San Fran Van Rams

I'm not sure how they'd shunt loans around without other clubs needing and agreeing and being able to pay back the money? Surely they couldn't just effectively let the other clubs off, or force one club to pay up in order to take control of another? The financial knock-on effects of that would seriously put in doubt the spirit and legitimacy of the competition, would they not?
 
The part of the EFL rules covering joint interests is at https://www.efl.com/-more/governance/efl-rules--regulations/sections-10--11---association-and-dual-interests-and-additional-provisions/ - section 105.
 
I suppose it would then hinge on the bits in bold, the first of which is explained with
...but what constitutes "the ordinary course of banking" is up for dispute - other clubs tried to get our MSD loan cancelled on the premise that it wasn't, but nothing came of that challenge.

The coyness on the stadium tells it all IMO (and lack of follow through from Ed to determine how it is brought back into DCFC hands), quite obtuse statement regarding his ownership of stadium, only a reference that across the overall sum of his tenure, even despite retention of the stadium, that he will still lose out. So what does that mean? It basically reads to me  that he has gambled, lost, and taken the stadium as a form of collateral to reduce his loss. If he was as benevolent as he claims he is he'd gift the stadium back to the club and truly walk away with nothing, he obviously has no intention of doing that. So his recklessness to get out of this division was effectively mortgaged against our home which Lionel Pickering ultimately gifted the city and club. I don't care about a lot of things but to lose our stadium in this is unforgivable, the stadium should be an asset with the club in this admin package, the fact it isn't is a real, real shame.

Clubs will have all kinds of loans from the same bank, investor etc. Only an ownership interest would result in a conflict I'd have thought. I'm not aware MSD own any interest in other clubs. 

I'm starting to wonder whether that is really the aim or if the aim should be to have a sustainable club which plays good football week to week? 
Supporting a football club is unlike anything I can think of. It's tribal. It's a romance. It's a rollercoaster of emotions. It's the thing you have no control over yet yearn for it do the best it possibly can, and shout as loudly as you can to 'help' it do that. 
Ive got to the point that all I want is to be able watch Derby be competitive in the league it is in. Score goals. Play some good looking football. Show passion for badge. 
The current structure of the premier and English football League is so utterly broken that's its untenable to compete in the top league without a billionaire backer who wants to use it as a vanity project. This is now impacting the second tier to the point where it's getting to be the same. You can't compete without rolling the dice and spending above your means. 
As many others have said. Football as we know it is dying. The European Super League will go ahead at some point in the future as soon as fans realize the league pyramid we love isn't a pyramid at all and relegation will only impact those clubs who aren't being funded by billionaires.

The official Derby statement on Friday night says MSD have put in additional recent funding:
"We are especially grateful to MSD Partners, who have been hugely supportive and have provided additional financial assistance this year, going far beyond the original loan it provided in August 2020."

The timing is so odd in satisfying the Barclays charge. Only reason i can think of is that it makes it easier for MSD to take control of the stadium and Moor Farm. Perhaps it was more palatable for Mel to transfer these assets to MSD this way as opposed to selling it to them out right. Doesn't make a lot of sense in my mind unless MSD expect to buy the club. Even then, I keep coming back to the question as to why MSD didn't just buy the club from Mel as opposed to letting it get into this mess. Assume it's cheaper for them to do it this way and they've just had Mel's pants down.
You mention their additional financing. Did MSD provide additional funding recently?

The MSD link is interesting. There's a link in another thread to an article about a similar loan to Sunderland which was secured against club assets.
If the club transfers to MSD in the event the club defaults on the loan, perhaps this is a cheaper way for MSD to take control. I don't understand why the statement was so complimentary of MSD if this is the case, unless they had a hand in writing it as a way of getting fans onside early. 
It does seem there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. We're not formally in admin yet and it does seem that MSD will ultimately make that decision.

Isn't the stadium a community asset or something that protects it status?

Companies house settled on 9/14

The MSD link is interesting. There's a link in another thread to an article about a similar loan to Sunderland which was secured against club assets.
If the club transfers to MSD in the event the club defaults on the loan, perhaps this is a cheaper way for MSD to take control. I don't understand why the statement was so complimentary of MSD if this is the case, unless they had a hand in writing it as a way of getting fans onside early. 
It does seem there is a lot more to this than meets the eye. We're not formally in admin yet and it does seem that MSD will ultimately make that decision.

Isn't the stadium a community asset or something that protects it status?

Isn't the stadium a community asset or something that protects it status?

Completely agree that is the riches of the prem which make it extremely difficult for clubs below to adopt a partially fan owned structure.
However, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be. The Prem is what is wrecking English football and our pyramid. It will turn into a US type league at some point soon with franchise clubs who can't get relegated and the rest left to fend for themselves, probably much more like football was pre Premier league. 
And I think this is exactly why football is broken. It governed as a business. It shouldn't be subject to the same rules as private companies who have little public utility. Football clubs are more like local infrastructure and need protecting on behalf of the communities they are so vital for. 
It'll take a wide reaching change with new regs and agreement from premiership clubs for fan ownership and for boards to run clubs in the interests of fans as opposed to their millionaire shareholders but I'm starting to think it's the only option.

I saw a post on Twitter earlier calling into question the Board and the fact it consisted of Mel as owner and chair, Pearce as the CEO and ultimately Mel's lackey, and Roy McFarland as an ex player and kind of fan representative. The premise being that the Derby board wasn't strong or experienced enough to properly run the club with an inability to challenge the decisions being made to ensure they were being done in the best and long term interests of the club and it's supporter base. 
Football is no longer a sport but a business and fans are not always front and center of club owner, Board, or senior management's thoughts. The promise of riches is. This is the disconnect we're now seeing and which ultimately is causing the strife at Derby, and has caused the myriad of issues at other clubs in the EFL.
One way to potentially solve this is by improving board governance. Ensuring there are independent directors appointed with veto voting rights that have a duty to act in the best interests of supporters, but are experienced and knowledgeable enough to understand the business risks associated with the decisions being made and the ability to challenge and push back as needed. 
I'm not saying that this would have solved all issues. But, given the problems with Sam Rush, the seeming ineptitude of Pearce (or his complete inability to stand up to his boss) and the gambling without consequence of Mel Morris, it may lessened the likelihood of administration.
We need to learn from history and do what we can to stop it happening again, or stop it  from happening to others. 

I saw a post on Twitter earlier calling into question the Board and the fact it consisted of Mel as owner and chair, Pearce as the CEO and ultimately Mel's lackey, and Roy McFarland as an ex player and kind of fan representative. The premise being that the Derby board wasn't strong or experienced enough to properly run the club with an inability to challenge the decisions being made to ensure they were being done in the best and long term interests of the club and it's supporter base. 
Football is no longer a sport but a business and fans are not always front and center of club owner, Board, or senior management's thoughts. The promise of riches is. This is the disconnect we're now seeing and which ultimately is causing the strife at Derby, and has caused the myriad of issues at other clubs in the EFL.
One way to potentially solve this is by improving board governance. Ensuring there are independent directors appointed with veto voting rights that have a duty to act in the best interests of supporters, but are experienced and knowledgeable enough to understand the business risks associated with the decisions being made and the ability to challenge and push back as needed. 
I'm not saying that this would have solved all issues. But, given the problems with Sam Rush, the seeming ineptitude of Pearce (or his complete inability to stand up to his boss) and the gambling without consequence of Mel Morris, it may lessened the likelihood of administration.
We need to learn from history and do what we can to stop it happening again, or stop it  from happening to others. 

Its pretty dispiriting reading some of these replies. In the situation we find ourselves in, there seems to be a blind faith that a benevolent group of 'investors' will come in & make everything alright. Have we not learnt anything?
In normal times, Derby earn circa 30m turnover...some of it TV money but majority ticket sales & merchanise sales. To put into context, our non-TV turnover will be top 5 in the EFL & in terms of overall turnover, only the clubs with parachute payments will exceed that. The point here is that we have a massive advantage over most at this level & hence the balanced budgets a Supporters Trust would be required to run  would be a realistic ambition to financially run a top 10 Championship club. For those thinking this would be our ceiling, I would argue a) its a damned sight better than where we are now & b) being in that group would keep us in the hunt for a playoff spot especially if we have a breakthrough moment with a very good manager or youth crop/savvy transfers coming good
In terms of organising it, yes the Ramstrust would be the vehicle. I spoke to the Football Supporters Federation back in May about this & they confirmed support/advice would go to Ramstrust as first refusal. Reality though is the supporters trust must be representative of the fanbase hence elections & people being held accountable i.e. the current group can be moulded away from what people perceive them to be at present
The best practice of Trust ownership currently are AFC Wimbledon, 4th in League One with a new stadium. Much smaller fanbase than us & rose from deep non-league. It can be done. We dont realise how powerful we are as fans & our club has a bigger reach than most.

Completely agree that is the riches of the prem which make it extremely difficult for clubs below to adopt a partially fan owned structure.
However, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be. The Prem is what is wrecking English football and our pyramid. It will turn into a US type league at some point soon with franchise clubs who can't get relegated and the rest left to fend for themselves, probably much more like football was pre Premier league. 
And I think this is exactly why football is broken. It governed as a business. It shouldn't be subject to the same rules as private companies who have little public utility. Football clubs are more like local infrastructure and need protecting on behalf of the communities they are so vital for. 
It'll take a wide reaching change with new regs and agreement from premiership clubs for fan ownership and for boards to run clubs in the interests of fans as opposed to their millionaire shareholders but I'm starting to think it's the only option.

I'm starting to wonder whether that is really the aim or if the aim should be to have a sustainable club which plays good football week to week? 
Supporting a football club is unlike anything I can think of. It's tribal. It's a romance. It's a rollercoaster of emotions. It's the thing you have no control over yet yearn for it do the best it possibly can, and shout as loudly as you can to 'help' it do that. 
Ive got to the point that all I want is to be able watch Derby be competitive in the league it is in. Score goals. Play some good looking football. Show passion for badge. 
The current structure of the premier and English football League is so utterly broken that's its untenable to compete in the top league without a billionaire backer who wants to use it as a vanity project. This is now impacting the second tier to the point where it's getting to be the same. You can't compete without rolling the dice and spending above your means. 
As many others have said. Football as we know it is dying. The European Super League will go ahead at some point in the future as soon as fans realize the league pyramid we love isn't a pyramid at all and relegation will only impact those clubs who aren't being funded by billionaires.

I'm starting to wonder whether that is really the aim or if the aim should be to have a sustainable club which plays good football week to week? 
Supporting a football club is unlike anything I can think of. It's tribal. It's a romance. It's a rollercoaster of emotions. It's the thing you have no control over yet yearn for it do the best it possibly can, and shout as loudly as you can to 'help' it do that. 
Ive got to the point that all I want is to be able watch Derby be competitive in the league it is in. Score goals. Play some good looking football. Show passion for badge. 
The current structure of the premier and English football League is so utterly broken that's its untenable to compete in the top league without a billionaire backer who wants to use it as a vanity project. This is now impacting the second tier to the point where it's getting to be the same. You can't compete without rolling the dice and spending above your means. 
As many others have said. Football as we know it is dying. The European Super League will go ahead at some point in the future as soon as fans realize the league pyramid we love isn't a pyramid at all and relegation will only impact those clubs who aren't being funded by billionaires.

I saw a post on Twitter earlier calling into question the Board and the fact it consisted of Mel as owner and chair, Pearce as the CEO and ultimately Mel's lackey, and Roy McFarland as an ex player and kind of fan representative. The premise being that the Derby board wasn't strong or experienced enough to properly run the club with an inability to challenge the decisions being made to ensure they were being done in the best and long term interests of the club and it's supporter base. 
Football is no longer a sport but a business and fans are not always front and center of club owner, Board, or senior management's thoughts. The promise of riches is. This is the disconnect we're now seeing and which ultimately is causing the strife at Derby, and has caused the myriad of issues at other clubs in the EFL.
One way to potentially solve this is by improving board governance. Ensuring there are independent directors appointed with veto voting rights that have a duty to act in the best interests of supporters, but are experienced and knowledgeable enough to understand the business risks associated with the decisions being made and the ability to challenge and push back as needed. 
I'm not saying that this would have solved all issues. But, given the problems with Sam Rush, the seeming ineptitude of Pearce (or his complete inability to stand up to his boss) and the gambling without consequence of Mel Morris, it may lessened the likelihood of administration.
We need to learn from history and do what we can to stop it happening again, or stop it  from happening to others. 

I'm starting to wonder whether that is really the aim or if the aim should be to have a sustainable club which plays good football week to week? 
Supporting a football club is unlike anything I can think of. It's tribal. It's a romance. It's a rollercoaster of emotions. It's the thing you have no control over yet yearn for it do the best it possibly can, and shout as loudly as you can to 'help' it do that. 
Ive got to the point that all I want is to be able watch Derby be competitive in the league it is in. Score goals. Play some good looking football. Show passion for badge. 
The current structure of the premier and English football League is so utterly broken that's its untenable to compete in the top league without a billionaire backer who wants to use it as a vanity project. This is now impacting the second tier to the point where it's getting to be the same. You can't compete without rolling the dice and spending above your means. 
As many others have said. Football as we know it is dying. The European Super League will go ahead at some point in the future as soon as fans realize the league pyramid we love isn't a pyramid at all and relegation will only impact those clubs who aren't being funded by billionaires.

I'm starting to wonder whether that is really the aim or if the aim should be to have a sustainable club which plays good football week to week? 
Supporting a football club is unlike anything I can think of. It's tribal. It's a romance. It's a rollercoaster of emotions. It's the thing you have no control over yet yearn for it do the best it possibly can, and shout as loudly as you can to 'help' it do that. 
Ive got to the point that all I want is to be able watch Derby be competitive in the league it is in. Score goals. Play some good looking football. Show passion for badge. 
The current structure of the premier and English football League is so utterly broken that's its untenable to compete in the top league without a billionaire backer who wants to use it as a vanity project. This is now impacting the second tier to the point where it's getting to be the same. You can't compete without rolling the dice and spending above your means. 
As many others have said. Football as we know it is dying. The European Super League will go ahead at some point in the future as soon as fans realize the league pyramid we love isn't a pyramid at all and relegation will only impact those clubs who aren't being funded by billionaires.

I'm starting to wonder whether that is really the aim or if the aim should be to have a sustainable club which plays good football week to week? 
Supporting a football club is unlike anything I can think of. It's tribal. It's a romance. It's a rollercoaster of emotions. It's the thing you have no control over yet yearn for it do the best it possibly can, and shout as loudly as you can to 'help' it do that. 
Ive got to the point that all I want is to be able watch Derby be competitive in the league it is in. Score goals. Play some good looking football. Show passion for badge. 
The current structure of the premier and English football League is so utterly broken that's its untenable to compete in the top league without a billionaire backer who wants to use it as a vanity project. This is now impacting the second tier to the point where it's getting to be the same. You can't compete without rolling the dice and spending above your means. 
As many others have said. Football as we know it is dying. The European Super League will go ahead at some point in the future as soon as fans realize the league pyramid we love isn't a pyramid at all and relegation will only impact those clubs who aren't being funded by billionaires.

I saw a post on Twitter earlier calling into question the Board and the fact it consisted of Mel as owner and chair, Pearce as the CEO and ultimately Mel's lackey, and Roy McFarland as an ex player and kind of fan representative. The premise being that the Derby board wasn't strong or experienced enough to properly run the club with an inability to challenge the decisions being made to ensure they were being done in the best and long term interests of the club and it's supporter base. 
Football is no longer a sport but a business and fans are not always front and center of club owner, Board, or senior management's thoughts. The promise of riches is. This is the disconnect we're now seeing and which ultimately is causing the strife at Derby, and has caused the myriad of issues at other clubs in the EFL.
One way to potentially solve this is by improving board governance. Ensuring there are independent directors appointed with veto voting rights that have a duty to act in the best interests of supporters, but are experienced and knowledgeable enough to understand the business risks associated with the decisions being made and the ability to challenge and push back as needed. 
I'm not saying that this would have solved all issues. But, given the problems with Sam Rush, the seeming ineptitude of Pearce (or his complete inability to stand up to his boss) and the gambling without consequence of Mel Morris, it may lessened the likelihood of administration.
We need to learn from history and do what we can to stop it happening again, or stop it  from happening to others.