VulcanRam

I'm actually really pleased for Festy, this is a great move at a critical point in his career. He's come in and done everything he can for us, turned down a move in Jan to help our fight for survival and has bagged a moved abroad (or to Watford via abroad, so at least he'll get to stay in the Championship as things stand).
No way could we realistically expect him, or indeed anyone else out of contract, just to sit and wait to see how this chaos (and I'm being polite) pans out as the weeks and months roll by. They've got their careers and lives to think about.
So thanks Festy, you've come in and done a great job in stupid circumstances. Good luck to you and I'm glad to see a Derby product stepping up another level. Don't worry about us, we'll survive. Perhaps.

I'm actually really pleased for Festy, this is a great move at a critical point in his career. He's come in and done everything he can for us, turned down a move in Jan to help our fight for survival and has bagged a moved abroad (or to Watford via abroad, so at least he'll get to stay in the Championship as things stand).
No way could we realistically expect him, or indeed anyone else out of contract, just to sit and wait to see how this chaos (and I'm being polite) pans out as the weeks and months roll by. They've got their careers and lives to think about.
So thanks Festy, you've come in and done a great job in stupid circumstances. Good luck to you and I'm glad to see a Derby product stepping up another level. Don't worry about us, we'll survive. Perhaps.

I'm actually really pleased for Festy, this is a great move at a critical point in his career. He's come in and done everything he can for us, turned down a move in Jan to help our fight for survival and has bagged a moved abroad (or to Watford via abroad, so at least he'll get to stay in the Championship as things stand).
No way could we realistically expect him, or indeed anyone else out of contract, just to sit and wait to see how this chaos (and I'm being polite) pans out as the weeks and months roll by. They've got their careers and lives to think about.
So thanks Festy, you've come in and done a great job in stupid circumstances. Good luck to you and I'm glad to see a Derby product stepping up another level. Don't worry about us, we'll survive. Perhaps.

I'm actually really pleased for Festy, this is a great move at a critical point in his career. He's come in and done everything he can for us, turned down a move in Jan to help our fight for survival and has bagged a moved abroad (or to Watford via abroad, so at least he'll get to stay in the Championship as things stand).
No way could we realistically expect him, or indeed anyone else out of contract, just to sit and wait to see how this chaos (and I'm being polite) pans out as the weeks and months roll by. They've got their careers and lives to think about.
So thanks Festy, you've come in and done a great job in stupid circumstances. Good luck to you and I'm glad to see a Derby product stepping up another level. Don't worry about us, we'll survive. Perhaps.

I'm actually really pleased for Festy, this is a great move at a critical point in his career. He's come in and done everything he can for us, turned down a move in Jan to help our fight for survival and has bagged a moved abroad (or to Watford via abroad, so at least he'll get to stay in the Championship as things stand).
No way could we realistically expect him, or indeed anyone else out of contract, just to sit and wait to see how this chaos (and I'm being polite) pans out as the weeks and months roll by. They've got their careers and lives to think about.
So thanks Festy, you've come in and done a great job in stupid circumstances. Good luck to you and I'm glad to see a Derby product stepping up another level. Don't worry about us, we'll survive. Perhaps.

I'm actually really pleased for Festy, this is a great move at a critical point in his career. He's come in and done everything he can for us, turned down a move in Jan to help our fight for survival and has bagged a moved abroad (or to Watford via abroad, so at least he'll get to stay in the Championship as things stand).
No way could we realistically expect him, or indeed anyone else out of contract, just to sit and wait to see how this chaos (and I'm being polite) pans out as the weeks and months roll by. They've got their careers and lives to think about.
So thanks Festy, you've come in and done a great job in stupid circumstances. Good luck to you and I'm glad to see a Derby product stepping up another level. Don't worry about us, we'll survive. Perhaps.

I'm actually really pleased for Festy, this is a great move at a critical point in his career. He's come in and done everything he can for us, turned down a move in Jan to help our fight for survival and has bagged a moved abroad (or to Watford via abroad, so at least he'll get to stay in the Championship as things stand).
No way could we realistically expect him, or indeed anyone else out of contract, just to sit and wait to see how this chaos (and I'm being polite) pans out as the weeks and months roll by. They've got their careers and lives to think about.
So thanks Festy, you've come in and done a great job in stupid circumstances. Good luck to you and I'm glad to see a Derby product stepping up another level. Don't worry about us, we'll survive. Perhaps.

I'm actually really pleased for Festy, this is a great move at a critical point in his career. He's come in and done everything he can for us, turned down a move in Jan to help our fight for survival and has bagged a moved abroad (or to Watford via abroad, so at least he'll get to stay in the Championship as things stand).
No way could we realistically expect him, or indeed anyone else out of contract, just to sit and wait to see how this chaos (and I'm being polite) pans out as the weeks and months roll by. They've got their careers and lives to think about.
So thanks Festy, you've come in and done a great job in stupid circumstances. Good luck to you and I'm glad to see a Derby product stepping up another level. Don't worry about us, we'll survive. Perhaps.

I'm actually really pleased for Festy, this is a great move at a critical point in his career. He's come in and done everything he can for us, turned down a move in Jan to help our fight for survival and has bagged a moved abroad (or to Watford via abroad, so at least he'll get to stay in the Championship as things stand).
No way could we realistically expect him, or indeed anyone else out of contract, just to sit and wait to see how this chaos (and I'm being polite) pans out as the weeks and months roll by. They've got their careers and lives to think about.
So thanks Festy, you've come in and done a great job in stupid circumstances. Good luck to you and I'm glad to see a Derby product stepping up another level. Don't worry about us, we'll survive. Perhaps.

The problem is that the players and staff, just like the fans, have heard a stream of BS deadlines and may have come to the same conclusion - that you can put any faith in any of them.
Eventually, of course, if they keep saying 'by the end of the week', they have a good chance of being right That's if there are any bidders at all) but when is that 'eventually'?
Anyone who's ever worked for a company that looks like it's going down the pan will know you've got to think about your own future. There's no loyalty from the company - they'd throw you out on your arse if they could - look at P&O for an extreme example -so any loyalty you show them may well end up with you out of a job in a month or two. 

Just reading through this thread for the first time and thought I'd offer a perspective from someone who referees most weekends at a senior county level. I'm not picking on you @Unlucky Alf but your post above and the conversation around it with @AndyinLiverpoolraises a couple of points. 
Firstly, you're both right in a way on this. Most handballs are not handballs because they are not deliberate and do not lead directly to a shooting opportunity. However, a handball that is not deliberate can be pulled up if the referee's personal interpretation is that the player's body was made unnaturally bigger unless it was part of his overall movement at that moment in time (ie if he was swinging round/changing direction it is natural to assume his arms might be out rather than by his side. 
The other part to it is if the hands are deemed to be in a natural position and it was not deliberate, but the player clearly controlled the ball using his hand or arm and thus has gained an advantage by doing so. By the laws of the game this is not handball, by the spirit of the game, which we must also take into consideration, it is or it might be. The Man City example is a good one for this dilemma - it can be argued that the player was shifting direction so his arm was out for balance therefore not in an unnatural position. However, in the spirit of the game he has used his arm to control the ball so it's handball.
But you can see how difficult some of these decisions are for referees (outside the Prem where there is no VAR), who have to make them in a split second and at a 100 miles per hour taking a lot of things into consideration. And that's if they get a clear sight of it. And they've got 10 players in their ear shouting different things.
The last bit @Unlucky Alf is about the QPR player. Look at the still when it happens. The ref has just blown for HT and has his eyes down on his notebook, which is perfectly reasonable. The incident takes place almost behind him. He cannot be expected to have seen it so he cannot send the player off. That's not bad refereeing or poor interpretation. Bad refereeing would have been to have guessed or assumed he'd pushed him and sent him off as a result of that guess. Referees are only human and in the EFL, with VAR, have only one pair of eyes, and can only judge on what they see.
Last one, the Morrison foul was a clear foul and a penalty. But if the ref was following the ball and in that split second didn't get a proper or clear view of it he can't give it. I'm not defending him here, just offering a different perspective.
It's easy to referee by TV with a wide angle where you can see lots of things at the same time. At ground level when you can't and there's lots going on all the time, believe me, it's a hard job. 

Just reading through this thread for the first time and thought I'd offer a perspective from someone who referees most weekends at a senior county level. I'm not picking on you @Unlucky Alf but your post above and the conversation around it with @AndyinLiverpoolraises a couple of points. 
Firstly, you're both right in a way on this. Most handballs are not handballs because they are not deliberate and do not lead directly to a shooting opportunity. However, a handball that is not deliberate can be pulled up if the referee's personal interpretation is that the player's body was made unnaturally bigger unless it was part of his overall movement at that moment in time (ie if he was swinging round/changing direction it is natural to assume his arms might be out rather than by his side. 
The other part to it is if the hands are deemed to be in a natural position and it was not deliberate, but the player clearly controlled the ball using his hand or arm and thus has gained an advantage by doing so. By the laws of the game this is not handball, by the spirit of the game, which we must also take into consideration, it is or it might be. The Man City example is a good one for this dilemma - it can be argued that the player was shifting direction so his arm was out for balance therefore not in an unnatural position. However, in the spirit of the game he has used his arm to control the ball so it's handball.
But you can see how difficult some of these decisions are for referees (outside the Prem where there is no VAR), who have to make them in a split second and at a 100 miles per hour taking a lot of things into consideration. And that's if they get a clear sight of it. And they've got 10 players in their ear shouting different things.
The last bit @Unlucky Alf is about the QPR player. Look at the still when it happens. The ref has just blown for HT and has his eyes down on his notebook, which is perfectly reasonable. The incident takes place almost behind him. He cannot be expected to have seen it so he cannot send the player off. That's not bad refereeing or poor interpretation. Bad refereeing would have been to have guessed or assumed he'd pushed him and sent him off as a result of that guess. Referees are only human and in the EFL, with VAR, have only one pair of eyes, and can only judge on what they see.
Last one, the Morrison foul was a clear foul and a penalty. But if the ref was following the ball and in that split second didn't get a proper or clear view of it he can't give it. I'm not defending him here, just offering a different perspective.
It's easy to referee by TV with a wide angle where you can see lots of things at the same time. At ground level when you can't and there's lots going on all the time, believe me, it's a hard job. 

Talking to a Sheff Weds mate a couple of days ago - this season they were forced to have a clear out and have assembled a team of young players, some experience (keeping Bannan was massive) but, as he put it, a bit of a rag tag bunch. And they look set for play offs. So there's hope!!

Talking to a Sheff Weds mate a couple of days ago - this season they were forced to have a clear out and have assembled a team of young players, some experience (keeping Bannan was massive) but, as he put it, a bit of a rag tag bunch. And they look set for play offs. So there's hope!!

Talking to a Sheff Weds mate a couple of days ago - this season they were forced to have a clear out and have assembled a team of young players, some experience (keeping Bannan was massive) but, as he put it, a bit of a rag tag bunch. And they look set for play offs. So there's hope!!

Just reading through this thread for the first time and thought I'd offer a perspective from someone who referees most weekends at a senior county level. I'm not picking on you @Unlucky Alf but your post above and the conversation around it with @AndyinLiverpoolraises a couple of points. 
Firstly, you're both right in a way on this. Most handballs are not handballs because they are not deliberate and do not lead directly to a shooting opportunity. However, a handball that is not deliberate can be pulled up if the referee's personal interpretation is that the player's body was made unnaturally bigger unless it was part of his overall movement at that moment in time (ie if he was swinging round/changing direction it is natural to assume his arms might be out rather than by his side. 
The other part to it is if the hands are deemed to be in a natural position and it was not deliberate, but the player clearly controlled the ball using his hand or arm and thus has gained an advantage by doing so. By the laws of the game this is not handball, by the spirit of the game, which we must also take into consideration, it is or it might be. The Man City example is a good one for this dilemma - it can be argued that the player was shifting direction so his arm was out for balance therefore not in an unnatural position. However, in the spirit of the game he has used his arm to control the ball so it's handball.
But you can see how difficult some of these decisions are for referees (outside the Prem where there is no VAR), who have to make them in a split second and at a 100 miles per hour taking a lot of things into consideration. And that's if they get a clear sight of it. And they've got 10 players in their ear shouting different things.
The last bit @Unlucky Alf is about the QPR player. Look at the still when it happens. The ref has just blown for HT and has his eyes down on his notebook, which is perfectly reasonable. The incident takes place almost behind him. He cannot be expected to have seen it so he cannot send the player off. That's not bad refereeing or poor interpretation. Bad refereeing would have been to have guessed or assumed he'd pushed him and sent him off as a result of that guess. Referees are only human and in the EFL, with VAR, have only one pair of eyes, and can only judge on what they see.
Last one, the Morrison foul was a clear foul and a penalty. But if the ref was following the ball and in that split second didn't get a proper or clear view of it he can't give it. I'm not defending him here, just offering a different perspective.
It's easy to referee by TV with a wide angle where you can see lots of things at the same time. At ground level when you can't and there's lots going on all the time, believe me, it's a hard job. 

Tbh I've completely lost track of what point you're trying to make through all of this. Of course the referees know the rules, the amount of work they have to do away from the pitch at this level is huge. I've had to do plenty of laws of the game exams and I ref at a very low level.
In the Morrison situation, he just got it wrong, and there's a few reasons why that might have been. Only he and his team on the day know for sure. But we've probably exhausted all this now and I'm sure everyone is bored, so let's call it quits.
 

At that moment if the lino saw a clear penalty he could signal it to the referee. He didn't which means he either felt the referee was closer and had a better view (which is true) so left the decision to him, didn't see it because he was obscured by other players in front of him, or did see it and didn't think it was a foul and that Morrison was playing for a penalty. I imagine it was the first as the ref was very close and had a much better view - no linesman is going to overrule him there and ultimately it all rests on him. If you're looking at something close up and I'm 20 yards away and argue that what you're looking at is wrong, you're only going to say one thing back to me!
Linos take left back so his angle means he might not be able to see as there will be players in the way plus he'll be looking at the movement of the ball plus at the same time checking the second to last defender to make sure he's in line for any offside call.Also, the moment of impact was potentially side on to his position so his view of the impact might be being blocked by the challenging player.  On the other side the lino is either at the halfway line or in line with the second to last defender in their half so at pitch level won't get a good view as to whether there's contact or Morrison is diving.
To take the point in bold, yes of course, if at any stage a linesman sees something he can draw the ref's attention to it, but it's a hell of a lot easier to see someone punching someone than it is judging whether a tackle is a foul when you're looking from distance, especially in the penalty area where players go to ground so easily. Obviously the linesman can draw the ref's attention to something - elsewhere in this thread someone mentioned the hands-to-face incident between the QPR and Luton player. The ref clearly doesn't see it, but if the linesman does he can tell the ref who can then send him off. But obviously the linesmen didn't see it clearly either. 
The 4th officials role is to keep that part of the pitch in order, draw attention to the ref for disorder or infringements from the technical areas (players,officials, third parties) or maybe the stands behind him if something is thrown for example, sort out substitutions and be ready if a replacement is required on the officials team. He won't rule on a foul unless something happens right in front of him and the ref asks for his view. But certainly not a penalty where he's viewing from distance.
By the way I'm not defending the officials in the Morrison incident - it was a foul and they got it wrong. Equally, I thought it might help to just bring in some of the considerations the officials have. 

At that moment if the lino saw a clear penalty he could signal it to the referee. He didn't which means he either felt the referee was closer and had a better view (which is true) so left the decision to him, didn't see it because he was obscured by other players in front of him, or did see it and didn't think it was a foul and that Morrison was playing for a penalty. I imagine it was the first as the ref was very close and had a much better view - no linesman is going to overrule him there and ultimately it all rests on him. If you're looking at something close up and I'm 20 yards away and argue that what you're looking at is wrong, you're only going to say one thing back to me!
Linos take left back so his angle means he might not be able to see as there will be players in the way plus he'll be looking at the movement of the ball plus at the same time checking the second to last defender to make sure he's in line for any offside call.Also, the moment of impact was potentially side on to his position so his view of the impact might be being blocked by the challenging player.  On the other side the lino is either at the halfway line or in line with the second to last defender in their half so at pitch level won't get a good view as to whether there's contact or Morrison is diving.
To take the point in bold, yes of course, if at any stage a linesman sees something he can draw the ref's attention to it, but it's a hell of a lot easier to see someone punching someone than it is judging whether a tackle is a foul when you're looking from distance, especially in the penalty area where players go to ground so easily. Obviously the linesman can draw the ref's attention to something - elsewhere in this thread someone mentioned the hands-to-face incident between the QPR and Luton player. The ref clearly doesn't see it, but if the linesman does he can tell the ref who can then send him off. But obviously the linesmen didn't see it clearly either. 
The 4th officials role is to keep that part of the pitch in order, draw attention to the ref for disorder or infringements from the technical areas (players,officials, third parties) or maybe the stands behind him if something is thrown for example, sort out substitutions and be ready if a replacement is required on the officials team. He won't rule on a foul unless something happens right in front of him and the ref asks for his view. But certainly not a penalty where he's viewing from distance.
By the way I'm not defending the officials in the Morrison incident - it was a foul and they got it wrong. Equally, I thought it might help to just bring in some of the considerations the officials have. 

Last night aside, I’d say Allsop’s been a contender. He’s certainly been performing well for at least as long as Byrne has.

Any chance that we could have this renamed 'Refereeing' or something so we don't appear completely paranoid. It's the sort of things that other fans pick up on to describe us as deluded.
Do I think we have been seriously hard done by recently ? Yes I do. We are certainly not getting the rub of the green at the moment with decisions, but I don't believe for one minute that it is part of grand evil plot by anybody. We have been denied clear penalties for sure but we have thrown away so many points this season that had nothing to do with referees - Blackburn was a prime example, as was the farce at Peterborough in injury time. Happy to discuss the ins and outs of refs and rules but perhaps we should steer clear of tin foil hat syndrome. Just my opinion...

Are 'star jumps' in front of an opponent with the ball allowed?

Just reading through this thread for the first time and thought I'd offer a perspective from someone who referees most weekends at a senior county level. I'm not picking on you @Unlucky Alf but your post above and the conversation around it with @AndyinLiverpoolraises a couple of points. 
Firstly, you're both right in a way on this. Most handballs are not handballs because they are not deliberate and do not lead directly to a shooting opportunity. However, a handball that is not deliberate can be pulled up if the referee's personal interpretation is that the player's body was made unnaturally bigger unless it was part of his overall movement at that moment in time (ie if he was swinging round/changing direction it is natural to assume his arms might be out rather than by his side. 
The other part to it is if the hands are deemed to be in a natural position and it was not deliberate, but the player clearly controlled the ball using his hand or arm and thus has gained an advantage by doing so. By the laws of the game this is not handball, by the spirit of the game, which we must also take into consideration, it is or it might be. The Man City example is a good one for this dilemma - it can be argued that the player was shifting direction so his arm was out for balance therefore not in an unnatural position. However, in the spirit of the game he has used his arm to control the ball so it's handball.
But you can see how difficult some of these decisions are for referees (outside the Prem where there is no VAR), who have to make them in a split second and at a 100 miles per hour taking a lot of things into consideration. And that's if they get a clear sight of it. And they've got 10 players in their ear shouting different things.
The last bit @Unlucky Alf is about the QPR player. Look at the still when it happens. The ref has just blown for HT and has his eyes down on his notebook, which is perfectly reasonable. The incident takes place almost behind him. He cannot be expected to have seen it so he cannot send the player off. That's not bad refereeing or poor interpretation. Bad refereeing would have been to have guessed or assumed he'd pushed him and sent him off as a result of that guess. Referees are only human and in the EFL, with VAR, have only one pair of eyes, and can only judge on what they see.
Last one, the Morrison foul was a clear foul and a penalty. But if the ref was following the ball and in that split second didn't get a proper or clear view of it he can't give it. I'm not defending him here, just offering a different perspective.
It's easy to referee by TV with a wide angle where you can see lots of things at the same time. At ground level when you can't and there's lots going on all the time, believe me, it's a hard job. 

Just reading through this thread for the first time and thought I'd offer a perspective from someone who referees most weekends at a senior county level. I'm not picking on you @Unlucky Alf but your post above and the conversation around it with @AndyinLiverpoolraises a couple of points. 
Firstly, you're both right in a way on this. Most handballs are not handballs because they are not deliberate and do not lead directly to a shooting opportunity. However, a handball that is not deliberate can be pulled up if the referee's personal interpretation is that the player's body was made unnaturally bigger unless it was part of his overall movement at that moment in time (ie if he was swinging round/changing direction it is natural to assume his arms might be out rather than by his side. 
The other part to it is if the hands are deemed to be in a natural position and it was not deliberate, but the player clearly controlled the ball using his hand or arm and thus has gained an advantage by doing so. By the laws of the game this is not handball, by the spirit of the game, which we must also take into consideration, it is or it might be. The Man City example is a good one for this dilemma - it can be argued that the player was shifting direction so his arm was out for balance therefore not in an unnatural position. However, in the spirit of the game he has used his arm to control the ball so it's handball.
But you can see how difficult some of these decisions are for referees (outside the Prem where there is no VAR), who have to make them in a split second and at a 100 miles per hour taking a lot of things into consideration. And that's if they get a clear sight of it. And they've got 10 players in their ear shouting different things.
The last bit @Unlucky Alf is about the QPR player. Look at the still when it happens. The ref has just blown for HT and has his eyes down on his notebook, which is perfectly reasonable. The incident takes place almost behind him. He cannot be expected to have seen it so he cannot send the player off. That's not bad refereeing or poor interpretation. Bad refereeing would have been to have guessed or assumed he'd pushed him and sent him off as a result of that guess. Referees are only human and in the EFL, with VAR, have only one pair of eyes, and can only judge on what they see.
Last one, the Morrison foul was a clear foul and a penalty. But if the ref was following the ball and in that split second didn't get a proper or clear view of it he can't give it. I'm not defending him here, just offering a different perspective.
It's easy to referee by TV with a wide angle where you can see lots of things at the same time. At ground level when you can't and there's lots going on all the time, believe me, it's a hard job. 

Surely just the fact your missus thinks its a stupid idea is reason enough to go.