Palestine

[jono]

On 13/10/2023 at 15:46, Alpha said:

A terrorist attack. But the people of Palestine will pay for it. Israel will expand again. More illegal towns and villages. 

The way to respond to a terrorist attack is not to indiscriminately drop bombs on a population of suffering people. A population you starve of human rights. A population you treat as "human animals" 

But we know how this goes. Israel expand, Palestinians suffer with nowhere to go and no future. Israel gets another few billion in aid. Palestinians can't even turn a tap on without Netenyahu giving permission. West Bank sees another illegal settlement. Just another day. 

Hamas are terrorists. No doubt. They gained power in 2006 tragically can't be challenged. Not that anybody is interested in actually finding a solution for Palestinian people. 

It shouldn’t be about a solution for one side or the other. It should be about a solution end of story. The sides are so polarised and dug in to one set of right and wrong that progress seems impossible. 
 

I kind of have sympathy for the old British Empire and it’s drawing of random ill considered straight lines .. they had a plan (flawed to glory yes but at least it was a plan with some good practical intent at heart) .. When each side claims a Devine right to something regardless of anything then we have a huge issue. 
 

How on earth do we do it ? Each side needs space, water, fertile land and a port to the outside world. Is it so difficult to resolve given those parameters ? Yes .. because there are those on both sides that demand absolute primacy via some god given right or declamation. 

[uttoxram75]

Once again, everyone is divided by the people who rule the world. 

The middle east is and always has been, contested for its oil, gas and latterly, minerals for phones etc.

The USA and the western powers want control of the area, there's huge untapped reserves of natural gas that they want to take without sharing it with the palestinians. Its nowt to do with religion, anti-semitism, islamaphobia or anything other than pure greed and profit. 

Google "Ben Gurion canal", and "Levantine gas basin".

The world is well and truly fecked, run by the immoral controllers of the banking system.

Google "Genie" energy, see who owns it and why they want control of the Golan heights and Syria. 

Its all about money, always is and always will be.

[Highgate]

1 hour ago, jono said:

It shouldn’t be about a solution for one side or the other. It should be about a solution end of story. The sides are so polarised and dug in to one set of right and wrong that progress seems impossible. 
I kind of have sympathy for the old British Empire and it’s drawing of random ill considered straight lines .. they had a plan (flawed to glory yes but at least it was a plan with some good practical intent at heart) .. When each side claims a Devine right to something regardless of anything then we have a huge issue. 
How on earth do we do it ? Each side needs space, water, fertile land and a port to the outside world. Is it so difficult to resolve given those parameters ? Yes .. because there are those on both sides that demand absolute primacy via some god given right or declamation. 

I definitely don't.  If there was a list of people I don't have sympathy for, the avaricious, mendacious, self important Imperialists would be right near the top.  

Still trying to clean up their mess all over the world.  And failing in a lot of places, unfortunately.   

[jono]

8 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

Once again, everyone is divided by the people who rule the world. 

The middle east is and always has been, contested for its oil, gas and latterly, minerals for phones etc.

The USA and the western powers want control of the area, there's huge untapped reserves of natural gas that they want to take without sharing it with the palestinians. Its nowt to do with religion, anti-semitism, islamaphobia or anything other than pure greed and profit. 

Google "Ben Gurion canal", and "Levantine gas basin".

The world is well and truly fecked, run by the immoral controllers of the banking system.

Google "Genie" energy, see who owns it and why they want control of the Golan heights and Syria. 

Its all about money, always is and always will be.

And yet Saudi Arabia exists and can pursue its particular form of governance and control over oil supply ? One that most certainly doesn’t follow western norms and has successfully pulled the wests strings for 70 odd years ? But yes it is about basic resources which is why I mentioned space, water fertile land and a port. The west has always been prepared to pay but want the deal to favour then. The religionists are the same but more complex. Like Trump or other populists they harness the mob for their ends using divine right in place of base motives. The end result being the same, and a lot harder to shift or negotiate with. 

[jono]

7 hours ago, Highgate said:

I definitely don't.  If there was a list of people I don't have sympathy for, the avaricious, mendacious, self important Imperialists would be right near the top.  

Still trying to clean up their mess all over the world.  And failing in a lot of places, unfortunately.   

But it is a bit like democracy isn’t it ! Flawed .. but nothing better has come along. I think we are going to disagree on this one. India, Africa and so many others have had a very long time to sort out the “mess” but are repeating the mistakes of the empire under their own steam and doing a fine job with a different canvas. 

[Crewton]

13 hours ago, ramit said:

How about addressing the points made in that video instead of weakly attacking the messenger.  Gaza is the most heavily monitored area in the world.   Answer the questions put forth in the video and perhaps your points can be taken seriously, or you can just take your pot shot and then leave us to it, I suspect it will be the latter.

How to defeat the most technologically sophisticated surveillance system in the world - don't use technology. This isn't a proven theory, but it's plausible.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/07/secret-hamas-attack-orders-israel-gaza-7-october

[Mostyn6]

18 minutes ago, Crewton said:

How to defeat the most technologically sophisticated surveillance system in the world - don't use technology. This isn't a proven theory, but it's plausible.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/07/secret-hamas-attack-orders-israel-gaza-7-october

cannot recall ever reading a less balanced and biased article! 

[Crewton]

37 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

cannot recall ever reading a less balanced and biased article! 

Aren't you the guy who reckons the real death toll on October 7th was 140? 

Anyhow, here's another "biased" account, with video footage, from the NYT. Stick with David Icke if you prefer your conspiracy theories with anonymous sources and added lizard content.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2023/10/11/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-hamas-attack-timeline.html

[Ram-Alf]

15 hours ago, Alpha said:

White Supremacy month? 

"Birth of a Nation" 😁

Whether you agree or disagree with other posters...they have a right to an opinion, Bailing out just gives a poster the satisfaction of scoring the 1st goal.

Myself...I don't reply, They then get confused...did he read it? a Mills bomb explodes in their mind 😁

[cstand]

27 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

"Birth of a Nation" 😁

Whether you agree or disagree with other posters...they have a right to an opinion, Bailing out just gives a poster the satisfaction of scoring the 1st goal.

Myself...I don't reply, They then get confused...did he read it? a Mills bomb explodes in their mind 😁

No I did not read it because if my wife discovers I am spending too much  time on this forum I will have to arrange my own ceasefire. 😀

Edited November 7, 2023 by cstand

[Ram-Alf]

21 minutes ago, cstand said:

No I did not read it because if my wife discovers I am spending too much  time on this forum I will have to arrange my own ceasefire. 😀

Just tell her you're looking at porn, Then she'll have a sigh of relief knowing she can do some shopping for the next week or 2 😁

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Crewton said:

How to defeat the most technologically sophisticated surveillance system in the world - don't use technology. This isn't a proven theory, but it's plausible.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/07/secret-hamas-attack-orders-israel-gaza-7-october

This is why I don't go with the "adding context angle not excuses" angle. 

I'm biased. I'm not biased because I'm Muslim, Arab, antisemetic, anti Israel existence. I'm biased because Palestinian suffering is far greater than Israeli. 

There was a debate once  in Speakers Corner between an ex IDF soldier and Mohammed Hijab. 

He asked about the disproportionate force used etc and do you know what she said?

"That's because we have better weapons, technology and training. If Hamas had those things then Israel would be destroyed. If Israel didn't have the Iron Dome we'd all be dead"

 

.... She's 100% correct. Is she not? 

Give Israel knives and AK's and give Hamas tanks, jets and tech and what happens? Jews are not above terrorism. That's a fact. Nobody is. Guerilla, militant, terrorism Vs a powerful military.... How's it going to go? 

So my bias isn't in who's better people. Who deserves the land. It's the same reason a book or movie has the good guys suffering. Has a redemption arc. Makes an effort to have you empathise. 

My bias is because the Palestinians are the ones who suffer most. The casualties, the land, the human rights! 

But you trying add context by articles like this and from medialine is no different from me quoting Al-Jazeera or TRT. 

In fact I don't know how reliable some independent investigations into reliable news reporting but medialine is is very low rated for reliability on the first search that came up. The article was vague and made assumptions. Just as that Guardian nonsense. 

But then you want to cut the conversation dead and "leave you to your thread". 

Because I'm confusing context with excuses? What? Because I reject some of the stuff your posting as independent? Am I not allowed to do that? You can do it to the links I've posted from UN, Amnesty, Al Jazeera etc. 

The issue is, Israel have a history of influence over the narrative. And we've seen doctored evidence of that. 40 decapitated babies. Mass rape. We didn't have live ammunition. This video shows Hamas gunman killing Al Jazeera journalist. These are stories broadcast not just by Israel but all across mainstream media. To post things that say "well, it might have happened" is not adding context. It's supporting what, until this point, is not true. 

Like the Holocaust stuff. "Adding context". But it's not a context many many Jews are adding. It's not a context those who oppose Netenyahu are adding. Why are they not adding it. When their grandmother's and grandfather's were murdered? Why are they not searching for context? It's because it's not context. It's justification for what we are seeing. And they don't want to justify it. They are trying to move forward. Not fuel the paranoia and fear that will live with them forever. Nobody forgets the Jewish suffering. But when Palestinians are suffering at the hands of Israel, I'm sorry, but to constantly say we have to understand it is not entirely the big issue. Because Palestinians are Semite people. They don't threaten Israel based on their Jewishness?

[Alph]

50 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

"Birth of a Nation" 😁

Whether you agree or disagree with other posters...they have a right to an opinion, Bailing out just gives a poster the satisfaction of scoring the 1st goal.

Myself...I don't reply, They then get confused...did he read it? a Mills bomb explodes in their mind 😁

I just didn't want to talk about anti-Semitism or Islamophobia month. I didn't know Islamophobia month was a thing. I'm an atheist so I think, if I understand the Qur'an, that I'm going to hell? I think you have to believe in a God? Dunno. 

But these big kind of corporate awareness things... I don't pay attention. Black history month? If it helps then good. But I'm not offended by it and I'm not doing whatever I should be doing to support it. None of those things. 

During Islamophobia month I'll be not believing in God and hiding my browsing history from my missus. I'm a sinner. 

It was just to take it down the "do we like Muslims more than Jews?" path. It's not that I'm saying his opinion is right/wrong. I'm saying I don't want to argue with it? Palestinians are Semite. He needs a different thread for that route. 

[Crewton]

55 minutes ago, Alpha said:

This is why I don't go with the "adding context angle not excuses" angle. 

I'm biased. I'm not biased because I'm Muslim, Arab, antisemetic, anti Israel existence. I'm biased because Palestinian suffering is far greater than Israeli. 

There was a debate once  in Speakers Corner between an ex IDF soldier and Mohammed Hijab. 

He asked about the disproportionate force used etc and do you know what she said?

"That's because we have better weapons, technology and training. If Hamas had those things then Israel would be destroyed. If Israel didn't have the Iron Dome we'd all be dead"

 

.... She's 100% correct. Is she not? 

Give Israel knives and AK's and give Hamas tanks, jets and tech and what happens? Jews are not above terrorism. That's a fact. Nobody is. Guerilla, militant, terrorism Vs a powerful military.... How's it going to go? 

So my bias isn't in who's better people. Who deserves the land. It's the same reason a book or movie has the good guys suffering. Has a redemption arc. Makes an effort to have you empathise. 

My bias is because the Palestinians are the ones who suffer most. The casualties, the land, the human rights! 

But you trying add context by articles like this and from medialine is no different from me quoting Al-Jazeera or TRT. 

In fact I don't know how reliable some independent investigations into reliable news reporting but medialine is is very low rated for reliability on the first search that came up. The article was vague and made assumptions. Just as that Guardian nonsense. 

But then you want to cut the conversation dead and "leave you to your thread". 

Because I'm confusing context with excuses? What? Because I reject some of the stuff your posting as independent? Am I not allowed to do that? You can do it to the links I've posted from UN, Amnesty, Al Jazeera etc. 

The issue is, Israel have a history of influence over the narrative. And we've seen doctored evidence of that. 40 decapitated babies. Mass rape. We didn't have live ammunition. This video shows Hamas gunman killing Al Jazeera journalist. These are stories broadcast not just by Israel but all across mainstream media. To post things that say "well, it might have happened" is not adding context. It's supporting what, until this point, is not true. 

Like the Holocaust stuff. "Adding context". But it's not a context many many Jews are adding. It's not a context those who oppose Netenyahu are adding. Why are they not adding it. When their grandmother's and grandfather's were murdered? Why are they not searching for context? It's because it's not context. It's justification for what we are seeing. And they don't want to justify it. They are trying to move forward. Not fuel the paranoia and fear that will live with them forever. Nobody forgets the Jewish suffering. But when Palestinians are suffering at the hands of Israel, I'm sorry, but to constantly say we have to understand it is not entirely the big issue. Because Palestinians are Semite people. They don't threaten Israel based on their Jewishness?

It's not a conversation with you though, is it? Or a debate. Your beliefs and opinions on this conflict and its origins are set in stone - I doubt that anyone reading this thread would conclude otherwise - and I've got drying paint that needs watching.

[Ram-Alf]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

I just didn't want to talk about anti-Semitism or Islamophobia month. I didn't know Islamophobia month was a thing. I'm an atheist so I think, if I understand the Qur'an, that I'm going to hell? I think you have to believe in a God? Dunno. 

But these big kind of corporate awareness things... I don't pay attention. Black history month? If it helps then good. But I'm not offended by it and I'm not doing whatever I should be doing to support it. None of those things. 

During Islamophobia month I'll be not believing in God and hiding my browsing history from my missus. I'm a sinner. 

It was just to take it down the "do we like Muslims more than Jews?" path. It's not that I'm saying his opinion is right/wrong. I'm saying I don't want to argue with it? Palestinians are Semite. He needs a different thread for that route. 

My Son once called me selfish for voting Brexit, I told him that's rubbish...I just look after myself and feck the others 😊 

[Alph]

5 minutes ago, Crewton said:

It's not a conversation with you though, is it? Or a debate. Your beliefs and opinions on this conflict and its origins are set in stone - I doubt that anyone reading this thread would conclude otherwise - and I've got drying paint that needs watching.

My beliefs are what? 

That if Hamas surrendered tomorrow, if they laid down all weapons that  1)This wouldn't halt Israeli expansion in West Bank. 2) That another resistance would rise in their place because of the condition of Palestinian people

That if Israel respected international law, respected boundaries. Worked with Palestinians. Halted the settlements. Actually stopped and punished settler violence. If they gave Palestinians a reason to reject Hamas then we would find a route towards peace. When the need for a resistance would fade. And Israel being a powerful military nation has the ability to fight Hamas/defend themselves AND work with Palestinians (probably Fatah to create a state) 

It wouldn't be a smooth ride. But it would be the right road. 

That is my belief. Do you have problem with that? 

The final sentence is just unnecessarily rude. 🤣

 

[Alph]

2 minutes ago, The Last Post said:

My Son once called me selfish for voting Brexit, I told him that's rubbish...I just look after myself and feck the others 😊 

I'm not sure how to take that. 🤣

I don't know if I did something wrong? Should I be arguing against Islamophobia month? For anti-Semitism month? Did I say something wrong? 

[Ram-Alf]

4 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I'm not sure how to take that. 🤣

I don't know if I did something wrong? Should I be arguing against Islamophobia month? For anti-Semitism month? Did I say something wrong? 

Be yourself, Don't fret over others and do what you believe is right, The World can be a sh!tty place, But my I wouldn't want to be anywhere else 😁

[jono]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

My beliefs are what? 

That if Hamas surrendered tomorrow, if they laid down all weapons that  1)This wouldn't halt Israeli expansion in West Bank. 2) That another resistance would rise in their place because of the condition of Palestinian people

That if Israel respected international law, respected boundaries. Worked with Palestinians. Halted the settlements. Actually stopped and punished settler violence. If they gave Palestinians a reason to reject Hamas then we would find a route towards peace. When the need for a resistance would fade. And Israel being a powerful military nation has the ability to fight Hamas/defend themselves AND work with Palestinians (probably Fatah to create a state) 

It wouldn't be a smooth ride. But it would be the right road. 

That is my belief. Do you have problem with that? 

The final sentence is just unnecessarily rude. 🤣

 

I don’t agree with everything you say but you make good points. Also, to give you a salute you say “that is my belief” so very much better than saying “I am right”

I have huge sympathy for the Palestinians especially when Netinyahoo (spelling 🤪) is so bellicose and to me at least, not very likeable or statesmanlike. Yet on the other hand if you lived in a country surrounded by every neighbour who really would rather you didn’t exist it does provide some background to what makes Israel so fixed in maintaining or even expanding their position. And, like it or not, with or without American help, Isreal has built a functioning prosperous nation that pays more than lip service to democracy. They are a big animal permanently backed in to a corner. Hamas has no interest in coaxing them out it would rather poke them with a sharp stick at the expense of the Palestinian people. 

[Mostyn6]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

I'm not sure how to take that. 🤣

I don't know if I did something wrong? Should I be arguing against Islamophobia month? For anti-Semitism month? Did I say something wrong? 

your points are well made and you're clearly a humanist above all else! Don't worry that someone doesn't get you.