Stephen Pearce on Radio Derby 6pm Tuesday

[Leeds Ram]

Just now, G STAR RAM said:

Once again though, I'd re-iterate to go around accusing a business of being crooked without any evidence, is a very unprofessional thing for someone who is very highly regarded in their field to do. The fact that Independent experts who have had access to all of the information have basically shown that claim to be false should really tell you everything you need to know, and if you're incorrectly continuing to use that label against Stephen Pearce then it is obviously going to unfairly sway your opinion on him. Just my take on matters.

Even taking the MSD loan of £20m into account, it is highly plausible that this was covering costs all incurred post Covid, once again making Pearce's comment made in May 2020 truthful at the time it was told.

At what point MM stopped funding the club will never be known (In the last accounts signed off, MM had given written assurances that he would continue to support the clubs financing requirements up to June 2020 at the earliest.) but my guess would be post Covid) What Pearce could do about that I am not sure?

I'll use the word 'unique' policy in the future as that's what it was. As I've said in other posts I think the way the club was ran we now know was strategically poor, tens of millions were wasted and we alienated ourselves from the governing body. We were also the only club in the top 2 divisions to face such a crisis post covid. I'm not sure how us being in that position made us 'more prepared than most' for pre covid. To me, it simply does not add up. 

[Leeds Ram]

1 minute ago, G STAR RAM said:

Once again you are referring to an over inflated price of the stadium, something which experts in the field and an Independent Disciplinary Commission disagree with.

To form a view, should you not be using facts, rather than your own personal views?

Do you really think Pride Park is worth 80 million quid... At the time I'm pretty sure it was widely regarded this was a very high end valuation. Even if it was a correct valuation selling off assets is hardly a sign of confidence... 

Edited February 23 by Leeds Ram

[YorkshireRam]

2 hours ago, angieram said:

Aren't most football clubs at Championship level and above part of a "flawed unsustainable business structure", propped up by the largesse of their owners? Until they decide to pull the plug - and that's where the current problem in football lies. 

Does that mean every CEO is at fault for following the instructions of their owners? 

There's one person to blame for the mess at Derby County, and he is no longer owner! 

Given the amount of NDAs and secrecy attached to the whole debacle, how do you know this for sure?

By being CEO of the company led into administration, Pearce is complicit in what happened, that's indisputable. The level of complicity is what needs to be established to rebuild trust, but due to NDAs and seemingly sheer unwillingness to even try talk around the issue publicly, we can't even get a handle on his level of involvement. 

So you're left with a figure who fans associate with arguably the worst period of this club's history, still in a notable position of power- that leaves a sour taste. Meanwhile trust can't even be started being rebuilt because he can't or won't do anything to alleviate the inherently logical mistrust hanging over him... That's how I see it. 

Edited February 23 by YorkshireRam

[G STAR RAM]

10 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I'll use the word 'unique' policy in the future as that's what it was. As I've said in other posts I think the way the club was ran we now know was strategically poor, tens of millions were wasted and we alienated ourselves from the governing body. We were also the only club in the top 2 divisions to face such a crisis post covid. I'm not sure how us being in that position made us 'more prepared than most' for pre covid. To me, it simply does not add up. 

Can't disagree that we were poorly run, as is pretty much every club it the owners should fall on hard times or pull the plug. 

The other clubs in the Championship received funding from the EFL to help with cash flow problems post Covid, we didn't and were forced to take out loans at ridiculous interest rates. 

9 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

Do you really think Pride Park is worth 80 million quid... At the time I'm pretty sure it was widely regarded this was a very high end valuation. Even if it was a correct valuation selling off assets is hardly a sign of confidence... 

I don't know as I am not a commercial property valuer. But one of the most highly respected commercial property valuers believed that given its potential it was worth £80m.

From the findings of the IDC it was valued even higher than that but the EFL asked us to reduce the valuation, which we duly did only to then be charged with using the EFLs recommended valuation.

The sale of the ground, and the way that it was covered up and not disclosed to the fans, is the thing that irks me most, especially when there was a fans forum and neither Morris or Pearce thought it was worthy of mention.

[duncanjwitham]

8 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

Do you really think Pride Park is worth 80 million quid... At the time I'm pretty sure it was widely regarded this was a very high end valuation. Even if it was a correct valuation selling off assets is hardly a sign of confidence... 

It's not what it's "worth", it was valued on the basis of what it would cost to replace it with a new one, less the wear on it, which is an absolutely standard way to value assets like this.  When you consider Brentford have just spend ~£70m building a 17k stadium, and Brighton spent ~£90m on a 32k one pretty recently, those figures look more than reasonable.  Neither the EFL's independent commission, or the appeals into that decision, could find anything wrong with the valuation.

If you want a detailed explanation of exactly how and why it was valued at the figure it was, I suggest you read the report from the first tribunal hearing.  There's a very detailed breakdown of everything in there.  And consider that the EFLs inexperienced valuer, who basically valued it on the basis of it being equivalent to a 3-sides-terraced stadium, still thought it was worth £50m+.

[Leeds Ram]

4 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Can't disagree that we were poorly run, as is pretty much every club it the owners should fall on hard times or pull the plug. 

The other clubs in the Championship received funding from the EFL to help with cash flow problems post Covid, we didn't and were forced to take out loans at ridiculous interest rates. 

I don't know as I am not a commercial property valuer. But one of the most highly respected commercial property valuers believed that given its potential it was worth £80m.

From the findings of the IDC it was valued even higher than that but the EFL asked us to reduce the valuation, which we duly did only to then be charged with using the EFLs recommended valuation.

The sale of the ground, and the way that it was covered up and not disclosed to the fans, is the thing that irks me most, especially when there was a fans forum and neither Morris or Pearce thought it was worthy of mention.

I think on the first point that's a large part of my argument. I just don't buy that because many other clubs are poorly run it makes it acceptable that we are poorly run. 

On the value of the stadium like the amortisation issue I'm not an expert so I'll let others decide on that. But yes not disclosing this was clearly not a good idea whomever proposed keeping it secret. 

[Leeds Ram]

6 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

It's not what it's "worth", it was valued on the basis of what it would cost to replace it with a new one, less the wear on it, which is an absolutely standard way to value assets like this.  When you consider Brentford have just spend ~£70m building a 17k stadium, and Brighton spent ~£90m on a 32k one pretty recently, those figures look more than reasonable.  Neither the EFL's independent commission, or the appeals into that decision, could find anything wrong with the valuation.

If you want a detailed explanation of exactly how and why it was valued at the figure it was, I suggest you read the report from the first tribunal hearing.  There's a very detailed breakdown of everything in there.  And consider that the EFLs inexperienced valuer, who basically valued it on the basis of it being equivalent to a 3-sides-terraced stadium, still thought it was worth £50m+.

As I said, even if it was a correct valuation it should still have rung alarm bells that assets were being 'sold' in this way.

[Ghost of Clough]

2 hours ago, angieram said:

Aren't most football clubs at Championship level and above part of a "flawed unsustainable business structure", propped up by the largesse of their owners? Until they decide to pull the plug - and that's where the current problem in football lies. 

Does that mean every CEO is at fault for following the instructions of their owners? 

There's one person to blame for the mess at Derby County, and he is no longer owner! 

In the 21/22 PL season, Man City, Brighton, Burnley, Brentford, West Ham, Aston Villa and Liverpool were the only teams to make an accounting profit (£141m combined). However, in the two years previous, the same teams made a combined £509m loss, with only Burnely making a profit (£0.5m in 19/20).

West Brom are the only current Championship side to have made a profit in 21/22 - £5.4m (thanks to their £45m parachute payment). The 5 Championship clubs to have submitted their 22/23 accounts have all made a loss (£84.3m combined) - Norwich, QPR and Bristol City all losing in excess of £20m.

[Ghost of Clough]

31 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

Do you really think Pride Park is worth 80 million quid... At the time I'm pretty sure it was widely regarded this was a very high end valuation. Even if it was a correct valuation selling off assets is hardly a sign of confidence... 

Stoke sold their stadium for £70m without any critisism.

[RoyMac5]

10 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

As I said, even if it was a correct valuation it should still have rung alarm bells that assets were being 'sold' in this way.

And through all of this who do people think came up with the 'ideas' for dealing with the strictures of FFP? Whilst Mel might have spent the money I can't believe he came up with the accounting 'trickery'.

[Leeds Ram]

1 minute ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Stoke sold their stadium for £70m without any critisism.

Stoke is run by the Coates family in an astoundingly poor way. With massively bloated wage bills, managerial merry-go-round and finances they are completely reliant upon the owners to plug massive holes. I don't think many would look at how Stoke is run and say 'great job'. 

[Ghost of Clough]

1 minute ago, Leeds Ram said:

Stoke is run by the Coates family in an astoundingly poor way. With massively bloated wage bills, managerial merry-go-round and finances they are completely reliant upon the owners to plug massive holes. I don't think many would look at how Stoke is run and say 'great job'. 

Perhaps I should have highlighted this for you:

"Do you really think Pride Park is worth 80 million quid... At the time I'm pretty sure it was widely regarded this was a very high end valuation"

£80m was justified as fair value under independant review. Other sales (such as Stoke) were sold using the same method.

[Foreveram]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Stoke sold their stadium for £70m without any critisism.

I believe this valuation included everything within a 10 mile radius.☺️

[duncanjwitham]

5 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

I believe this valuation included everything within a 10 mile radius.☺️

Surely that would decrease the value?

[Leeds Ram]

6 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Perhaps I should have highlighted this for you:

"Do you really think Pride Park is worth 80 million quid... At the time I'm pretty sure it was widely regarded this was a very high end valuation"

£80m was justified as fair value under independant review. Other sales (such as Stoke) were sold using the same method.

I did say 'even if it was a fair valuation' towards the end of the post. I recognise I'm not an expert in these fields. 

[G STAR RAM]

9 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

And through all of this who do people think came up with the 'ideas' for dealing with the strictures of FFP? Whilst Mel might have spent the money I can't believe he came up with the accounting 'trickery'.

The ground sale had been done by numerous other clubs so that wasn't something new invented by us.

The amortisation method could have been suggested by the accountants/auditors?

[RoyMac5]

Just now, G STAR RAM said:

The ground sale had been done by numerous other clubs so that wasn't something new invented by us.

The amortisation method could have been suggested by the accountants/auditors?

Yeah not Mel.

[Ghost of Clough]

2 minutes ago, Leeds Ram said:

I did say 'even if it was a fair valuation' towards the end of the post. I recognise I'm not an expert in these fields. 

Selling the stadium was a mechanism to spend MORE under P&S rules, and isn't a sign of an owner unwilling to continue funding the club - as per all the other clubs to have done the same and not gone into administration.

[G STAR RAM]

11 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yeah not Mel.

Don't know, it was just a suggestion. 

I don't think many owners come up with their accounting policies, that is what they pay their professional advisers for.

 

[G STAR RAM]

9 minutes ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Selling the stadium was a mechanism to spend MORE under P&S rules, and isn't a sign of an owner unwilling to continue funding the club - as per all the other clubs to have done the same and not gone into administration.

My only argument against this is that I am very doubtful that any money changed hands with regards to the stadium sale.

I think instead it reduced the amount owed to MM via his inter-company loans.

So it was used to cover his previous financing of the club, rather than his financing going forward.

Just to be clear hear that is my own thoughts on what happened, not facts!