Alph Posted October 22, 2023 Author Share Posted October 22, 2023 9 hours ago, Carl Sagan said: Just leaving this here. Oh is that what Israel have been doing? Standing up to terrorists? Oh right. Okay. How are Hamas doing governing West Bank? Thank God Israel are saving us all from terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 7 hours ago, ramit said: It goes both ways Police are told to keep the peace, scenes such as these show how volatile the situation is considered by authorities Over here Ramit out police are as confused as the public, I believe there is a Palestine Ambassador in the UK, How can the police ban their flag...I'll give you a clue...1, It's our Home secretary Suella Braverman with her Rhetoric over this War, 2 our police force are to frightened to be seen at taking sides...so arrest or disperse the people involved...failing that arrest a boy that has a water pistol 😉 ramit 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) 10 hours ago, Alpha said: How, how, how the hell does a country that's illegally occupying land and bombing one of the most densely populated civilian populations in the world after blockading them.... how does this nation manage to make themselves victims. It's insane. Absolutely insane. There seems to be no introspection, no self criticism, no ability to see the stage from a neutral perspective, no empathy for any groups other than their own, no admittance of ever doing wrong, everything is someone else's fault, that general rules of behavior only applied to others, etc and if anyone dared point out these deficiencies to them it would only mean that they hate them and thus speaking criticism of them should be banned, if not criminalized. If this was a description of an individual, there would be an obvious clinical psychoanalysis Edited October 22, 2023 by ramit Form Alph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 A pound of flesh 🙄 https://news.sky.com/story/guardian-cartoonist-steve-bell-sacked-after-benjamin-netanyahu-sketch-12985696?dicbo=v2-2vXuczR Comrade 86 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 (edited) 7 hours ago, ramit said: There seems to be no introspection, no self criticism, no ability to see the stage from a neutral perspective, no empathy for any groups other than their own, no admittance of ever doing wrong, everything is someone else's fault, that general rules of behavior only applied to others, etc and if anyone dared point out these deficiencies to them it would only mean that they hate them and thus speaking criticism of them should be banned, if not criminalized. If this was a description of an individual, there would be an obvious clinical psychoanalysis I'm trying very hard to see things from a neutral perspective - the entire area has been a hornet's nest since before I was born - a long time before that in fact - from the dissolution of the Ottoman Empire at the end of the First World War. I don't think there is a solution in the true sense of the word that hasn't already been tried. Edited October 22, 2023 by Eddie Archied, Ram-Alf, Malagaram and 1 other 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 BBC News Some of the images which have emerged from the hospital on Sunday are too graphic to share. Children - including at least two babies - are among the dead. Officials from the Hamas-controlled health ministry say more than 100 people were killed as Israel carried out air strikes overnight. In response the Israeli military told the BBC that it had targeted nearby areas "based on intelligence information confirming the presence of a Hamas leader in the area adjacent to the hospital, who gave orders to fire towards Israel from that area". On Sunday morning a stream of vehicles was seen carrying wounded people to the hospital. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67186181 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carl Sagan Posted October 22, 2023 Share Posted October 22, 2023 10 hours ago, Alpha said: Oh is that what Israel have been doing? Standing up to terrorists? Oh right. Okay. How are Hamas doing governing West Bank? Thank God Israel are saving us all from terrorism. I don't understand your West Bank remark. Meanwhile, Hamas went into Israel and slaughtered 1400 people in cold blood, Babies beheaded. Many people with their hands tied, then burnt alive. Plenty just mown down with gunfire. Deliberate, merciless, gruesome acts beyond anything ever seen in my lifetime. Also kidnapping 200 children and elderly to then use and abuse as human shields. Israel has demonstrated it can no longer protect its citizens, meaning Hamas can and will come and do the same again next month, or next year. Perhaps even worse. Not only does Israel have to try to rescue its hostages, it has decided in a way its difficult to argue, that the only way to keep its citizens safe is to wipe out Hamas. Before the stated Hamas aim of wiping out Israel. You can't negotiate with an enemy who simply wants you dead. Israel is fighting for the right to exist. None of this would have happened without the Hamas attack, effectively a declaration of war, and clearly Hamas would have expected Israeli retribution in this way, perhaps even worse. It's what Hamas wanted to trigger. It's horrific to see the many decent Palestinians who are horribly caught in the middle, and there should be avenues out. It's notable that most of the Arab governments don't want to take anyone because they're concerned they're bringing Hamas terrorists into their countries. And, yes, in jest you are right as to an extent what Israel believes it is doing is trying to save itself and the world from terrorism. Yet this war will be a disaster for all concerned, including Israel and its army, with Hamas dug in, lying in wait. Many, many, many thousands more will die and it's horrific and I mourn every one. But none of this should mean people can't be shown pictures of kidnapped, terrified children who are hostages of brutal murderers. For fear of antagonizing a mob. Shame on the police and the mob. Malagaram, Norman and cstand 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 2 hours ago, Carl Sagan said: Israel has demonstrated it can no longer protect its citizens, meaning Hamas can and will come and do the same again next month, or next year. Perhaps even worse. That doesn't seem like a reasonable conclusion to draw. All that has been demonstrated is that Israel didn't protect it's citizens this time. It seems they may have become overconfident in their overwhelming military superiority and let their guard down. They were simply under prepared for this barbaric attack, possibly partially due to a government distracted by political upheaval and, of course, huge intelligence failure. The border with Gaza is 50kms in total and Israel can turn that into a fortress if they so wanted to. Even more so than it has been before. I can't see Israel being as easy to attack from Gaza ever again. The notion that Israel can simply wipe out Hamas is just bonkers, I don't know how else to describe it. Imagine the enormous loss of civilian life that would entail. If Israel kills that many Palestinians, then they would probably turn around and find out that half the West Bank would all of a sudden be Hamas supporters too. You don't wipe out an embedded terrorist group like that.....it just doesn't happen. I don't know the solutions for Israel or for Palestine, but I know trying to bomb Hamas out of existence in one of the most densely populated areas in the world is not the answer. Alph 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 9 hours ago, Carl Sagan said: I don't understand your West Bank remark. Meanwhile, Hamas went into Israel and slaughtered 1400 people in cold blood, Babies beheaded. Many people with their hands tied, then burnt alive. Plenty just mown down with gunfire. Deliberate, merciless, gruesome acts beyond anything ever seen in my lifetime. Also kidnapping 200 children and elderly to then use and abuse as human shields. Israel has demonstrated it can no longer protect its citizens, meaning Hamas can and will come and do the same again next month, or next year. Perhaps even worse. Not only does Israel have to try to rescue its hostages, it has decided in a way its difficult to argue, that the only way to keep its citizens safe is to wipe out Hamas. Before the stated Hamas aim of wiping out Israel. You can't negotiate with an enemy who simply wants you dead. Israel is fighting for the right to exist. None of this would have happened without the Hamas attack, effectively a declaration of war, and clearly Hamas would have expected Israeli retribution in this way, perhaps even worse. It's what Hamas wanted to trigger. It's horrific to see the many decent Palestinians who are horribly caught in the middle, and there should be avenues out. It's notable that most of the Arab governments don't want to take anyone because they're concerned they're bringing Hamas terrorists into their countries. And, yes, in jest you are right as to an extent what Israel believes it is doing is trying to save itself and the world from terrorism. Yet this war will be a disaster for all concerned, including Israel and its army, with Hamas dug in, lying in wait. Many, many, many thousands more will die and it's horrific and I mourn every one. But none of this should mean people can't be shown pictures of kidnapped, terrified children who are hostages of brutal murderers. For fear of antagonizing a mob. Shame on the police and the mob. Go back through the thread. All answered. 18 pages of why this didn't all start this month. Why it's disproportionate and why Israel is the aggressor and occupier Hamas don't control West Bank. But Palestinians die there to IDF forces all the time as they expand. Honestly, it's all in the thread Comrade 86 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 https://www.amnesty.org/en/location/middle-east-and-north-africa/israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/report-israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/ Operation Summer Rains (June 2006) Operation Autumn Clouds (October-November 2006) Operation Hot Winter (February-March 2008) Operation Cast Lead (December 2008-January 2009) Operation Running Echo (March 2012) Operation Pillar of Cloud (November 2012) Operation Protective Edge (July-August 2014) Operation Black Belt (November 2019) Operation Breaking Dawn (August 2022) Operation Shield and Arrow (May 2023) ..... How many festivals do Israel have in unprotected territory? What's the source for these beheaded babies? Comrade 86 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 Anybody familiar with Norman Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe? If you want to accept that this conflict goes back further than Hamas attack on 7th October then it's worth hearing them out. Finklestein is an American Jew who's mother and father are survivors of the Holocaust. Ilan Pappe is an Israeli Jew that was a supporter of Israeli policies. We can underline all this with "But Hamas are terrorists and killed innocent Israelis". That's what Piers Morgan wants. But if you want to consider a possibility that the US supports terrorist groups (rebranded rebels) and that Hamas are the only real force standing against Apartheid then I think it's worth just popping their names in YouTube or Google. Mostyn6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 13 hours ago, Highgate said: don't know the solutions for Israel or for Palestine, but I know trying to bomb Hamas out of existence in one of the most densely populated areas in the world is not the answer. And most importantly Israel and The West know it. Be we have to pretend we're all stupid or it's like a crime of passion. And of course that the West Bank doesn't exist or it's very peaceful and Israeli aggression on exists on one front. We can't possibly be the baddies? Nope. There must be a mistake. There's has to be. All the movies say we're the good guys? Democracy and freedom! Fight against tyranny injustice!! Somebody get Genocide Joe out here to tell me it's those bloody barbarians at the gates and we aren't supporting murder! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Alpha said: My point was really that the picture shows the reality of their supposed attempts to mitigate civilian harm. That is to say that no attempt at all is being made to safeguard civilians. Alph and GboroRam 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted October 23, 2023 Author Share Posted October 23, 2023 1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said: My point was really that the picture shows the reality of their supposed attempts to mitigate civilian harm. That is to say that no attempt at all is being made to safeguard civilians. Yeah I was backing up your point. But I think whatever laws they break will just get brushed aside anyway. Comrade 86 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Brolly Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67198270 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramit Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 Comrade 86 and Alph 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 12 hours ago, Alpha said: Anybody familiar with Norman Finkelstein and Ilan Pappe? If you want to accept that this conflict goes back further than Hamas attack on 7th October then it's worth hearing them out. Finklestein is an American Jew who's mother and father are survivors of the Holocaust. Ilan Pappe is an Israeli Jew that was a supporter of Israeli policies. We can underline all this with "But Hamas are terrorists and killed innocent Israelis". That's what Piers Morgan wants. But if you want to consider a possibility that the US supports terrorist groups (rebranded rebels) and that Hamas are the only real force standing against Apartheid then I think it's worth just popping their names in YouTube or Google. Finkelstein is a bit of a troll and not really respected in this area. Ilan Pappe is an interesting one. Done some good historical work but is frequently critiqued by new historians who argue he's way overplayed his historical hand. Hamas are one of the larger impediments to peace in reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leeds Ram Posted October 23, 2023 Share Posted October 23, 2023 https://wisdomofcrowds.live/p/peter-beinart-on-israel-hamas-and#details A good podcast by some writers and an academic who exist on different sides of the aisle on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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