazing how we can all watch the same film and walk away with such different impressions of where it's all heading. To be fair, I've never seen  or read anything other than the 8 films and Rogue One so I may be talking in pig ignorance (although I know I've read somewhere that they're essentially keen to strip back the canon-fodder - sorry, couldn't resist - so, if that's come from a reputable authority, perhaps my ignorance may be a blessing).

But my reading of it all is that we're heading back towards the primacy of the decent commoner and their collective good sense.

That's why Rey's parents are ordinary folk. The force is not meant to be the preserve of the elite; it's within everyone or has the potential to touch anyone.

Star Wars made out that democracy was a failing system; that the democratic republic would crumble when challenged by a malevolent elite who ultimately could only be countered by a benevolent elite.

Disney is, I suspect, trying to pull that theme back to the potential exceptionalism among the ordinary if they're brave and noble, etc.

If you see it in those terms, even Dern's preachy Capt Purplehead ultimately has a point. At first, the military saw her as a pompous windbag, then a potential traitor, only to ultimately realise that she, not only had a feasible strategy, but was capable of noble sacrifice.

That's why the kamikaze pilot HAD to be Purplehead, not Ackbar.

I doubt this offers any explanation re Snoke's origins. To be honest, I suspect Snoke was there because they needed an Emperor substitute; that makes it all the more absurd that they did away with him so cheaply though.

[StringerBell]

56 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

That’s great excellent. Thank you. 

Next question, what’s the plan with Leia? God bless Carrie Fisher, but an off screen death doesn’t seem right for Leia’s character. 

No probs. I forgot to say that from when Leia forms the Resistance they’re in a sort of Cold War with the First Order. The New Republic aren’t really taking them seriously, (which is bizarre - I mean they look exactly like the Empire!). Part of that will be that many of the Republic are First order (I’m guessing they’d got the hell out of dodge by the time Starkiller Base wiped the New Republic out).

Regarding Leia, Kathleen Kennedy said the plan was originally to have ep 7 focus on Han, 8 on Luke, and 9 on Leia. Given that The Last Jedi seemed to be a bit of a ‘**** you’ to The Force Awakens I’m not sure how seriously I can take such claims of long term planning.

But they’ve said they won’t do a CGI Leia again, and I’m pretty sure they’ve said they won’t recast. So they’ll probably allude to her being elsewhere or kill her off in the opening crawl. I wouldn’t like that though. There’s no easy answer as to what to do, and recasting the role would be weird. But I think recasting would honour the character, and over the years the weirdness of having someone else play her for one film would fade away. What do others think?

[maxjam]

I thought the Snoke death scene was actually well done. Snoke was obviously a lot more powerful than both Rey and Kylo and any straight up fight would have instantly killed them - the only way he could have died was through both the overconfidence of his reading of the situation and deception. 

There are however rumours/theories that Snoke is not dead (or at least he has ascended to the equivalent of the Jedi force ghost).  The working title for ep9 is 'Black Diamond' - a reference to the ring briefly seen on one of Snoke's fingers.

We definitely need more info on Snoke's background, it would be a shame to learn all about it in a book/comic.

[StringerBell]

59 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I thought the Snoke death scene was actually well done. Snoke was obviously a lot more powerful than both Rey and Kylo and any straight up fight would have instantly killed them - the only way he could have died was through both the overconfidence of his reading of the situation and deception. 

There are however rumours/theories that Snoke is not dead (or at least he has ascended to the equivalent of the Jedi force ghost).  The working title for ep9 is 'Black Diamond' - a reference to the ring briefly seen on one of Snoke's fingers.

We definitely need more info on Snoke's background, it would be a shame to learn all about it in a book/comic.

Yes the ring with a black rock obtained from beneath Vader’s castle. We don’t know that’s what it’s referring to though. It could be a skiing reference.

 

[StringerBell]

 

[Sith Happens]

15 hours ago, StringerBell said:

No probs. I forgot to say that from when Leia forms the Resistance they’re in a sort of Cold War with the First Order. The New Republic aren’t really taking them seriously, (which is bizarre - I mean they look exactly like the Empire!). Part of that will be that many of the Republic are First order (I’m guessing they’d got the hell out of dodge by the time Starkiller Base wiped the New Republic out).

Regarding Leia, Kathleen Kennedy said the plan was originally to have ep 7 focus on Han, 8 on Luke, and 9 on Leia. Given that The Last Jedi seemed to be a bit of a ‘**** you’ to The Force Awakens I’m not sure how seriously I can take such claims of long term planning.

But they’ve said they won’t do a CGI Leia again, and I’m pretty sure they’ve said they won’t recast. So they’ll probably allude to her being elsewhere or kill her off in the opening crawl. I wouldn’t like that though. There’s no easy answer as to what to do, and recasting the role would be weird. But I think recasting would honour the character, and over the years the weirdness of having someone else play her for one film would fade away. What do others think?

I don't think Leia (or fisher) is strong enough to be the main focus of an entire movie anyway. I am assuming Mark Hamill will be in ep 9 in some capacity, maybe more now than originally expected to keep the fanboys happy.

With the Leia 'death' scene I do wonder if some clever reshoots would have covered her onscreen death in the last jedi, i mean really what did she offer to the story when she came back? Not much, in fact leave Mrs Pink Hair like she did was just not Leia like either, should really have been the other way round, Leia is old and has lived her life, Pink Hair is younger with years in front of her, even a young Finn was prepared to sacrifice himself.

When they announced the new films as a star wars fan i couldnt wait and i just wanted to see han, luke and leia, Han was great in TFA, exactly what was needed and at the time I was sad he died but now think it was the best thing.  Then in this film for me Luke and Leia were boring, yeah Luke gets to be a hero at the end but only after moping about on a rock for the rest of the film. I found myself looking forward to the scenes with Poe, Finn, Rey and Kylo much more so I am happy that it now centres on them.

What I would do with Leia is backtrack on the CGI aspect, but have her 'killed' off off screen and have her appear as a force ghost, that way the CGI will be less noticeable because of the effect of a force ghost anyway.

 

 

[StringerBell]

1 hour ago, Paul71 said:

I don't think Leia (or fisher) is strong enough to be the main focus of an entire movie anyway. I am assuming Mark Hamill will be in ep 9 in some capacity, maybe more now than originally expected to keep the fanboys happy.

With the Leia 'death' scene I do wonder if some clever reshoots would have covered her onscreen death in the last jedi, i mean really what did she offer to the story when she came back? Not much, in fact leave Mrs Pink Hair like she did was just not Leia like either, should really have been the other way round, Leia is old and has lived her life, Pink Hair is younger with years in front of her, even a young Finn was prepared to sacrifice himself.

When they announced the new films as a star wars fan i couldnt wait and i just wanted to see han, luke and leia, Han was great in TFA, exactly what was needed and at the time I was sad he died but now think it was the best thing.  Then in this film for me Luke and Leia were boring, yeah Luke gets to be a hero at the end but only after moping about on a rock for the rest of the film. I found myself looking forward to the scenes with Poe, Finn, Rey and Kylo much more so I am happy that it now centres on them.

What I would do with Leia is backtrack on the CGI aspect, but have her 'killed' off off screen and have her appear as a force ghost, that way the CGI will be less noticeable because of the effect of a force ghost anyway.

 

 

 

The Force ghost thing is an interesting idea and I’ve heard others say that but you have to remember that only 4 (Now 5) Jedi have ever become Force ghosts, so would Leia really have the mastery of the Force to pull that off? I’m still not sure it makes sense with Anakin tbh.

I think some of the main actors from the original Star Wars are underrated myself. They’re not Gielgud but just like Arnie, they play their characters with aplomb. The prequels however made great actors look bad.

Itd be a damn shame if we never get a scene between Kylo Ren and his mother imo. But then there have been loads of scenes we haven’t been given.

Leia and Mrs Gender Studies are the same age and went to the Apprentice Legislature on Coruscant together. She was born during the Empire whereas Leia was born when the Empire was created so if anything she’s just slightly younger.

[TigerTedd]

In hindsight though, now we know leia has to be written out somehow, smashing that frigate into smokes ship, kamikaze style, would’ve been a good way to go out in a blaze of glory, especially if it turned out that she was still mortally wounded from her Mary popping escapade. Hindsight’s a wonderful thing. 

Maybe george Lucas will digitally remaster it in 20 years, and have leia stepping on snokes tail. 

[StringerBell]

17 minutes ago, TigerTedd said:

In hindsight though, now we know leia has to be written out somehow, smashing that frigate into smokes ship, kamikaze style, would’ve been a good way to go out in a blaze of glory, especially if it turned out that she was still mortally wounded from her Mary popping escapade. Hindsight’s a wonderful thing. 

Maybe george Lucas will digitally remaster it in 20 years, and have leia stepping on snokes tail. 

Not sure I like that idea either. I’m sure Leia’s allowed others to put themselves in harms way for her sake before.

Its not that she’s not brave, she is. But she’s the leader of the Resistance, the new Mon Mothma, and would’ve mindful that she has the responsibility to not sacrifice herself. 

Whatever they do, Star Wars fans will always pick it apart!

[r4derby]

Initial reactions having see it once (last night)

first half hour was head-scratchingly poor, did not watch like a Star Wars film. Next half hour turned into a Star Wars film. The following hour was unbelievable, just a brilliant hour of movie. Possibly a few minutes too long.

I can see why movie critics loved it. I can see why fans were split. I assume the ones that hated it watched the first half hour, hated it and that plus the build up of expectation before hand put them into a funk for the rest of the movie so they didn’t enjoy the good bits of the movie

[Stive Pesley]

On ‎23‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:22, TigerTedd said:

Maybe we’ll get some explanation in another spin off, and it’s all part of master plan from Disney. Like rogue one filled a bit of a gap between 3 and 4, well probably get a 6.5 that shows the rise of the first order and snoke. 

You're probably right but I hope not. TFA and TLJ have made me realise the thing that I never liked about the second trilogy was that plot-wise it was all just exposition. We know what happens, we know where it ends up. The only intrigue is watching them show in detail how it happens. Same with Rogue One. With the two new trilogy films it's been a great feeling to have absolutely NO idea what will happen

On ‎23‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 10:42, TigerTedd said:

I read a good explanation about Rey’s parentage. It was supposed to mirror and echo Luke’s realisation at the end of the second.

Luke was quite happy with the fact that his parents were relatively unexciting. Finding out his father was Darth Vader was the worst thing he could’ve heard at that time.

Whereas Rey is searching for her place in the story. She’s hoping it’ll turn out that she’s the daughter of someone important, it’s almost predictable that she’ll be a secret princess or something.

it was the worst possible thing for her to hear atvthat time, that her parents were nobodies

Yeah that makes sense. I was a bit non-plussed at the time, but the more I think about it, the more I like it.

It's a massive sci-fi/fantasy cliché that says the only worth a character has (and by extension ANY of us have) is nothing to do with our own actions, but rather it is solely down to inheritance/parentage. It's Tory heroism isn't it?

Having Rey find out that her parents were nobodies, and that her destiny is completely her own  is actually a much better message to the 99.9999% of people in the world who don't have any kind of inherited elite privilege

@StringerBell tell me I'm not the only one who kept expected a "**** YOU PO!" from Laura Dern

 

[StringerBell]

Regardless of Rey’s biological heritage, she still appears to be some kind of elite ‘chosen one’. The Force isn’t just something any Tom, Dick or Harry can tap into like people might have thought back in 1977. It was the prequels and the midichlorians that introduced all this ‘chosen one’ stuff. If Disney are trying to move away from that I don’t think giving Rey nobody parents really offers a solution.

Apart from Anakin Jedi never had children that we know of. Would they have inherited Force powers if they did?

Haha yeah @StivePesley Twin Peaks was still fresh in my mind while watching.

[Sith Happens]

1 hour ago, StringerBell said:

Regardless of Rey’s biological heritage, she still appears to be some kind of elite ‘chosen one’. The Force isn’t just something any Tom, Dick or Harry can tap into like people might have thought back in 1977. It was the prequels and the midichlorians that introduced all this ‘chosen one’ stuff. If Disney are trying to move away from that I don’t think giving Rey nobody parents really offers a solution.

Apart from Anakin Jedi never had children that we know of. Would they have inherited Force powers if they did?

Haha yeah @StivePesley Twin Peaks was still fresh in my mind while watching.

Kylo inherited them.

So yes it suggests they do. 

[StringerBell]

53 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

Kylo inherited them.

So yes it suggests they do. 

So did Luke. But it was never presented as hereditary originally.

I mean we find out Luke’s dad was a Jedi Knight but you never get given the impression that force sensitivity is passed on, but that the ways of the force can be learned.

What we can say for certain is that the Skywalker ‘chosen one’ness is passed on. But does that transcend to bogstandard Jedi’s and force sensitive people like Chirrut and Maz Kanata?

 

[EssendonRam]

On 12/24/2017 at 03:20, StringerBell said:

No probs. I forgot to say that from when Leia forms the Resistance they’re in a sort of Cold War with the First Order. The New Republic aren’t really taking them seriously, (which is bizarre - I mean they look exactly like the Empire!). Part of that will be that many of the Republic are First order (I’m guessing they’d got the hell out of dodge by the time Starkiller Base wiped the New Republic out).

Regarding Leia, Kathleen Kennedy said the plan was originally to have ep 7 focus on Han, 8 on Luke, and 9 on Leia. Given that The Last Jedi seemed to be a bit of a ‘**** you’ to The Force Awakens I’m not sure how seriously I can take such claims of long term planning.

But they’ve said they won’t do a CGI Leia again, and I’m pretty sure they’ve said they won’t recast. So they’ll probably allude to her being elsewhere or kill her off in the opening crawl. I wouldn’t like that though. There’s no easy answer as to what to do, and recasting the role would be weird. But I think recasting would honour the character, and over the years the weirdness of having someone else play her for one film would fade away. What do others think?

They did say both of those things in the immediate aftermath of Carrie Fisher's death but I agree with every word you say there. If they don't recast, the character will either be held captive out of sight, comatose or be killed off before the next film starts. Each would be a shameful waste of the curtain call of an iconic character.

To be honest, I now wonder how seriously they must've contemplated changing this film to have Leia sacrifice herself to save Luke and Rey, or cutting the Leia near-death sequence and saving it for Episode IX. The problem with that is that Leia is obviously pivotal in the final confrontation between Rey and Kylo.

[StringerBell]

1 hour ago, EssendonRam said:

They did say both of those things in the immediate aftermath of Carrie Fisher's death but I agree with every word you say there. If they don't recast, the character will either be held captive out of sight, comatose or be killed off before the next film starts. Each would be a shameful waste of the curtain call of an iconic character.

To be honest, I now wonder how seriously they must've contemplated changing this film to have Leia sacrifice herself to save Luke and Rey, or cutting the Leia near-death sequence and saving it for Episode IX. The problem with that is that Leia is obviously pivotal in the final confrontation between Rey and Kylo.

I think it must have crossed their mind. I was totally caught up on the moment when she got sucked into space and thought she’d gone. It didn’t occur to me she was on Crait in the trailer so she couldn’t have died there ?‍♂️

I agree, it’s an iconic character and an off screen death wouldn’t do the character justice. Even if she’s used as a prop to advance Kylo’s character, that’s still important.

Someone mentioned Leia being a force ghost earlier and that got me thinking.  I actually really, really like the idea that Leia gets to live on in that way. She clearly has the untapped potential. One book recently revealed Yoda and Ben were debating which twin to train. Yoda wanted to train Leia, not Luke.

But anyway, a force ghost Leia would have to make sense - at this point she wouldnt have the training. But after some years of communing with Luke’s force ghost in the same way Yoda and Obiwan did with Qui Gonn’s (as we see at the end of Episode 3) in order to learn how to become one with the force - that would make complete sense. But I’d prefer to see this communing between the twins happening in episode 9 rather than just having Leia turn up as a force ghost which can then be explained later in a book.

[EssendonRam]

On 25/12/2017 at 07:11, StringerBell said:

I think it must have crossed their mind. I was totally caught up on the moment when she got sucked into space and thought she’d gone. It didn’t occur to me she was on Crait in the trailer so she couldn’t have died there ?‍♂️

I agree, it’s an iconic character and an off screen death wouldn’t do the character justice. Even if she’s used as a prop to advance Kylo’s character, that’s still important.

Someone mentioned Leia being a force ghost earlier and that got me thinking.  I actually really, really like the idea that Leia gets to live on in that way. She clearly has the untapped potential. One book recently revealed Yoda and Ben were debating which twin to train. Yoda wanted to train Leia, not Luke.

But anyway, a force ghost Leia would have to make sense - at this point she wouldnt have the training. But after some years of communing with Luke’s force ghost in the same way Yoda and Obiwan did with Qui Gonn’s (as we see at the end of Episode 3) in order to learn how to become one with the force - that would make complete sense. But I’d prefer to see this communing between the twins happening in episode 9 rather than just having Leia turn up as a force ghost which can then be explained later in a book.

I thought the same thing.

In fact, I only had enough time to think, “I knew the bustards would change this film to kill her off now” before realising that she was flying through space.

For a second, I found the scene of Leia being rushed onto the medical trolley a bit jarring...and half thought again that they might bring her death forward. But it was obvious she wasn’t going to be killed off the moment Capt Purplehead opened her mouth.

On the force ghost idea, can they re-age? I’m wondering if Carrie Fisher’s daughter looks sufficiently like Carrie Fisher to recreate the youngish Leia? I just looked at her photo a moment ago - I wouldn’t have recognised her in a bar fight if she was wearing a name tag, to be honest - but I doubt the likeness is strong enough (leaving aside whether she’s a good enough actor).

[StringerBell]

15 hours ago, EssendonRam said:

I thought the same thing.

In fact, I only had enough time to think, “I knew the bustards would change this film to kill her off now” before realising that she was flying through space.

For a second, I found the scene of Leia being rushed onto the medical trolley a bit jarring...and half thought again that they might bring her death forward. But it was obvious she wasn’t going to be killed off the moment Capt Purplehead opened her mouth.

On the force ghost idea, can they re-age? I’m wondering if Carrie Fisher’s daughter looks sufficiently like Carrie Fisher to recreate the youngish Leia? I just looked at her photo a moment ago - I wouldn’t have recognised her in a bar fight if she was wearing a name tag, to be honest - but I doubt the likeness is strong enough (leaving aside whether she’s a good enough actor).

Well they made Anakin younger by putting Hayden Christensen at the end of ROTJ. I didn’t like that but I think they thought he’d return to a state before he was corrupted, which wouldn’t apply to Leia.

Carrie Fisher’s daughter is actually already in the last 2 films. She’s the one evacuating at the beginning of The Last Jedi.