Palestine

[Alph]

Why are parts of the media so obsessed with what other parts label Hamas. 

Hamas are (maybe it's changed, I've not checked) only designated a terrorist organisation by a Western Alliance of UK, USA and maybe Australia and a couple more? I should have checked)

The media should perhaps ask why Hamas aren't labeled terrorists by governments rather than the BBC. Why are they not? Unless you like car bombs and beheadings then there must be a massive reason for it? 

Why are they so concerned fighting about s*** that really doesn't matter. Because Hamas will continue to exist. They're the most able to flee. Ok so their bases will be destroyed and they'll lose weaponry. But won't be eliminated. 

It stinks of trying to control the narrative. We need to think of Hamas as terrorist otherwise we may begin to think of them on a level playing field. 

(They're Iranian funded terrorists by the way. But it's actually not that important what they're called. Hamas, Hezbollah etc exist. What's important is why they exist and how to eliminate them. Force isn't always the answer. Ask Afghanistan.) 

[Day]

13 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

When has NATO ever attacked Russia? When has it ever committed atrocities such as those by Hamas? I don’t think any suggestion that Russia is acting in self defence has any credibility. 

There is no justification for the way Russia has responded to the expansion of NATO, none whatsoever, I think that was the point.

Whilst you're correct NATO have never attacked Russia, Russia will claim it's necessary for their own defence, what should they have done, nothing? Sat back and watched their "enemies" surround them and setup military bases on their doorsteps?

Would that not be a sign of weakness?

Same argument being used for Israel bombing Gaza now, what were they to do, nothing?

Both Russia and Israel's actions with zero care for the loss of lives to innocent civilians, is just, words fail me at this point. 

[PistoldPete]

10 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Why are parts of the media so obsessed with what other parts label Hamas. 

Hamas are (maybe it's changed, I've not checked) only designated a terrorist organisation by a Western Alliance of UK, USA and maybe Australia and a couple more? I should have checked)

The media should perhaps ask why Hamas aren't labeled terrorists by governments rather than the BBC. Why are they not? Unless you like car bombs and beheadings then there must be a massive reason for it? 

Why are they so concerned fighting about s*** that really doesn't matter. Because Hamas will continue to exist. They're the most able to flee. Ok so their bases will be destroyed and they'll lose weaponry. But won't be eliminated. 

It stinks of trying to control the narrative. We need to think of Hamas as terrorist otherwise we may begin to think of them on a level playing field. 

(They're Iranian funded terrorists by the way. But it's actually not that important what they're called. Hamas, Hezbollah etc exist. What's important is why they exist and how to eliminate them. Force isn't always the answer. Ask Afghanistan.) 

Well Egypt recognises Hamas as terrorists for a start. And the European Union so more than a couple of Western countries I think. 

[PistoldPete]

1 minute ago, David said:

There is no justification for the way Russia has responded to the expansion of NATO, none whatsoever, I think that was the point.

Whilst you're correct NATO have never attacked Russia, Russia will claim it's necessary for their own defence, what should they have done, nothing? Sat back and watched their "enemies" surround them and setup military bases on their doorsteps?

Would that not be a sign of weakness?

Same argument being used for Israel bombing Gaza now, what were they to do, nothing?

Both Russia and Israel's actions with zero care for the loss of lives to innocent civilians, is just, words fail me at this point. 

There is absolutely zero valid comparison between actions of Israel and Russia. 

[Alph]

15 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

When has NATO ever attacked Russia? When has it ever committed atrocities such as those by Hamas? I don’t think any suggestion that Russia is acting in self defence has any credibility. 
 

No, they didn't want Ukraine to become an ally of America for good reason but far to irrelevant and boring to go into. But it's worth a Google. 

The attacking was more by the likes of Azov Brigade. Torture, rape, murders, bombings... You know the drill. 

Again I'm not defending Putin's response as I'm obviously not defending Israel's. 

He felt though, with just cause if you look into it, that treaties were broken, threats to Russia's influence and position as an international power were in play. By an alliance formed up by the USA. 

You can even say, well good. A world under Biden would be better than a world under Putin or whatever. That's fine. But obviously Putin would disagree. As President of Russia he did what he felt he had to do to protect Russia and secure its future as a superpower.

The terrorism in East Ukraine provided a great excuse 

Which is where I think it's interesting to see how people view Russia and Israel. They're not like for like situations. But have many similarities. 

Surrounded by enemies. Small scale skirmishes. Terrorist attacks. War crimes. Interference by the larger power. American pressure. Disproportionate retaliation based on convenient truths?

[Day]

2 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

There is absolutely zero valid comparison between actions of Israel and Russia. 

Obviously I would disagree given you have quoted my post.

The thing is, I'm struggling to understand how you can sit here and say bombing Gaza is fair game for the festival attack, yet think Russia should have just sat and chuckled politely as NATO surrounded them.

Self defence is protecting yourself. Both will claim their actions are justified to defend themselves.

[Alph]

5 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Well Egypt recognises Hamas as terrorists for a start. And the European Union so more than a couple of Western countries I think. 

And me. But you've missed my point. 

Egypt is interesting in that it's government often pursues peace with Israel. Just seems sensible to me. It's also sympathetic towards Palestine. But the popular opinion of Egyptian people isn't one that favours Israel. 

But like I said, that wasn't my point. We can continue discussing why Hamas are labeled terrorists here and not there. But it's still irrelevant to the entire point I was making. 

I call Hamas terrorists. Israel carry out state terrorism too in my opinion. But label it whatever. Hamas are not in West Bank. So what are Israel pursuing there? Illegally 

[PistoldPete]

Just now, David said:

Obviously I would disagree given you have quoted my post.

The thing is, I'm struggling to understand how you can sit here and say bombing Gaza is fair game for the festival attack, yet think Russia should have just sat and chuckled politely as NATO surrounded them.

Self defence is protecting yourself. Both will claim their actions are justified to defend themselves.

Both will claim what they want but only one of them is remotely valid. I am not defending or attacking anything or anyone. But those who try and draw comparisons that are gross exaggerations of the truth only inflame the situation. 
 

The Jews have a sense of being the victims. I think we should understand why. And that sense is only made worse if people exaggerate things, draw comparisons with Nazis ( for heavens sake ) or Putin. 
 

israel has been the. Victim of a terrible attack. Most right minded people are supporting Israel. 
 

I totally respect a view that Israel’s response may be disproportionate. But the kind of distortions we have seen on this thread ( and likewise spread across social media) only inflame an already perilous situation. 

[Day]

20 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Both will claim what they want but only one of them is remotely valid. I am not defending or attacking anything or anyone. But those who try and draw comparisons that are gross exaggerations of the truth only inflame the situation. 
 

The Jews have a sense of being the victims. I think we should understand why. And that sense is only made worse if people exaggerate things, draw comparisons with Nazis ( for heavens sake ) or Putin. 
 

israel has been the. Victim of a terrible attack. Most right minded people are supporting Israel. 
 

I totally respect a view that Israel’s response may be disproportionate. But the kind of distortions we have seen on this thread ( and likewise spread across social media) only inflame an already perilous situation. 

For a start, I disagree wholeheartedly again.

Nobody is talking about "The Jews", we are talking about Israel the country, the head of the country, those approving the launching of these rockets. That in your words response to an attack is disproportionate. Your words.

In the same breath, you claim most right minded people are supporting Israel, what, in this disproportionate response?? 

I would argue most righted people are not supporting either side and calling for a cease fire, stop the loss of lives and provide humanitarian aid to those in need. 

The comparisons to Putin are very basic. Disproportionate response in self defence. Now you can argue all you like that Russia had no reason to act in self defence, however they have, they felt it was necessary, likewise Israel feel justified in their acts of self defence.

It's not the Jewish people that are firing rockets. It's the military ordered by their government.

Inflaming the situation would be to continue bringing "The Jews" into this, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Jewish people. They could be Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, Christian, doesn't matter, completely irrelevant so I'm not sure why you continue to try and push this as some kind of forum attack on the Jews.

I'll repeat what I said earlier, I would argue most righted people are not "supporting" either side and calling for a cease fire, stop the loss of lives and provide humanitarian aid to those in need. 

Edited October 19, 2023 by David
Added important line. It's not the Jewish people that are firing rockets. It's the military ordered by their government.

[Ram-Alf]

A question if anyone could possibly answer, Below I've posted a Sky news report/video on the bombing of the hospital that killed 500+, It shows a crater no more than 1 metre long by half a metre wide and a foot deep, How could this be possible IF this was the bomb that killed 500+, The cars in the car park are destroyed but no evidence is shown on the hospital damage, Is this a propaganda piece by Sky news, Is this a propaganda piece by Hamas to point a finger at Israel...were 500+ people in the car park killed that night.

It just makes me wonder who, Why, When and where did this happen 🤷‍♂️

The video is at the bottom under ISREAL-HAMAS War

https://news.sky.com/

Edited October 19, 2023 by The Last Post

[PistoldPete]

4 minutes ago, David said:

For a start, I disagree wholeheartedly again.

Nobody is talking about "The Jews", we are talking about Israel the country, the head of the country, those approving the launching of these rockets. That in your words response to an attack is disproportionate. Your words.

In the same breath, you claim most right minded people are supporting Israel, what, in this disproportionate response?? 

I would argue most righted people are not supporting either side and calling for a cease fire, stop the loss of lives and provide humanitarian aid to those in need. 

The comparisons to Putin are very basic. Disproportionate response in self defence. Now you can argue all you like that Russia had no reason to act in self defence, however they have, they felt it was necessary, likewise Israel feel justified in their acts of self defence.

Inflaming the situation would be to continue bringing "The Jews" into this, it has absolutely nothing to do with the Jewish people. They could be Jewish, Muslim, Catholic, Christian, doesn't matter, completely irrelevant so I'm not sure why you continue to try and push this as some kind of forum attack on the Jews.

I'll repeat what I said earlier, I would argue most righted people are not "supporting" either side and calling for a cease fire, stop the loss of lives and provide humanitarian aid to those in need. 

Again David I said I respected the view that the response from Israel is disproportionate. I did not say it was or was not disproportionate. It may well be. 

Biden and Sunak have both supported Israel by flying to Tel Aviv and supporting them. They do not denounce Israel as murderers , call them Nazis or anything like that. Biden has said US response to 9/11 was not altogether right.. so maybe he had words of caution to give Israel about that. Sunak has mentioned humanitarian aid. We also need to clear passage to Egypt. 
These are al balanced views unlike many on this thread. 

British Jews I have spoken to feel strongly that Israel is often made the scapegoat. And feel strongly that they are acting in self defence. So criticism of Israel affects Jews who are not living in Israel. Criticism is ok but It has to be balanced. 

[ram59]

The loss of innocent lives on both sides is abhorrent, Israel would argue that its actions to defend itself are justified. To a certain extent I would agree, but they haven't taken sufficient steps to keep the loss of innocent Palestinians to a minimum.

They have the right to protect themselves and eliminate Hamas and in order to be able to achieve this with minimal casualties, they need the land to be relatively free of the population, within who the Hamas can hide. Hospitals should, if possible, remain neutral zones and not need to be evacuated. It would be far easier for Israel's forces to seek out Hamas forces and infrastucture if all civilians have been evacuated.

But, they gave only 24 hours notice of impending action, whereas a few days would have been more reasonable. 

[Alph]

Palestine has been the victim of Israel for decades. Nobody wanted to talk about it. 

For decades Israel have broken international law and killed Palestinians with missiles, bullets, fire, beatings and the treatment of Palestinians who haven't been killed make for stories that would turn your stomach 

Gaza is plunged into poverty and denied human rights. It's subjected to frequent assaults. 

Israel, a Jew homeland created to protect Jews from mostly Christian lands was created by the British. Who then could neither handle to huge influx of Jewish people or their clash with the Arabs who existed there. So they washed their hands of the situation. You may know about the King David Hotel bombing. Unable to deal with the Jewish insurgency they dumped the problem on the UN. Antisemitism at work here? They fled persecution to a Semite land?

Under the flag of Israel they've expanded and oppressed Palestinian people. 

I don't deny the legitimacy of Israel. I'm not Hamas. But we're talking about millions of displaced Arabs who still face the expansion. 

Are Israel victims? Of course they're victims of terror attacks. Of course there are those that deny their existence. 

Are Palestinians victims? Yes. Undoubtedly yes. 

Do you know what angers Palestinian people about Western media? That the story needs to be written from the festival attack. That they are being asked to condemn Hamas. Why? So the narrative can be that it's Israel v Terrorists. So that it can legitimise Israeli attacks. 

All protected by a blanket of anti-Semitism. 

We don't want to condemn Israel. That would be an admission of guilt for the last half century. We have to legitimise even the horrific treatment of Gaza. 

We don't want to consider Islamophobia. Just antisemitism. 

Why is this all in the mainstream media now? Because Israel was attacked. Because Israel suffered. That's why suddenly everyone give a flying feck. 

Palestinians must always condemn themselves. That's why the Piers Morgan interview I posted is so brilliant. Because Bassem Youssef perfectly exposes the narrative just by holding up a mirror. 

And people can't answer. They can only tell history from 2023. Specifically October. They must constantly find a way Israel is a victim. 

But the truth is the majority of death is Palestinians. Vast majority. The death of children is Palestinians. The loss of land is Palestinians. The prison of Gaza is full of Palestinians. 

But antisemitism/whataboutism etc etc. Hold the Muslims accountable. It's easier that way. Easier for the war mongering imperialistic America that were born in war and are forever in a state of war. Empire building for the modern audience

 

[Day]

1 minute ago, PistoldPete said:

Again David I said I respected the view that the response from Israel is disproportionate. I did not say it was or was not disproportionate. It may well be. 

Biden and Sunak have both supported Israel by flying to Tel Aviv and supporting them. They do not denounce Israel as murderers , call them Nazis or anything like that. Biden has said US response to 9/11 was not altogether right.. so maybe he had words of caution to give Israel about that. Sunak has mentioned humanitarian aid. We also need to clear passage to Egypt. 
These are al balanced views unlike many on this thread. 

British Jews I have spoken to feel strongly that Israel is often made the scapegoat. And feel strongly that they are acting in self defence. So criticism of Israel affects Jews who are not living in Israel. Criticism is ok but It has to be balanced. 

The US and UK have no moral high ground to stand on when it comes to bombing other countries so no, I wouldn't expect them to denounce them as murderers. 

It's disappointing neither joined the calls for a ceasefire. I can't wrap my head around that one. 

From what's been reported, Biden has said the Egypt border will reopen, however they need to repair the damage from the recent rocket attacks. I won't go into where they have come from.

What I don't understand is the desire to continue bringing Jews into this still, why are they being referred to by their religion like it somehow plays a part in this?

When 9/11 occurred, was we referring to Americans as the Christians, how the Christians were acting in self defence. Not at all.

Read the topic, members are not against the Jewish people, they are against the bombing of innocent civilians on both sides and quite open in labelling Hamas as a terrorist organisation.

I'm not sure where you feel the need for balance is, hold on, let's not want zero civilian deaths, let's support Israel with a few as they were attacked first. Now I know you wouldn't sign off on that at all, it's just confusing where you're finding this lack of balance like there is a huge support for Hamas on here or something when it's clearly not the case.

[PistoldPete]

1 minute ago, David said:

The US and UK have no moral high ground to stand on when it comes to bombing other countries so no, I wouldn't expect them to denounce them as murderers. 

It's disappointing neither joined the calls for a ceasefire. I can't wrap my head around that one. 

From what's been reported, Biden has said the Egypt border will reopen, however they need to repair the damage from the recent rocket attacks. I won't go into where they have come from.

What I don't understand is the desire to continue bringing Jews into this still, why are they being referred to by their religion like it somehow plays a part in this?

When 9/11 occurred, was we referring to Americans as the Christians, how the Christians were acting in self defence. Not at all.

Read the topic, members are not against the Jewish people, they are against the bombing of innocent civilians on both sides and quite open in labelling Hamas as a terrorist organisation.

I'm not sure where you feel the need for balance is, hold on, let's not want zero civilian deaths, let's support Israel with a few as they were attacked first. Now I know you wouldn't sign off on that at all, it's just confusing where you're finding this lack of balance like there is a huge support for Hamas on here or something when it's clearly not the case.

If you cannot see where over the top criticism of Israel leads to well someone posted Chris Willamsons response to the hospital tragedy… “ Israel has forfeited the right to exist” . Do you not think all Jews all around the world would not find that hateful to their race/ religion? And he is a former Derby MP not just some random crackpot. 
 

so you may say it is just criticising Israel government or whatever for attacking the hospital. Somebody on this thread said Israel was targeting civilians. That is not balanced. Did they bomb the hospital on purpose? Of course not . Actually it seems more likely it was Hamas anyway but either way that is where making exaggerated and inflammatory claims takes you. It incites hatred. 

alpha I think quoted 6,000 civilian deaths . As if every Palestinian who is killed by an Israeli was innocently going about their business. I don’t think that is a balanced view. Tragically civilians are killed in any conflict. But there is no way every Palestinian who has been killed by an Israeli was an innocent civilian which is how he portrayed it. That isn’t balanced . Etc etc 
 

 

[Mostyn6]

35 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

British Jews I have spoken to feel strongly that Israel is often made the scapegoat. And feel strongly that they are acting in self defence. So criticism of Israel affects Jews who are not living in Israel.

why?

Why are British Jews concerned about "opinions" of/on Israel? I do not understand this if they are not Israeli. Is this a downstream affect of everyone being told that criticising Israel is anti-semitic?

[Stive Pesley]

19 minutes ago, David said:

What I don't understand is the desire to continue bringing Jews into this still, why are they being referred to by their religion like it somehow plays a part in this?

Indeed - and this highlights another curious paradox in the IHRA textbook definition of anti-semitism

It's deemed anti-semitic to conflate the state of Israel with Jewish people.

Which is fair enough when it's non-jewish people doing it, but viewed from the opposite angle - you see Jewish people constantly conflating criticism of the state of Israel as personal attacks on all jewish people...which is (by the IHRA definition) an act of anti-semitism...

 

[Day]

4 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

If you cannot see where over the top criticism of Israel leads to well someone posted Chris Willamsons response to the hospital tragedy… “ Israel has forfeited the right to exist” . Do you not think all Jews all around the world would not find that hateful to their race/ religion? And he is a former Derby MP not just some random crackpot. 
 

so you may say it is just criticising Israel government or whatever for attacking the hospital. Somebody on this thread said Israel was targeting civilians. That is not balanced. Did they bomb the hospital on purpose? Of course not . Actually it seems more likely it was Hamas anyway but either way that is where making exaggerated and inflammatory claims takes you. It incites hatred. 

alpha I think quoted 6,000 civilian deaths . As if every Palestinian who is killed by an Israeli was innocently going about their business. I don’t think that is a balanced view. Tragically civilians are killed in any conflict. But there is no way every Palestinian who has been killed by an Israeli was an innocent civilian which is how he portrayed it. That isn’t balanced . Etc etc 

Look back at the replies to that tweet on this topic. 

Members rightly called it out as inciting violence. Not one agreed with it.

I can see where over the top criticism can lead to, however that is not taking place in this topic. In my opinion anyway. 

Early reports suggested Israel had bombed the hospital, even Sky News ran the story, people will react instantly. You have to expect that. Had they reported a failed Hamas bomb, the same level of criticism would take place.

Now the waters have been muddied, nobody knows for sure other than those responsible. Either way, more Palestinian casualties have been added to the list.  

As for the 6000 civilian deaths, this came from stats provided by the UN. However to correct @Alpha, that is indeed the total, you can narrow it down.

All: 6,407

Armed Group: 1,022

Civilian: 3,803

Dispute: 1,582

3,803 civilian deaths, that is a tragic number still. Compare that to Israeli fatalities

All: 308

Civilian: 177

Armed Forces: 131

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

Now I'm sure the data cannot be 100% accurate, yet it's data which is being provided by the UN and without being on the ground ourselves we have nothing else to go on. 

 

 

[Alph]

What's a civilian that's not innocent? A Palestinian protest against illegal Israeli settlement in West Bank??

A civilian is somebody not considered in a combat role. I don't think we can begin to assume what they were doing wrong was worthy of death. 

Israel not targeting civilians.... I mean, they're bombing Gaza. They kill people in West Bank. People the UN considers civilians. It seems wrong to me to try and find ways to justify that by blaming Hamas or what the civilians may or may not be doing. 

@PistoldPete you are obviously majorly concerned about Jews and the perception of Jew etc etc. I absolutely get that. Especially outside the Middle East. I've seen horrible videos of antisemitic scum who have no clue of the complex history. This conflict definitely breathes life into all that. I hope that every government and media outlet will do everything they can to make this about Israel as a world power. The media won't though. Money money. 

But as for Israel bombing civilians on purpose? Why would they? 

Well, they're firing at a densely populated region. Civilian death is about as accidental as driving your car at 100mph wearing a blindfold. 

They're doing it in preparation for a ground offensive to obviously limit their own losses. 

But to what end? It doesn't eliminate Hamas. It does the opposite?

What do I think they should do? Well, bias as I am I think they're the aggressor here so I disagree with most of the entire history that brought us to this point. 

But perhaps increase military presence? Make life in Gaza even harder?  Take time and use their technology to hunt Hamas. Pretty much a continuation of the last 50 years. Because I'm not sure what they're achieving here?

Edited October 19, 2023 by Alpha

[PistoldPete]

6 minutes ago, David said:

Look back at the replies to that tweet on this topic. 

Members rightly called it out as inciting violence. Not one agreed with it.

I can see where over the top criticism can lead to, however that is not taking place in this topic. In my opinion anyway. 

Early reports suggested Israel had bombed the hospital, even Sky News ran the story, people will react instantly. You have to expect that. Had they reported a failed Hamas bomb, the same level of criticism would take place.

Now the waters have been muddied, nobody knows for sure other than those responsible. Either way, more Palestinian casualties have been added to the list.  

As for the 6000 civilian deaths, this came from stats provided by the UN. However to correct @Alpha, that is indeed the total, you can narrow it down.

All: 6,407

Armed Group: 1,022

Civilian: 3,803

Dispute: 1,582

3,803 civilian deaths, that is a tragic number still. Compare that to Israeli fatalities

All: 308

Civilian: 177

Armed Forces: 131

https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties

Now I'm sure the data cannot be 100% accurate, yet it's data which is being provided by the UN and without being on the ground ourselves we have nothing else to go on. 

 

 

Thanks David. I agree 3,803 civilian casualties is too many.