Shaftesbury Street

Davies , Mengi , Jagielka, Morrison, A loan striker

14 hours ago, Mucker1884 said:

So what does that mean exactly?

Are you no longer a fan?  Will you refuse to go to games?  Have you started to tell folks that you are not interested in football, or do you express a fondness for a different team now?

What exactly happens when we run out of patience with our beloved football club?

#intrigued
 

I'm going to support Forest. I'm no longer going to go to games. I now like Netball, cracking sport.

Patience with the current ownership.

I really need to proof read these messages if I'm getting replies like this, clearly I'm not communicating very well.?‍♂️

1 hour ago, ollycutts1982 said:

Message me hun. XX

Still at Dorlec Limited Olly?

8 minutes ago, Spanish said:

Mel will still be responsible for the running of the club

Can he afford too? Or we will be paying the team late racking up -3 point s every month in the process

If one of our many journalist do not get anything from them, I doubt Joe average fan will get a response.

I have ran out of patience now. The piss poor communication from the club is appalling. What contingencies do we have if dont find a buyer before season start? 

Given the two failed takeovers, I wouldn't be surprised if they waited until the ink has dried on the contracts before announcing anything. 

Can someone find the quote/interview where Pearce said even if we readjusted the accounts for amortisation we would still meet FFP requirements?

Really think Bellingham should start. Adds balance to the team in the midfield.

A 433 with Rice, Bellingham and Mount in the first three and then Sancho, Kane, Foden/Grealish up top.

12 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

So, had a phone call with a very helpful & knowledgeable chap from the FSA this afternoon. He didn’t dismiss the idea of fans taking over at Derby & believed a well-supported one club city would stand a better chance than most to bring about a successful fan ownership model. He also made reference to the Fan Led Review – a task force set up by Government that is specifically looking at facilitating greater fan control of clubs & sustainability. This is due to report later this year on recommendations.

He did however warn it would be extremely difficult, that the Championship in particular was a basketcase division & threw around some horrifying amounts that benevolent chairmen have had to spend to keep their clubs competitive (including Mel). Nothing to be fair we'd didn't already suspect.

Asked him a few questions on behalf of interested parties on here;

Q Have you had many past enquiries from fans of other big clubs? What were the sticking points?

Yes, plenty. General issue is either that the cost of the club is prohibitively expensive or the size of the debt is far too high for fans to reasonably service

Q What are the different types of fan ownership models?

Two main types; conventional Limited Company (with shares) or a CBS (Community Benefit Society) which is basically a mutual co-operative. A CBS has to have one member one vote irrespective of member contribution & any profits have to be ploughed back into the business. There is also potentially corporation tax exemption

Q Ways of raising money to fund a fan buyout?

Either selling shares in a conventional Limited company or via debentures/supporter bond – basically fans lend money to the new ownership group at a low rate of annual interest. Also very wise to go after High Net Worth individuals who support the club – this was the basis of the successful buy in at Portsmouth in 2013 & the purchase of the new Plough Lane ground by AFC Wimbledon in 2019

Q Standard fan involvement in fan owned clubs?

Generally is a membership scheme for a small fee which entitles each member to a vote. Supporters are then able to vote for members to be appointed to the Board, who will then appoint a Chief Executive to run the actual club (this is the model AFC Wimbledon use). Other big decisions such as a badge change, significant changes to ground etc will also go back to the membership but these can vary depending on what fans agree from the outset should go to a vote.

Q Best way of organising fans into a collective to launch a fan led buyout

Supporters Trust (yes, Ramstrust). They have the connections to FSA & are meant to represent the supporters’ interest as a whole.

 

Obviously the last point may not sit well with a few on here, particularly given the recent letter sent to the club on ‘behalf of the fans’ (I personally have no opinion on them). The guy I spoke to made it clear Ramstrust’s connections with the FSA meant they wouldn’t want to seriously engage with another DCFC group for fear of causing offence & that it would be in our best interests to bring all fan groups together (he also referenced Punjabi Rams). He certainly knew the individuals heading up Ramstrust & was also aware of some of the ill feeling from 2002-2005.

I hope the information above helps to give some perspective. I was also advised to speak to a colleague of his (when he returned from holiday) who actually led the fan buyout of Portsmouth in 2013. Think his knowledge would be invaluable particularly given similarities between a) Portsmouth & Derby as football clubs/fanbases & b) the debt mountain that had accumulated under previous ownerships

Before going down that avenue though, I think the ball is back in our court as fans i.e. is this something people want to come together & seriously look at?

For me, the route looks something a bit like this;

• Form a specific group via this forum to throw around some ideas especially around gaining support from wider fanbase, getting funding & ideas for a potential constitution and then agree on a draft plan
• Approach major DCFC fan groups; yes, RamsTrust but also Punjabi Rams to present our plan, sell them the idea & then work on an actionable plan going forward. If this goes well, probably a good time to speak to the FSA contact who led the Portsmouth buyout for specific advice before ‘going public’
• Potential two-pronged attack; float idea to fans across all social media channels/ conventional advertising in Derbyshire explaining the plan & asking for pledge of funds and target high net worth Derby fans to see if they can also commit to a pledge of funding
• Depending on what amount can credibly be raised via fans (and possibly externally) approach the club. We’re not going raise anywhere near £60m but a serious fraction of that may at least get us round a table

No doubt about it, this is a real long shot but it’s going to happen to a large club one day – why couldn’t it be us? And even if it doesn’t come off, the thought of bringing the fanbase together & actually being proactive rather than passively accepting our fate, could recharge energy & enthusiasm amongst us.

Maybe naïve but that’s my take ?

Thanks for going into such detail, really good insight.

Obviously a lot of roadblocks for this. In terms of action, that depends on how the club looks in the next 6 months or so. If we are ever in a position where the clubs future is in doubt, I would urge other fans/supporters groups to take a serious look at this. 

8 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Haven't read the thread so apologies if this has been alluded to already, but the Union Berlin model seems to me to be something to aspire to. It was, however, predicated as much upon the unshakeable support of the fans as their financial contributions and with our fanbase descending into the realms of Month Python-like splinter factions, it's hard to see any such endeavour working at Derby.

Let's be honest here. Fan ownership would tear this club apart quicker than any number of poor owners, that's how fickle we've become. 

That fickle attitude has stemmed from poor communication, poor financial decisions and fans not having a voice when it matters. 

Of course it doesn't have to be a fan owned model to improve this a lot of the above can improved with better ownership but the attitudes of fans will change drastically when they feel they are a part of something.

The fan experience in German football is something else and albeit not the main reason, but the 51% contributes to that 'our club' mentality which builds that unflinching support.

Cheap tickets and beer might also help ?

8 hours ago, kevinhectoring said:

Surely fans could have no say at all in any operational matters. The democracy comes from their right to appoint the board. Like any old company. 

Yes, but the fans set the structure on how the club should be run, the board implement a plan based on that structure and an elected fan representative signs it off. 

2 hours ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Spot on. Just because the culture in England is for owner managed clubs to run up big losses chasing the dream & blind hope that one day a petro-billionaire will arrive, doesn't mean thats the only way to run a club.

After all the bad publicity & financial waste of the past 6 years, it'd be brilliant for Derby to be a shining example to the rest of the top 2 divisions of what fans can achieve.

I keep harking back to two things; our fanbase gives us massive advantages at this level, we should leverage it much better. And the example of AFC Wimbledon in the division below is testament to how fans can build & run a successful club.

I honesty believe a break even model at Derby without the boom & bust cycles of the past 3 decades, will lead to greater success than we've had in the last 30 years.

100% agree. 

I think Alan Sugar recently suggested what a farcical idea it was to have an average joe make key decisions about the club (or group collective). I would rather put my trust with the fans than have years have poor decisions from a dictator, oil tycoon or random American consortium. Also lets not pretend that running a football club is like anything else. I know many people that have had personal dealings with Mel, all have said what brilliant business man he is. You would have thought a ridiculously wealthy Derby fan, with immense business pedigree would would be a dream owner for our club and through either desperation or ego it has turned out to be the exact opposite.

That's not to say you can't have a great package in a individual owner and it working well (Leicester) but there are not many examples of that. If the pandemic and ESL has proven anything its that football is broken and fans need to have a greater voice. I'm not sure if a 51% model is the answer for Derby but if there is a genuine threat of liquidation, its definitely something we should explore.

24 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Its an idea that I would really like to see work & totally agree with your points about change in recruitment & the need to sell players to progress. I wouldn't actually see it as a backward step either.

From a financials point of view, we turnover around £30m a year - earnt income in other words. Therefore the gap between the costs of running the club & the £30m is what fans would need to stump up each year. Looking at the 16/17 and 17/18 accounts, that is around £40m and tallies with @Carnero point about GSE having to find circa £10m a season to cover the shortfall back when they ran the club.

So we'd have 2 options really;

1. We continue to run a staff cost of circa £40m assuming that this is the minimum outlay we'd need to be seriously competitive in the division especially from a wages perspective. £10m a season equates to 1000 fans stumping up £10k a season if the club were wholly fan owned. Of course that amount would be diluted if we could have a 50+1 German model, where 49% of the club was owned by businessmen.
2. We insist on a model where costs can never exceed that turnover figure of £30m. This would necessitate a fundamental restructure of the club as you allude to with the Academy becoming an essential route to providing first team players & looking to buy players with potential from lower leagues & improve them. It would also require a long term approach to being successful & a total departure from glamour names, quick fix solutions & a massive dose of fan patience. This would be my preference.

Given the size of the club/fanbase in relation to the rest of the EFL, we are best placed to make something like this work (with the possible exception of Sunderland & maybe Sheff Wednesday). If we looked to adopt option 1, I think we'd need to be realistic about how many fans would be able to fund the club in this way - anything more than 1000 is fanciful & some would even think that many people is too many. 

The other key issue is how to organise ourselves as a fan collective & how to put people with serious talent at the forefront of a fans buyout. Ramstrust would seem an obvious conduit but know there was a lot of factionalism back in 2005/6 when various groups took it upon themselves to unsettle the 3 Amigos & then started claiming credit/abusing other groups when Gadsby et al slung the parasites out.

In summary, yes I think its definitely possible. I will try & do some reading on the ownership structures & stories of AFC Wimbledon, Hearts & the German ownership model to see if there's anything else to glean there. 

That's some really good insight and encouraging that its not a pipe dream for a championship club!

In regards to who would front it, I think it would need to be something fresh with an elected representative each year (or three for consistency).

3 minutes ago, Carnero said:

It wouldn't take £30m a year to run a sensible mid-level championship club, under GSE's final years the net shortfall was around £8m/year which I would require funding. Sensible wage control is the answer to football's financial problems, but just never happens.

Do you think an academy model would fix that? It would a be revolving door, but a recently promoted academy players wages would be significantly less. 

13 minutes ago, MrPlinkett said:

Hopefully if we ever do become a fan owned group, that group of fans can find their way to agree on matters better than we do on this forum. ?

Democracy based voting, might be less whinging from the stands if they had a say...or more ha.

1 minute ago, Tamworthram said:

I assume you’ve based your 20k that would invest on our typical home attendance/season ticket sales. If so, don’t forget, many of those are kids (or other concessions) that clearly wouldn’t be able to invest such an amount. Also, what’s about the upfront costs to purchase the club/pay off the debts?

It’s a nice idea but I can’t see how it could work. You’d effectively be floating the club and issuing shares which would mean you’d either need a wealthy investor (which kind of defeats the object) or a lot more investors just to buy the club and then annual “subscriptions” to cover costs would have to be pretty much in line with season ticket prices. That’s how I see it anyway.

In that example, the point I was making was a pure fan owned model wouldn't work.

Although there are people like myself that haven't had a season ticket for years, but would happily invest as part ownership. Hard to judge what that membership could be. 

Interested to hear peoples thoughts on this and if its actually a viable option. 

Just from a fag packet maths point of view (and the numbers being floated about) we would need £30 mill a year to run the club. This might improve as the costs are reduced and fans return but as a rough estimate. Then if we assume maybe 20k would invest, that's £1500 per year, per fan. Yeah....

The only way I can see that working, is if its propped up by a wealthy backer for a large share (or 49%) and fans have the main voting rights. 

We would also need to completely throw out our recruitment process. Potentially becoming an academy focused/ feeder club. I'd have no problem with this, so long as we set the player values in a tiered system and a 'the price is the price' policy. So we don't get our pants pulled down in the transfer market. (Tier 5 500k, tier 4 £1m, tiers 3 £1m-£3m) all with sell ons.

If money does come in for a player, we would need to either put that back into the academy or buy realistic targets. Maybe a more data led/ moneyball approach. Its not a perfect system at Brentford but its a hell of lot better system then ours! Big money sale, all 'member' fans to be reimbursed that season.

I appreciate this is dreamland, but with the pandemic, ESL and the very real prospect of our club going under, just thought I'd put it out there. 

Maybe someone with a bit of financial/ accounting background can tell me its a ridiculous idea ??‍♂️

Wasn't this paid back in full last year?

47 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

It was Waghorn

Those two goals at the weekend must have really rub salt in Gibsons wounds ?

Taking Kieran Maguires assumed £30m amortisation 'saved' and our published £14m profit in 17/18 can someone workout if we will still be in the £39m loss threshold? 

5 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

You missed the bit where we asked then if it was acceptable before we actually submitted the P&S figure to them

You would have thought that it is the EFL's job to review and reject any dodgy P&S accounts. They didn't and consistently signed it off.

So it's either negligence or they have accepted it at the time and Rick Parry has come in and decided to retrospectively take action.

What we have done is wrong, but the buck stops with the EFL in my opinion.

What I can't get my head around is that we have knowingly pushed the rules. Submitted them, expecting them to be rejected, but they haven't and we have continued to operate that way. On that basis, they cannot retrospectively punish us.

Also what we have done is not some random new way of reviewing assets, its common practice, so the notion that we have pulled the wool over their eyes is absolute tosh. 

2 minutes ago, Spanish said:

I think that would be a massive job when the ERV and past amortisation is unknown, pure guesswork but if it is insignificant cant understand the focus

Just thinking ballpark, I'm trying to understand how much added benefit it gave us. So if it says an extra £7mill in player values. Over lineal or depreciating scale, with the stadium sale, would that still keep us in the clear?

Does anyone know what the accounts look like with the amortisation realigned but the stadium sale included?