Ghost of Clough

I'm certain he'll start, but most likely on the wing. It's hard to see Warne breaking up the Fornah, Smith, Bird midfield at the moment.

That's a nice positive outlook on the reasons for some people being grumpy/negative..

I'm certain he'll start, but most likely on the wing. It's hard to see Warne breaking up the Fornah, Smith, Bird midfield at the moment.

I just think a couple of convincing home wins will set everyone a bit more positive.
If we were in exactly the same position but our wins had been at pride park rather than away, i think the grumps would be less full on. The concerns about the team, style, perception that we're underperforming would all still be here but the mood would be less negative in general.
And, yes, it's been 15 years of mostly dissapointment, a lot of unispiring grind, then hopes raised and dashed coming out this season, but I think that'll work itself out.

Norwich are probably the best example to compare us with. They have a Cat 1 academy and have hovered around a league position where we have spent the majority of our history. They also have a strong history of giving academy players a route into their first team. Omobamidele, Godfrey, Lewis and the Murphy twins being recent examples of players they've brought through and sold for a decent amount. There's no reason why we couldn't do the same.

When I saw the thread title I thought we were discussing poster's attributes. I ran out of ink listing all those who are hard work.
 

You're definitely missing something.

Firstly, you need to compare our squad with the rest of the division. You continuously state our players are "average", yet in a different thread you also admit that the lack of quality in this league means we could still finish top 2.
Secondly, are you suggesting current ability of the players puts them at L1 ability or their historic ability? What relevance is 6 years ago to judging if a player is good enough now? Would a player who spent 4 seasons in the L1 top 6, 2 in the Championship followed by 1 in the PL a L1 journey man? He is based on the definition you've been using.
Thirdly, you've put a negative slant on most players, even those who are being targeted by PL clubs. A lack of pace doesn't mean a player isn't of quality above L1 level, and I'm struggling to think of many times when Cashin has actually been beaten for pace
Let's look at the squad in a more positive light...
Joe Wildsmith: 4th most clean sheets last season
Josh Vickers: Signed from a Championship club
Scott Loach: Effectively part of the coaching staff, providing emergency cover
Sonny Bradley: Just captained his last club to promotion to the PL
Eiran Cashin: Wanted by PL club(s), and wanted on loan by top end Championship clubs
Curtin Nelson: Spent 4 seasons playing regularly in the Championship before we signed him and was matchday captain for both of those clubs at various points.
Jake Rooney: An emerging talent and been steady in a L1 side battling for top 6.
Joe Ward: His last 3 seasons consist of: promotion to the Championship, a season in the Championship, and a top 6 finish
Kane Wilson: No player in L2 has more assists in 21/22, then excluded from Bristol's Championship squad because he didn't suit Pearson's defensive back 4
Nyambe: Conveniently missed off your list. Spent his entire career above L1 prior to joining us and has been a very solid defensive option since joining us.
Criag Forsyth: Spent 11 seasons in the Championship before following us down to L1 and has been a reliable player every game at this level.
Callum Elder: Played below Championship for only 1 seasons since 19/20, and he was a key part of that Hull side who won promotion.
Conor Hourihane: Hadn't played below Championship level since 15/16, including a full season in the PL, prior to joining us
Max Bird: Wanted by Championship clubs fighting for promotion.
Korey Smith: Hadn't played below Championship level since 14/15 prior to joining us
Liam Thompson: The majority of his games have been at Championship level.
Louie Sibley: The majority of his games have been at Championship level.
Tyrese Fornah: Was a regular in a Championship side prior to joining us.
Tom Barkhuizen: Hadn't played below Championship level since 16/17. Left Preston as they changed to a formation which doesn't use wingers
Mendez-Liang: One of the highest goal contribution records in the league last season
James Collins: 3 seasons in the Championship before joining us, recording 37 goal contributions. Currently averaging a goal every 138 minutes for us this season.
Martyn Waghorn: 1 goal contribution every 215 minutes during the 3 seasons in the Championship before rejoining us. Currently averaging a goal every 93 minutes.
Conor Washington: Signed from a Championship club where he was a regular
Tyreece John Jules: A goal or assist every 200 minutes at this level.

You really are clueless aren't you?
I've just proven that your 'majority of games at a certain level proves that's the level of current ability' is a load of rubbish, but you still insist on it being a thing.

Firstly, you need to compare our squad with the rest of the division. You continuously state our players are "average", yet in a different thread you also admit that the lack of quality in this league means we could still finish top 2.
Secondly, are you suggesting current ability of the players puts them at L1 ability or their historic ability? What relevance is 6 years ago to judging if a player is good enough now? Would a player who spent 4 seasons in the L1 top 6, 2 in the Championship followed by 1 in the PL a L1 journey man? He is based on the definition you've been using.
Thirdly, you've put a negative slant on most players, even those who are being targeted by PL clubs. A lack of pace doesn't mean a player isn't of quality above L1 level, and I'm struggling to think of many times when Cashin has actually been beaten for pace
Let's look at the squad in a more positive light...
Joe Wildsmith: 4th most clean sheets last season
Josh Vickers: Signed from a Championship club
Scott Loach: Effectively part of the coaching staff, providing emergency cover
Sonny Bradley: Just captained his last club to promotion to the PL
Eiran Cashin: Wanted by PL club(s), and wanted on loan by top end Championship clubs
Curtin Nelson: Spent 4 seasons playing regularly in the Championship before we signed him and was matchday captain for both of those clubs at various points.
Jake Rooney: An emerging talent and been steady in a L1 side battling for top 6.
Joe Ward: His last 3 seasons consist of: promotion to the Championship, a season in the Championship, and a top 6 finish
Kane Wilson: No player in L2 has more assists in 21/22, then excluded from Bristol's Championship squad because he didn't suit Pearson's defensive back 4
Nyambe: Conveniently missed off your list. Spent his entire career above L1 prior to joining us and has been a very solid defensive option since joining us.
Criag Forsyth: Spent 11 seasons in the Championship before following us down to L1 and has been a reliable player every game at this level.
Callum Elder: Played below Championship for only 1 seasons since 19/20, and he was a key part of that Hull side who won promotion.
Conor Hourihane: Hadn't played below Championship level since 15/16, including a full season in the PL, prior to joining us
Max Bird: Wanted by Championship clubs fighting for promotion.
Korey Smith: Hadn't played below Championship level since 14/15 prior to joining us
Liam Thompson: The majority of his games have been at Championship level.
Louie Sibley: The majority of his games have been at Championship level.
Tyrese Fornah: Was a regular in a Championship side prior to joining us.
Tom Barkhuizen: Hadn't played below Championship level since 16/17. Left Preston as they changed to a formation which doesn't use wingers
Mendez-Liang: One of the highest goal contribution records in the league last season
James Collins: 3 seasons in the Championship before joining us, recording 37 goal contributions. Currently averaging a goal every 138 minutes for us this season.
Martyn Waghorn: 1 goal contribution every 215 minutes during the 3 seasons in the Championship before rejoining us. Currently averaging a goal every 93 minutes.
Conor Washington: Signed from a Championship club where he was a regular
Tyreece John Jules: A goal or assist every 200 minutes at this level.

Firstly, you need to compare our squad with the rest of the division. You continuously state our players are "average", yet in a different thread you also admit that the lack of quality in this league means we could still finish top 2.
Secondly, are you suggesting current ability of the players puts them at L1 ability or their historic ability? What relevance is 6 years ago to judging if a player is good enough now? Would a player who spent 4 seasons in the L1 top 6, 2 in the Championship followed by 1 in the PL a L1 journey man? He is based on the definition you've been using.
Thirdly, you've put a negative slant on most players, even those who are being targeted by PL clubs. A lack of pace doesn't mean a player isn't of quality above L1 level, and I'm struggling to think of many times when Cashin has actually been beaten for pace
Let's look at the squad in a more positive light...
Joe Wildsmith: 4th most clean sheets last season
Josh Vickers: Signed from a Championship club
Scott Loach: Effectively part of the coaching staff, providing emergency cover
Sonny Bradley: Just captained his last club to promotion to the PL
Eiran Cashin: Wanted by PL club(s), and wanted on loan by top end Championship clubs
Curtin Nelson: Spent 4 seasons playing regularly in the Championship before we signed him and was matchday captain for both of those clubs at various points.
Jake Rooney: An emerging talent and been steady in a L1 side battling for top 6.
Joe Ward: His last 3 seasons consist of: promotion to the Championship, a season in the Championship, and a top 6 finish
Kane Wilson: No player in L2 has more assists in 21/22, then excluded from Bristol's Championship squad because he didn't suit Pearson's defensive back 4
Nyambe: Conveniently missed off your list. Spent his entire career above L1 prior to joining us and has been a very solid defensive option since joining us.
Criag Forsyth: Spent 11 seasons in the Championship before following us down to L1 and has been a reliable player every game at this level.
Callum Elder: Played below Championship for only 1 seasons since 19/20, and he was a key part of that Hull side who won promotion.
Conor Hourihane: Hadn't played below Championship level since 15/16, including a full season in the PL, prior to joining us
Max Bird: Wanted by Championship clubs fighting for promotion.
Korey Smith: Hadn't played below Championship level since 14/15 prior to joining us
Liam Thompson: The majority of his games have been at Championship level.
Louie Sibley: The majority of his games have been at Championship level.
Tyrese Fornah: Was a regular in a Championship side prior to joining us.
Tom Barkhuizen: Hadn't played below Championship level since 16/17. Left Preston as they changed to a formation which doesn't use wingers
Mendez-Liang: One of the highest goal contribution records in the league last season
James Collins: 3 seasons in the Championship before joining us, recording 37 goal contributions. Currently averaging a goal every 138 minutes for us this season.
Martyn Waghorn: 1 goal contribution every 215 minutes during the 3 seasons in the Championship before rejoining us. Currently averaging a goal every 93 minutes.
Conor Washington: Signed from a Championship club where he was a regular
Tyreece John Jules: A goal or assist every 200 minutes at this level.

The logic is that we would require a high turnover of players no matter which division we're in.
Failure to go up = some players are not good enough for Warne's system, whilst others are too good and will move on anyway
Promotion = L1 quality players aren't good enough for the Championship so need replacing.
Based on the evidence so far, I don't think recruitment in the summer was as good as our management team first thought. For example, you would hope someone on a 2+ year contract in a L1 side challenging for automatic promotion would be a starter in L1 and squad player (or better) in the Championship. However, Bradley, Elder, and Washington have so far failed to show they're better than their competition (Cashin, Forsyth and Waghorn)

Alan Shearer and Thierry Henry failed to score in the majority of their games. They scored some goals obviously, but the fact remains, they spent the larger part of their games not scoring goals.
Alan Ferguson failed to win the league the majority of the time.  He won it a few times of course, but the fact remains he spent the larger part of his managerial career not winning the league.
Do I need to go on?

They must be one of the 7 who expect less than the Playoffs

 

Wildsmith
Nyambe   Nelson   Cashin   Forsyth
Fornah
Sibley     Bird
Waghorn    Collins     Barkhuizen
 
Subs: Vickers, Bradley, Wilson, Smith, Hourihane, Washington, Mendez-Laing
If Ward is fit he could take Waggy's place right with Collins and Waghorn vying for the starting role. Or Ward might get a place on the bench instead of Wilson or Mendez-Laing if NML needs resting after his international endeavours.
If Sibbo doesn't start, and in a position that actually suits him, there is no justice. Gotta keep the shirt.
 

Maybe it's just me, but if a player plays a bunch of games at League One level, then steps up and plays a bunch of games at Championship level, then steps up and plays a bunch at Prem level, that makes the player a Prem player.  Not a player who's spent most of his career in the lower leagues 🤷‍♂️.

They must be one of the 7 who expect less than the Playoffs

 

You're definitely missing something.

Average compared with what? The rest of our league? If the players are better than most in the league, they're 'above average'.
You need to judge players on current ability. Not what they did 10 years ago or when they were 16

You logic, based on the club's financial resources (considering wages and transfer fees) are top 3, yet our squad player ability is "average". You're therefore saying Warne is a very good coach, since he gets more out of the players than their ability deserves, but the club's recruitment (which includes Warne) is abysmal.
 

You aren't using recent past. You're using phrases such as 'majority of career'. You use this phrase when referring to players who have barely played below the Championship in the 5 years before joining us. For example, Vickers, Bradley, Nelson, Nyambe, Elder, Wilson, Hourihane, Smith, Fornah, Barkhuzien, Collins, Waghorn and Washington all played in the Championship the season before joining us.
You could argue a number of players are aging and on the decline, but that's not what you said. You're including information from more than a decade ago for some of those players, which is certainly not 'recent'.
I'm not the only person to have asked, but you've consistently failed to explain what you mean by average. To most, it would suggest mid-table quality. This is contradictory to your other comment that we have a chance of promotion - suggesting at the very least, it's an above average squad.

Firstly, you need to compare our squad with the rest of the division. You continuously state our players are "average", yet in a different thread you also admit that the lack of quality in this league means we could still finish top 2.
Secondly, are you suggesting current ability of the players puts them at L1 ability or their historic ability? What relevance is 6 years ago to judging if a player is good enough now? Would a player who spent 4 seasons in the L1 top 6, 2 in the Championship followed by 1 in the PL a L1 journey man? He is based on the definition you've been using.
Thirdly, you've put a negative slant on most players, even those who are being targeted by PL clubs. A lack of pace doesn't mean a player isn't of quality above L1 level, and I'm struggling to think of many times when Cashin has actually been beaten for pace
Let's look at the squad in a more positive light...
Joe Wildsmith: 4th most clean sheets last season
Josh Vickers: Signed from a Championship club
Scott Loach: Effectively part of the coaching staff, providing emergency cover
Sonny Bradley: Just captained his last club to promotion to the PL
Eiran Cashin: Wanted by PL club(s), and wanted on loan by top end Championship clubs
Curtin Nelson: Spent 4 seasons playing regularly in the Championship before we signed him and was matchday captain for both of those clubs at various points.
Jake Rooney: An emerging talent and been steady in a L1 side battling for top 6.
Joe Ward: His last 3 seasons consist of: promotion to the Championship, a season in the Championship, and a top 6 finish
Kane Wilson: No player in L2 has more assists in 21/22, then excluded from Bristol's Championship squad because he didn't suit Pearson's defensive back 4
Nyambe: Conveniently missed off your list. Spent his entire career above L1 prior to joining us and has been a very solid defensive option since joining us.
Criag Forsyth: Spent 11 seasons in the Championship before following us down to L1 and has been a reliable player every game at this level.
Callum Elder: Played below Championship for only 1 seasons since 19/20, and he was a key part of that Hull side who won promotion.
Conor Hourihane: Hadn't played below Championship level since 15/16, including a full season in the PL, prior to joining us
Max Bird: Wanted by Championship clubs fighting for promotion.
Korey Smith: Hadn't played below Championship level since 14/15 prior to joining us
Liam Thompson: The majority of his games have been at Championship level.
Louie Sibley: The majority of his games have been at Championship level.
Tyrese Fornah: Was a regular in a Championship side prior to joining us.
Tom Barkhuizen: Hadn't played below Championship level since 16/17. Left Preston as they changed to a formation which doesn't use wingers
Mendez-Liang: One of the highest goal contribution records in the league last season
James Collins: 3 seasons in the Championship before joining us, recording 37 goal contributions. Currently averaging a goal every 138 minutes for us this season.
Martyn Waghorn: 1 goal contribution every 215 minutes during the 3 seasons in the Championship before rejoining us. Currently averaging a goal every 93 minutes.
Conor Washington: Signed from a Championship club where he was a regular
Tyreece John Jules: A goal or assist every 200 minutes at this level.

What sort of message does it send out if the players are called up to the matchday squad knowing Warne won't give them a go anyway?
Darren Robinson was named in a matchday squad for the first time under Warne in October last season, coming off the bench in the Pizza Cup against Mansfield. Since then, he has been named in 7 other squads and never used, including 2 games this season where were were 2-0 up (Lincoln and Carlisle)

At no point have I said we should have started a different 11. I have however said we should have brought the likes of Allen, Davidson and Brown on around the 70 minute mark to give us fresh energy. At this point, our midfield was getting overrun and we were getting nothing out of Collins.
Fornah and Collins were the main liabilities over that final 20 minutes. Allen would have added fresh legs to our midfield, whilst Brown wouldn't be a red card waiting to happen and may have actually known where his feet were in and around the box.
Warne has openly said he wanted to bring them on at 3-0. That's just ridiculous. He's basically saying a couple of young players will cost us a 2 goal lead with less than 20 minutes left on the clock. He didn't even trust them enough to bring 3 on with just 90 seconds of the game remaining, instead just bringing Brown on.

If we compare him with Brown, who is the same age (only 2 days between it), and just as highly rated within our academy...
Brown has only been given 18 minutes of first team football (17 minutes in the cup vs Blackpool and 1 minute last night)
Kellyman, was given the full 90 in Europe (and got 1 assist) whilst also getting 12 minutes off the bench against Everton in the cup. He was brought on when 2-0 down to help rescue something from the game. He was given 26 minutes in the Pizza Cup last season, and was trusted to play the full 90 in their first game this season