brady1993

10 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Don’t think he’ll blink. 2 seasons in div 1 is far from a disaster for DC   And he’s seen  all the good MM’s blinking did for us 

Maybe but ultimately 7th wasn't good enough for Rosenior, so I'm not convinced it will be good enough for anybody else. 

I hope you are right thats hes learned from MM's tenure and I agree that 2 seasons in League 1 is far from a disaster.

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

Would we have closed the defender down like that previously? 

#LonglivetheWarneRevolution #COYR

Oh I'm not commenting really on why. To be honest I think it's less about the initial closing down and more the overall pressure for continually doing and backing it up.

Just now, Ellafella said:

Best players first half: Cashin, Collins. 

Think I'd say its been Cashin by a decent amount because if it wasn't for him we could have been a couple down.

Good half on the whole with a couple interesting things:

- It's a very very attacking line up, there's almost an arrogance with how attacking we are currently shaping up.

- We aren't really playing with Wingbacks as such with both Barkhuzien given a lot of license to go forwards. 

- Still looking to play football which is good to see. A few more loose long balls but still an emphasis of keeping it on the deck just trying to get forwards faster. 

- The press is very aggressive, which is leading to a decent amount of pressure however there is gaps on occasion especially at the back especially with how attacking the line up is. Possibly looking like we need more pace at the back.

- Seems to be a high degree of fluidity in midfield. Bird isn't sitting at all really and has seemingly got a license to pop up wherever he wants. 

Whilst it was a good finish and we deserved it, that goal was a peak league one goal ?. 

A clearance into a centre back just completely missing the ball 

1 minute ago, Magicman said:

Line up is a 352 so Knight in midfield !

Is 352 confirmed? 

Slightly odd line up seems perhaps a touch unbalanced.

Hard to say if its (1)

     Chester  Davies  Cashin

NML Knight Bird Hourihane Barks

            Collins Dobbin 

(2)

      Chester Davies Cashin

Knight  Bird Hourihane  Barks 

         NML  Collins  Dobbin

(Or some variant on that front 3)

Or something like 

(3) 

Knight Chester Davies Cashin

NML   Bird Hourihane Barks 

            Collins Dobbin

So it's somewhere in the range of a  very attacking 352 to a kinda  negative 442. Interesting that he's potentially for two players who've said they don't want to play wingback there.

Also a bit surprised to see Dobbin in something that seems on paper as kinda a basic approach of pick a big un and pick a little quick one and stick up both up top. No matter who you have available.

36 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

whether PW is the right guy is a separate question. You’d think with his record he’d get us out of this division, especially if we fill some gaps in January. Whether he’ll be the right guy for the championship only time will tell. But DC’s focus right now is to get out of div 1

Answering this separately because its kinda a different point. Will Warne get us promoted eventually? I think there is a decent chance of it if we hold our nerve. There is a fair chance that after an initial bounce the next few months gets a bit rocky due to the transition in managers, transition in styles of play and as a more taxing style of play takes its toll on our squad (particularly the older players). Will Clowes blink if this happens and we are only 10th at Xmas? 

The question shouldn't be whether Warne will get us promoted, it should be whether he sets us up for long term sustainable success. We should be thinking now about how we get into the premiership, how do we stay there and how do we do it without needing to recklessly spend. Short term thinking is what got us into league 1 and the current mess financially. We need to be thinking beyond "get out of league 1 at all costs" or it will bite us.

To me the solution to it is something along the lines of focus on the academy, have an established style of play and culture that runs throughout the club and recruit both players and managers that fit that.

From listening to his interviews Warne does seem a very good fit for setting the right culture and a mindset in a club. But can he build towards a style of play throughout the club that we can build upon to a style that will leave us a prem team? And can he and his team coach a steady stream of academy players into being first team players? Those are both the big open questions to me.

21 minutes ago, kevinhectoring said:

Feel sorry forLiam but don’t feel he was hard done by. He’s inexperienced and he had to knock it out of the park to get the job. And it makes sense for the club to want to avoid having an interim in place for too long. (Must say I thought they’d give him longer tho)

whether PW is the right guy is a separate question. You’d think with his record he’d get us out of this division, especially if we fill some gaps in January. Whether he’ll be the right guy for the championship only time will tell. But DC’s focus right now is to get out of div 1

I agree that whether or not Warne is right is a separate question. But Rosenior has a right to feel hard done by in my opinion.

At the start of pre-season we barely had any playing staff, it was a short pre season, we could spend 0 money, we could offer limited wages and there were structural problems at the club to fix like barely any scouting staff. That's a difficult proposition no matter how you cut it and I think most would have said it would have been a great season at that point if we ended up in the playoffs. 

Yet he'd managed to scrap a competitive squad together, started to coach us into something cohesive and after 9 games we were in touching distance of the playoffs. Where there issues to be solved ? For sure. Did he make mistakes? Again for sure. But overall that to me was a good job that deserved more time especially given that you would expect things to pick up over time as cohesion in the squad grew.

I'm generally opposed to changing managers mid season unless it's overwhelmingly necessary, so in my opinion to change a manager who doing pretty well after such a short period of time is harsh.

1 hour ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

There's basically a bit of mardyness from some fans of Liam which is souring their views on the new gaffer.

Plus a few people just aren't comfortable with such a gregarious chap.

It will pass in time if we start achieving as a team especially in terms of scoring more goals and winning away from home for the first time in months.

If that's the case I feel like I'm in the weird camp who really wasn't sure about the move but the interviews have swayed me a fair bit.

With that said:

- Still feel like Rosenior was hard done by.

- Still feel like it sets an unrealistic expectation for the season.

- Still unconvinced that Warne will be the right fit tactically.

- Still getting the feeling it could be another Rowett type situation where there is a lot of effort to convince it won't be ugly on the pitch and then it is.

11 hours ago, ram59 said:

I wouldn't say that they were comfortably relegated both times.

in 2019 they were 4 points from safety and in 2021 they were only 2 points from safety, despite having to play up to 4 games per week due to covid postponements.

Yeah looks like that was an overstatement on my part. Thought off the top of my head they were further adrift than they were.

Watching through the interviews and the one thing that struck me is that he's likely a very good manager. Not as in the football sense but as in a general sense. He speaks like he understands how to motivate people, how to get them pulling together to a common goal and how to clearly communicate. All the while being able to manage those above him as well. Some of the stuff that might seem silly can be really helpful in keeping motivation high if he gets intial buy in. I've never seen a football manager seem as skilled at it from their interviews before.

I am pleased to hear him speaking a lot in terms of football is entertainment and the job is to entertain. It's rare to hear a manager to say this and its at least a sign that the intent is right. A

I do still have concerns over tactics as when he talks about it seems a touch simplistic. It seems to hinge largely on a combination of physical fitness and quality to win in each position individually rather than thought to how players can be used in tandem in order to create space or overloads. That might be unfair or it might be part of why despite doing well in League 1 rotherham have been comfortably relegated each time. As an extension whilst his loyalty to his previous staff is admirable I do wonder whether the coaching set up will be enough.

On 27/09/2022 at 00:08, Ghost of Clough said:

He's brought in his own GK coach. That's enough to say he's gone/going.

I assumed Buxton would be stepping back to the U21s, but haven't seen anything.

With the other coaches brought in, there doesn't appear to be space for Rosenior or Walker. Also, with Warne's fitness coaching background, I wonder where our Napoleon Dynamite fits in. I feel it would be in the club's interest to keep all three, but the first team coaching staff would feel blosted for L1 level.

 

100% agree. Whilst there are a couple of player who I think don't quite fit in the what may be his preferred style of play, we had a couple of players who didn't quite suit Rosenior's style anyway (although their resale value would be lower).

My main worry was Sibley drifting to the sidelines, but I can actually see him growing into the role we saw him in for the youth sides within a 352 - whether one of the 3 in midfield or playing off the main CF.

I'm certainly looking forward to the weekend to see how we'll shape up.

I think Sibley is one of a few players that it's difficult to make a call on.

At a glance if you think Warne will go with a 352 you might not see a place for him. However I think he likely has a lot of attributes Warne likes in a player in that he's mobile, aggressive, direct and a serious goal threat. The main thing that went against him under Rooney is that he'd give the ball away cheaply and I don't think that will matter as much to Warne and he'll almost certainly play him more or less centrally.

Warne could feel that with all of that and with playing a back 3/5 there is enough cover to play Sibley in midfield. He could also feel like it's better to pair him with one of McGoldrick or Collins and not play the two of them. He's also played a 3412 at times with Rotherham. All in all its hard to call. Personally I think he likely helps provide the best balanced side with 3 at the back.

If you start with assumption of wanting to get Hourihane in your team you've got a small dilemma. He's not got the legs he had and he's not really a pivot. So you either play him a little out of position or you try to compensate a bit for his legs. One way to help with that would be to play a defensive but mobile wing back in Roberts on the left and also play Sibley as a 10. Sibley is then the player looking to get in the box from a midfield position somewhat on the left, Hourihane is the person looking to cross whilst Roberts tucks in and supports.

10 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

"I want my team to have a real emotional intelligence. They do care about each other and they should care about me, I believe. As a manager they should want to do well for me.

I’ve told them about my family, my kids, what they mean to me. My father is not very well at the moment, bless him, he’s on the way out. Life is short and football careers are even shorter.

I always speak to them and will say, ‘before I speak to you about your performance today or your data, is everything alright at home?’ Because you don’t know what someone’s had at home, you don’t.

One of the lads was talking about their two-year-old kid and the lads said we didn’t even know he had a kid. I said ‘how can you not know your team-mate has a child?!’ It’s amazing.

That’s the way I like to look at it. I’m not saying it’s the right or wrong way, but success or not, it’s the way I want to run the club.”

 

Even if I have potential concerns about possible style of play; he seems like a good leader, seems like a good man manager and an alround good guy.

I doubt he will do a Pearson where he just stirs things up mostly because he can't handle egos.

8 minutes ago, Andicis said:

But going back to what you said in your first reply, you haven't watched Warne's sides in League One.

No and I'll hold my hands up to that. I'm talking about him from limited first hand knowledge, off hand accounts, what stats or scouting reports I can find and what Warne has personally said. 

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

Is it feasible, with League One standard players, to play possession football? I don't think so. They don't have enough quality on the ball.

Ehhh I disagree with this. I think there are enough examples to the contrary and I think the reason you don't see it as much culture of management in the lower leagues as it is about player quality.

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

Is it feasible, in a Championship side with a quarter of the budget of the top sides to set up to dominate? I don't think so.

It's possible. Not as easy as having a possession based side but its possible. But you generally need decent long term planning, excellent scouting or a strong academy. Obviously it would be tricky but again there are enough examples of teams coming out of league 1 and setting their stall out to get on the ball.

1 hour ago, Andicis said:

His management style reflects the position he was in. But he wasn't sitting back in League One and purely countering. His sides were very good and were often in control of games. 

This might be the case. It might not. I've just heard this argument so many times with so many different managers and it rarely holds up. It does ease my worries to hear he did actually set up to dominate the game in League 1. 

Just now, Andicis said:

From research I've done post appointment, it seems he sets up his teams to dominate significantly more when looking at League One level than in the Championship. Which does present the question whether it's related to personnel and how he believes it's best to get results with limited quality in his squads. 

I do think that his Championship style with a squad that was an underdog in every single game has helped people set opinions on him that may not be true when looking at how he has played on an equal footing in League One. 

This could very much be true but historically I find how a manager approaches setting up with limited resources is more or less how they will with better resources. 

Broadly speaking managers are on a spectrum from purist to pragmatic and they pretty much stay at that point because its based on how they think about the game. The former typically is about developing a footballing ethos and style at a club. You play a certain way, you recruit for that, how you set up is largely the same game in game out and you trust that over time you will win more in the long term. The latter is more about winning the next game without much longer considerations, its about first and foremost staying solid, you try to counter the opposition and readily adapt to them then score if you can usually through individual quality, set pieces or counter attacking. Generally the former option is more entertaining.

From what I can see Warne is more on the pragmatic side for better or worse but possibly not as much as somebody like Rowett.

On 23/09/2022 at 07:07, Ambitious said:

Bird will be heavily utilised if Barlaser is anything to go by at Rotherham. No one touches the ball or has a greater impact on the game for them than him, similar type of midfielder to Bird too. 

My suspicion is one of Bird or Hourihane will find themselves unfavoured. 

I don't think Hourihane has the legs anymore to do the aggresive pressing that I think Warne would ask of him in one the more advanced midfield of roles. But his ability at a dead ball, his shooting from long range, his ability to pick someone out in the box and his experience are all things might lead Warne to trying to get him in the team. In which case he probably shoe horns him in as the deepest midfielder.

Meanwhile Bird is better on the ball, has better vision, has better positioning, tactical awareness, is better defensively and his reading of the game is better.

Bird is better suited for that role on most accounts. It's just whether Warne feels we need to accommodate Hourihane. It's also possible Hourihane gets accommodated for by playing somebody like Roberts as the Lwb and/or Sibley as a 10 behind Collins or McGoldrick. Something like

              Wildsmith 

    Chester Davies Cashin 

                    Bird 

  NML  Knight  Hourihane Roberts

                   Sibley

                   Collins 

2 hours ago, Andicis said:

Genuine question to people who are criticising Paul Warne for his style of play, how many of Rotherham's league one fixtures did you watch? And how many Championship ones not involving Derby? I feel like it's become a bit of an easy one to throw out there without justifying yourself why you don't like his style of football. 

I'll hold my hand up and say I haven't and it's a fair challenge 

I'm going off what I can remember against us. And the bits and pieces you can find online. The picture you get is someone who's pragmatic, low risks at the back, sets up for the opposition, isn't interested in keeping the ball at all and encourages being direct on the ball (albeit not necessarily route 1) all of which is similar to someone like Rowett. The major difference from Rowett would be Warne seems to favour a very aggressive press off the ball.

So I think the key themes will be trying to win the ball back quickly,  getting the ball into the box quickly through whatever means and taking no risks on the ball at the back. It probably won't be the worst to watch as it will likely be very high energy but it won't be the best to watch either and will likely be fairly basic in how we attack.

3 minutes ago, Jourdan said:

This is all completely unfounded. For all we know, we could do really well and be in for a really positive season.

Let’s keep in mind, averaging 2 points a game (so 20 points every 10 games) would be enough to leave us very much in the mix for top 2 and also give us room for a few bumps in the road or teething problems.

It seems that people are doom-mongering based on nothing other than the new manager doesn’t fit their ideals.

If it was another manager with a different reputation, say for producing a favourable style of football, people would be saying how we are well placed to kick on and push for promotion.

The thing is, do you honestly expect that Warne will have the current squad looking like they are on for automatics by Xmas ? Because I don't see it and I wouldn't see it of nearly any manager. 

The sacking of Rosenior has laid down the marker of where the expectation level is at and its at automatic promotion. I just don't see how the decision is justifiable otherwise. And yet I don't personally think it's realistic. Never mind that it might be a bumpy transition based on styles, it being a squad Rosenior has assembled and the pressure of expectation.

4 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

Your talking about sacking a manager three months into a four year contract even though he’s not even took a training session yet for crying out loud.

No. 

What I'm saying is the expectation has been set by Clowes that we need to be on course for automatics or very much in touching distance. And I can't see Warne meeting that expectation, in a large part regardless of his ability.

Because when you take a step back and assess everything a realistic expectation of Rosenior was to be in the playoffs by the end of the season. One which we were largely on course for. But it was Rosenior's squad, his style of play and coaching (even going back to last season. We are now hiring a manager who's favoured a 352 when we don't have wing backs and who by most accounts is a massive stylistic shift. I just don't see him turning us into contenders for automatics by Xmas when it's common for a manager's position to be reassessed.

Hence why I think there is a realistic possibility he's not here come January, irrespective about how I feel about Warne or any of the decision making.

4 hours ago, Carnero said:

I think some of us are guilty of letting our like of Liam Rosenior the man cloud our assessment of Liam Rosenior the manager.

If we had appointed, say, Paul Lambert or Aidy Boothroyd or Darren Wassall or Justin Walker, as an interim manager to start the season and had exactly the same performances and results as what we've had this season, would we be saying that this is a harsh decision or would we be saying that it's fair enough given the appointment was only as made as an interim with no promises of getting the permanent gig?

Honestly? Yes. 

We've had a squad scraped together on a short time span after crashing into league 1. Whilst we've not had a flying start it's been a solid one and would have been a base to kick on from as players gel and further get used to be asked of them.

2 hours ago, Yani P said:

One thing about Warne he is an emotional character and builds very strong relationships with his players..so I guess we will expect to see the same togetherness and team spirit that has served us well in recent times.

I think this a question mark right now. By most accounts he seems a good man manager but on the flip side its hard to say how much disruption this will cause in the dressing room.

A lot of these players signed for Rosenior and they signed with a certain way of playing in mind. The pressure will also be ratcheted up, so it's not an easy job for him to walk into from a player management perspective.

In my opinion this is a move that only makes sense if we are absolutely gunning for automatics. And if that's the case Warne needs to have us in the top 2 or just outside by Xmas or else we need to reassess. Personally it's not the way I'd have gone about it but I don't see how it can be any other way. 

My prediction of what will happen is as follows:

- We have an initial patch of decent form. The football is mostly decent or at least decent enough that it appeases most people.

- This will be followed by a lull where things get progressively ugly as we turn to increasingly more "pragmatic tactics". 

- This doesn't really pan out and our results flatline at mediocre and we are just inside the playoffs at best and quite likely down around 10th. This depends on how long the good form is and how long the slump is.

- From there it's a fair chance Warne loses his job and we either roll on a new manager going into January trying to push again. Or we hire in house and sell of the players who would fetch a decent fee in January.

10 minutes ago, Rammy03 said:

'Found out at championship level.' He was Rotherham manager, look at what he was working with. A manager is only as good as his players. He got the best out of what he had at Rotherham and I expect him to do so here, doesn't necessarily mean we will be playing 'rowettball'

 

This is an open question and not necessarily to you specifically; but has a manager who's played solely pragmatic ugly football with one club ever shifted to not doing that ? 

Because I've seen this argument time and time again, specifically with a few recent Derby managers. Rowett sticks to mind and Pearson to an extent where people argue "oh they alter there style to the personal", "oh that's just because they had a limited budget", "oh with more resources they'd have a team playing better stuff" or some variation there off. And yet every single time it ends up pretty much the same, just a better version of ugly. And outside of Derby there are countless other examples. I honestly feel like it's largely a myth and that a manager will most likely show the same ethos regardless of resources.

21 hours ago, Ellafella said:

Yes indeed - that bit is just my opinion but quote me screen shot me etc in May. 

Fair enough, hope you are right. 

I worry though this is the monkey's paw curling and we are about to see some awful football.