Palestine

[Alph]

[Alph]

Piers Morgan invited Bassem Youssef back. Probably because he absolutely destroyed Morgan and Ben Shapiro with their own logic and tens of millions of people enjoyed it. 

Piers doing a bit of back tracking as most Zionist supporters have done when brought into actual debate. 

It really gave Bassem a stage though to be fair and he was allowed to speak instead of argue. 

Allowed to address the back and forth hate rather than be forced to defend a position. 

It's not at all anti Semitic or even anti Israel. He's not a believer that Israel has no rights or future. 

It's just bang on the money. It's fair and it's the kind of talk that would have millions of ordinary Muslims and Jews finding an agreement in. 

100% worth anybodies time. 

Obviously for Morgan this is about ratings and rescuing some of his credibility to even deserve an opinion. But the outcome is still the same. The evil the pushes innocent people to hate each other but we all fall for it. 

"Comedians are the last truth tellers"

[Crewton]

Ceasefire? Good luck with that.

 

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1y31101m6

[TigerTedd]

23 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

basically, tell the world that there was a Hamas commander in amongst the innocent you slaughter. Simple. Nobody will ask for evidence.

I heard them say ‘hamas are putting the innocent people in danger by hiding in the refugee camp.’

hamas didn’t see those missiles. Someone on the Israeli side pushed a button. They didn’t have to.

they said it doesn’t break any international laws. I have to learn about the laws of armed conflict, and that’s very sketchy.

if someone takes a human shield of innocent people, you kind of just have to say ‘bravo, you win this round.’ And think of another way to get them. Not just say ‘f*** it I’ll blow them all up anyway.’

i recently went to the SS museum in Germany. And that is SS levels of retribution. You’re freedom fighters / terrorists  killed on of our guys, so we’ll slaughter your whole village.

who are the good guys here?!

[Mostyn6]

I don't believe for one minute that Israel have the intel to know where Hamas commanders are hiding when they didn't even know an attack was coming.

[Crewton]

There won't be peace in the Middle-East until the nihilist theocracy in Iran is removed and all of it's fellow "let's kill all the Jews" proxies in the region are defunded and destroyed. So, probably, never, but get rid of the threat and Israelis might even be willing to elect a government that doesn't match the lunacy of Netanyahu and his fundamentalist allies.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/02/we-heard-the-missile-come-tensions-rise-on-israels-northern-border

[Alph]

9 hours ago, Crewton said:

Ceasefire? Good luck with that.

 

https://www.ynetnews.com/article/r1y31101m6

Everyone knows what Hamas are and their ultimate objective of destroying Israel entirely. 

However, if the purpose of this article is to show why Israel must eliminate Hamas then I'd ask how does what they are doing eliminate Hamas? 

Another thing to remember is Israel are the occupiers. Hamas the resistance. Not meaning to say Hamas are the noble freedom fighters. Again, Iranian funded extremist who call for the eradication of ALL Israel. But Israel is the one who occupies land illegally and has Gaza under seige for decades. The fact Netenyahu can convince people that they are the victim because a militant group opposes their oppression is pretty shocking. Hamas might not be Robin Hood and his Merry Men. But Israel are not innocent defenders of democracy. 

A ceasefire won't happen not just because of Hamas. But because America and the EU haven't even called for one, never mind taken action. They've called for "humanitarian pauses". A chance for Palestinians to leave behind their dead and injured to ultimately serve Israel's objective. 

A ceasefire has never happened in the West Bank. 

There are now thousands of families that had very little and now have even less. A future in internment camps with even more poverty and less freedom. People that have lost their entire families. 

Many of these people will now choose Hamas. They'll die fighting for their land and future of their people. Better that than surrender to a life worse than they had before. 

Hamas need wiping out for peace. But that's not the only step to peace and even if it happened now then another resistance would form in their place. 

[Stive Pesley]

3 hours ago, Alpha said:

A ceasefire won't happen not just because of Hamas. But because America and the EU haven't even called for one, never mind taken action.

And the last mainstream UK politician who did try to negotiate peace  in the Middle East was smeared as an anti-semite terrorist sympathiser for even trying to have that dialog, so it's little wonder that no current politicians daren't go near the idea 😞

[Highgate]

4 hours ago, Crewton said:

There won't be peace in the Middle-East until the nihilist theocracy in Iran is removed and all of it's fellow "let's kill all the Jews" proxies in the region are defunded and destroyed. So, probably, never, but get rid of the threat and Israelis might even be willing to elect a government that doesn't match the lunacy of Netanyahu and his fundamentalist allies.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/02/we-heard-the-missile-come-tensions-rise-on-israels-northern-border

Not wishing to defend the dreadful Iranian regime for a moment, but when people or regime's call 'death to Israel' or to wipe 'Israel off the map', that's usually translated in the Israeli or Western media as a genocidal threat against the Jewish people in general. Whereas it seems to more plausible that what they really want to do is just destroy and remove the state of Israel and replace it with the state of Palestine, presumably where Jews could still exist like they had always done before. Indeed Khameni himself has said as much, 

“The disappearance of Israel does not mean the disappearance of the Jewish people, because we have nothing against [Jews]....wiping out Israel means that the Palestinian people, including Muslims, Christians and Jews, should be able to determine their fate and get rid of thugs such as [Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu,”

In other words they want to reverse the process of the 1930s and 1940s.  Not that this goal seems plausible anymore, not while the US exists anyway, but I don't think it sounds like a desire for genocide as such.

Unfortunately I do fear that there are elements within Hamas now, possibly somewhat inspired by ISIS in recent years, that have more genocidal motivations or at least want to expel Jewish people from a future Palestine, and set up a strict Islamic state there instead. Those sort of beliefs seem completely incompatible with any sort of lasting peace in the region. 

 

 

[TigerTedd]

One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. It’s all just a case of perspective, and the blurry lens of history.

History might paint a narrative one way or another, but in either case, no one who picks up a weapon can claim innocence. And they certainly can’t claim to be following any known religion.

 

[Mostyn6]

does anyone think that all Israel's approach will do is generate more hatred in the Palestinian people towards them, and feed into decades more "tit for tat" back and forth revenge?

[Alph]

37 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

does anyone think that all Israel's approach will do is generate more hatred in the Palestinian people towards them, and feed into decades more "tit for tat" back and forth revenge?

One step further...

Biden's speech in 1986. Before Hamas existed. "We would need to create an Israel if one didn't exist" 

Israel are recruiting for Hamas right now. And that's not a problem at all. It's great news and makes tomorrow's war so much easier. Israel is the American Imperialist key to the Middle East. That key needs a lock. Hamas are the lock. If there's no lock then you have to break down the door and then you look like burglars 

[Highgate]

56 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

does anyone think that all Israel's approach will do is generate more hatred in the Palestinian people towards them, and feed into decades more "tit for tat" back and forth revenge?

I'm sure lots of people think that.  It's seems like a depressing inevitability really. To defeat or reduce terrorism, history seems to suggest that removing or reducing the legitimate grievances that caused the terrorism in the first place seems to be the best course. 

It seems too late for anything like that now in Israel/Palestine, and there is no hope of it anyway with the likes of Netanyahu in charge. 

[Stive Pesley]

All we need now is for China to make their inevitable move on Taiwan. 😔

Anyone willing to bet against that happening? 

[Crewton]

56 minutes ago, Highgate said:

“The disappearance of Israel does not mean the disappearance of the Jewish people, because we have nothing against [Jews]....wiping out Israel means that the Palestinian people, including Muslims, Christians and Jews, should be able to determine their fate and get rid of thugs such as [Prime Minister Benjamin] Netanyahu,”

Are we to assume that Khameini also wants his own people to "be able to determine their fate and get rid of thugs"? I suspect not. It's reminiscent of Erdogan, just a few days ago, proclaiming that Hamas "were not terrorists" : I imagine the leadership of the PKK choked on their breakfasts at that one. Israelis at least have the choice whether  to get rid of Netanyahu or not - that looked on the cards until October 7th. I've seen the conspiracy theories about that, both the plausible and risible ones, but whatever caused the IDF to drop their guard, there's little doubt in my mind that Hamas took the opportunity/bait since no-one from their organisation has denied it was them. The earlier analogy with the SS was pretty offensive and extreme IMO but is often made by the same kind of people who excuse Putin for using similar tactics in Ukraine "because NATO provoked him". FWIW, I think Israel's response is counter-productive and. like the original Hamas attack, not likely to be easily forgotten or forgiven. (Incidentally, where were all those marching in London and elsewhere at the weekend when the Uighurs plight needed to be highlighted? How many didn't make it home from the "Free Tibet" marches that they didn't attend? Why is the Palestinians plight seen differently? Is it 'sexier'? Or is it more about who they're fighting?)

Ultimately, both the revised charter of Hamas and the words of Khameini, if enacted, would lead to collosal loss of life, mass displacement of Jews (again), and virtual serfdom under an Islamic Republic (as is still called for in Hamas' charter). All that is contrary to what is demanded by the UN and supported by most of the world's democracies at least - a genuine 2-State solution based on the 1967 borders - and so, theoretically at least, those calling for the destruction of the State of Israel are themselves "warmongers" and potential murderers. Yet they're not the focus of either criticism or entreaties.

Finally, I will say that, in some senses, I agree with those who point out that this conflict didn't start on October 7th : it didn't even start with the events of 1947/48; or with the Balfour declaration; it effectively started around 627 AD at Medina. If people don't understand why Israel is such a belligerent nation, or why Jews outside of Israel look upon it as their potential refuge, they really should read a little wider and perhaps more deeply than X, Tik-Tok and YouTube videos. 

 

[Alph]

1 hour ago, TigerTedd said:

One man’s terrorist is another man’s freedom fighter. It’s all just a case of perspective, and the blurry lens of history.

History might paint a narrative one way or another, but in either case, no one who picks up a weapon can claim innocence. And they certainly can’t claim to be following any known religion.

 

There's probably a long uncomfortable inappropriate conversation to be had about what terrorism is. 

The Suffragettes were responsible for bombing and Arson. Has there been many major changes or a coup against powers that be done without violence? I'm not sure there has.

@Stive Pesleyin another thread arguing about Just Stop Oil etc and was saying these ridiculous stunts that piss people off are the only way to make change. I remember arguing against him but I think I'm wrong. I mean to what lengths and where these protests should be I suppose is a debate. But I understand now what he means. Nobody listens to the sensible guy in the corner. It has to shock. It has to reach beyond the normal audience. 

Anyway, this isn't helpful and borders or even oversteps the mark of justifying Hamas attacks on innocent people. Which is equally as disgusting as the state terrorism we are seeing in Gaza. 

It's impossible to justify terrorism. But at the same time we brand it differently when it's in the history books and the outcome seems morally sound, no? 

I wonder sometimes if Hamas' official line was "Free state of Palestine" that would this group be seen differently? 

But again, behind Israel and Hamas are lot of very powerful people who prod them both to fight. People who live safely in USA, Britain, Iran, Russia, Saudi Arabia etc etc 

[Alph]

49 minutes ago, Crewton said:

Are we to assume that Khameini also wants his own people to "be able to determine their fate and get rid of thugs"? I suspect not. It's reminiscent of Erdogan, just a few days ago, proclaiming that Hamas "were not terrorists" : I imagine the leadership of the PKK choked on their breakfasts at that one. Israelis at least have the choice whether  to get rid of Netanyahu or not - that looked on the cards until October 7th. I've seen the conspiracy theories about that, both the plausible and risible ones, but whatever caused the IDF to drop their guard, there's little doubt in my mind that Hamas took the opportunity/bait since no-one from their organisation has denied it was them. The earlier analogy with the SS was pretty offensive and extreme IMO but is often made by the same kind of people who excuse Putin for using similar tactics in Ukraine "because NATO provoked him". FWIW, I think Israel's response is counter-productive and. like the original Hamas attack, not likely to be easily forgotten or forgiven. (Incidentally, where were all those marching in London and elsewhere at the weekend when the Uighurs plight needed to be highlighted? How many didn't make it home from the "Free Tibet" marches that they didn't attend? Why is the Palestinians plight seen differently? Is it 'sexier'? Or is it more about who they're fighting?)

Ultimately, both the revised charter of Hamas and the words of Khameini, if enacted, would lead to collosal loss of life, mass displacement of Jews (again), and virtual serfdom under an Islamic Republic (as is still called for in Hamas' charter). All that is contrary to what is demanded by the UN and supported by most of the world's democracies at least - a genuine 2-State solution based on the 1967 borders - and so, theoretically at least, those calling for the destruction of the State of Israel are themselves "warmongers" and potential murderers. Yet they're not the focus of either criticism or entreaties.

Finally, I will say that, in some senses, I agree with those who point out that this conflict didn't start on October 7th : it didn't even start with the events of 1947/48; or with the Balfour declaration; it effectively started around 627 AD at Medina. If people don't understand why Israel is such a belligerent nation, or why Jews outside of Israel look upon it as their potential refuge, they really should read a little wider and perhaps more deeply than X, Tik-Tok and YouTube videos. 

 

In there we're saying people that don't care about X issue have no moral right to care about Y issue? 

That's like what Rachel Riley said? "Nobody cared about these Muslims dying so why care now?" .... Ok Rachel. You're right. We didn't care then so feck em. Same with Cancer. If you didn't care before Auntie Julie got breast cancer then feck off with your sponsored runs. 

Different causes effect different people. 

The last paragraph is again what often begins of the descent into anti-Semitism claims. It's nonsense. Nobody in this thread has denied Israel. Only the "Holocaust shield" against Apartheid and ethnic cleansing. 

You like to dismiss people's opinions because they get their information from TikTok.... Come on. Please. It would be insulting if it wasn't funny 🤣. Nobody here has used the UN, Amnesty, Save The Children and International Law to back up an opinion. 

It's all just trendy hipsters following a trend. @GboroRam, how long ago was it that we had a bit of back and forth over my Palestine flag that I had for a long time? (Thanks to you mods and David for allowing this thread by the way). 

The thing here is that the mainstream media picked it up. Not people. Many many many of these voices you hear now could be heard years ago. If you didn't hear them then maybe it's you who were caught in the trend?

I support a 2 state solution. You said

"All that is contrary to what is demanded by the UN and supported by most of the world's democracies at least - a genuine 2-State solution based on the 1967 borders - and so, theoretically at least, those calling for the destruction of the State of Israel are themselves "warmongers" and potential murderers. Yet they're not the focus of either criticism"

Erm... They are. But Israel are the military power here. Israel are the ones occupying Palestinian land. You can't talk about a 2 state solution or expect no resistance when you're invading a land and holding Gaza hostage. The first step to peace is at least the nation of Israel obeying international law and not encouraging these outrageous crimes in West Bank. 

anti-Semitism and time traveling back a few thousand years is always a laughable argument. We need to take in events before October 7th. We don't need to go back to the 7th cenWe really don't. We don't need to have Jews backed into the sea for peace anymore than we need Gaza bombed to oblivion. 

I understand the Jewish history. The suffering. It's just not an excuse. Neither is Putin's national security concerns an excuse for invading Ukraine. Which literally nobody here said. They just denied the fact he made everything up because he's a pure evil villain and America is totally innocent of all his accusations

[GboroRam]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

It's all just trendy hipsters following a trend. @GboroRam, how long ago was it that we had a bit of back and forth over my Palestine flag that I had for a long time? (Thanks to you mods and David for allowing this thread by the way). 

 

That was two years ago, apparently. 

[Alph]

44 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

That was two years ago, apparently. 

Ah, well no hard feelings I hope. 

[Crewton]

2 hours ago, Alpha said:

I understand the Jewish history.

I'm not convinced that you do - and you seem to be confusing "explanation" and "context" with "excuse" and seem to be taking too much of what I've posted personally (it wasn't meant to be) - so I'll leave you to your thread now and hope that this lamentable and unnecessary bloodbath ends far sooner than my most optimistic expectation.