Summer Rumour Mill

[YorkshireRam]

23 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Nah, spend millions on an academy that produces small, technical, ball-playing midfielders, then appoint a manager who only wants to lump it forward and wants midfielders that just run around a lot.  Then when those players at at the lowest value they could be at, sell them for peanuts. It's the Derby way.

I think the departure of Darren Wassall and the appointment of Matt Hale starts to reveal the change of plan a little bit. DC probably wanted to appoint a manager that had long-term potential, step forward PW, but the conundrum then is if the academy continues the same way, it could create the problems you describe- lack of suitability for first team football. However appointing an academy director known for favouring physicality over technicality (massive generalisation) shows DC is looking to realign all aspects of the club to be pulling in the same direction.

Would you have preferred he appointed a manager that suited the academy, even if he realised the overall process was flawed? I prefer the long-term thinking considering we're in the midst of a complete rebuild. 

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, YorkshireRam said:

However appointing an academy director known for favouring physicality over technicality (massive generalisation) shows DC is looking to realign all aspects of the club to be pulling in the same direction.

I'm interested to know how you've reached this conclusion as I don't really know anything about the new Academy director.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

26 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

Easier said than done though isn't it.

What if Knight has said he won't be signing a new deal next year so it's sell now or he goes for nothing?

Same with Bird. His contract is up next year too. 

I get the sentiment and it would be nice. But it just barely works like that anymore. But regardless of if they are our youngsters or not. If players do not want to be here then they should go.

 I'd tell him he's free to do that but if we get promoted he probably won't get a better club although he may get offered higher wages.  The reason being that at the fees mentioned, even with another million, we should be hedging our bets on getting promoted as  the overall value to us would be huge even if he leaves at that point.  

If we got any compensation at that point, bearing in mind his international performances and mostly played in the championship, I'd suggest any difference in money coming in would minimal anyway. 

If we got a decent offer for Bird and we need money for transfers, I'd take it and use that to get more midfield goals. Always been a bit Butterfield lite for me.

I assume Cashin and the sporadic Louis also only have a year left.

The priority however, needs to be shifting the giant shadow that's Bielik 

[YorkshireRam]

3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

I'm interested to know how you've reached this conclusion as I don't really know anything about the new Academy director.

From the Bristol City forum of all places, believe he was involved there briefly

[duncanjwitham]

3 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

I think the departure of Darren Wassall and the appointment of Matt Hale starts to reveal the change of plan a little bit. DC probably wanted to appoint a manager that had long-term potential, step forward PW, but the conundrum then is if the academy continues the same way, it could create the problems you describe- lack of suitability for first team football. However appointing an academy director known for favouring physicality over technicality (massive generalisation) shows DC is looking to realign all aspects of the club to be pulling in the same direction.

Would you have preferred he appointed a manager that suited the academy, even if he realised the overall process was flawed? I prefer the long-term thinking considering we're in the midst of a complete rebuild. 

Yes. Absolutely. 100%.  

The academy is a long term project. It takes *years* for players to progress through it.  And almost certainly Paul Warne (and any other manager in fact) will not be here by the time the current younger age groups to come through.  We either have to decide that we want to be a club that really relies on its academy (in which case we need to decide what direction we want the club to going in football-wise, and *stick* to it), or we accept the fact that it's basically blind chance whether the youngsters coming through actually fit what the current manager wants.

And for what it's worth, it's not about the manager fitting the academy, the club (be that the board, the chairman, a director of football, whatever) should have a clear vision of what kind of football we want to be playing.  And the academy should be geared up to produce those kind of players, and we should be appointing managers that play that kind of football.

[Caerphilly Ram]

25 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

I'm slightly exaggerating of course (and it's a reference to the Will Hughes/Rowett thing as much as anything), but Warne's teams at Rotherham certainly didn't play in a way which involved central midfielders getting on the ball and passing it a lot.  It was very much everyone runs forward to attack and runs back to defend, get it wide quickly and get crosses in etc.  We certainly got more like that as last season went on as well.  And I don't see where player like Max Bird (for one) fits in a team like that.

Quick check back on 3 seasons of Warne at Rotherham on Transfermarkt and I found the following stats for his central midfielders in all competitions for the relevant seasons;

21/22 - League one season

Ben Wiles 53 apps, 10 goals, 7 assists

Dan Barlaser 52 apps, 10 goals, 9 assists

Olly Rathbone 52 apps, 2 goals, 5 assists

 

20/21 - Championship season

Ben Wiles 45 apps, 2 goals, 2 assists

Dan Barlaser 34 apps, 3 goals, 4 assists

Matt Crooks 42 apps, 7 goals, 3 assists

Lewis Wing 20 apps, 2 goals, 2 assists

Jamie Lindsay 37 apps, 3 goals, 1 assist

 

19/20 - League one season

Ben Wiles 40 apps, 3 goals, 6 assists

Dan Barlaser 35 apps, 2 goals, 5 assists

Matt Crooks 39 apps, 11 goals, 4 assists

Jamie Lindsay 28 apps, 1 goals, 4 assists

Thats a fair few assists for midfielders who don’t pass and just run up and down.

[Magicman]

33 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Who?

Dujuane Brown 

[Curtains]

On 12/06/2023 at 15:31, sage said:

Nope. We are signing Vickers

I knew all along just didn’t want to jeopardise it lol 😂 

[duncanjwitham]

3 minutes ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

Quick check back on 3 seasons of Warne at Rotherham on Transfermarkt and I found the following stats for his central midfielders in all competitions for the relevant seasons;

...

Thats a fair few assists for midfielders who don’t pass and just run up and down.

Literally none of that has anything to do with that I posted 🤷‍♂️.  Midfielders are still going to get assists in Paul Warne's system, if they're the right kind of midfielder for it.  Max Bird isn't.  If you tell Max Bird you want him running box to box, tackling, shooting, whatever, then he's not going to play as well as if you have him sitting in front of the back 4 picking the ball up and progressing the ball through midfield.

[MACKWORTHRAM]

44 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

But they won't go for nothing if we've offered them contracts they'd go for a compensation amount. How much to replace them, even frees will want good wages.

It's not a big gamble, they are gaining experience all the time, they are physically developing too. How much can non-Prem teams expect from their U21s/Academy players?!

We can offer them contracts all we want but we cant make them sign one.

[Caerphilly Ram]

5 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Literally none of that has anything to do with that I posted 🤷‍♂️.  Midfielders are still going to get assists in Paul Warne's system, if they're the right kind of midfielder for it.  Max Bird isn't.  If you tell Max Bird you want him running box to box, tackling, shooting, whatever, then he's not going to play as well as if you have him sitting in front of the back 4 picking the ball up and progressing the ball through midfield.

You said his system didn’t involve midfielders getting on the ball and passing it, I figured an idea of the assists his midfielders provided would add some context to your point.

[RoyMac5]

13 minutes ago, Magicman said:

Dujuane Brown 

Potential, but a bit soon. Pizza cup?

[YorkshireRam]

3 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

Yes. Absolutely. 100%.  

The academy is a long term project. It takes *years* for players to progress through it.  And almost certainly Paul Warne (and any other manager in fact) will not be here by the time the current younger age groups to come through.  We either have to decide that we want to be a club that really relies on its academy (in which case we need to decide what direction we want the club to going in football-wise, and *stick* to it), or we accept the fact that it's basically blind chance whether the youngsters coming through actually fit what the current manager wants.

And for what it's worth, it's not about the manager fitting the academy, the club (be that the board, the chairman, a director of football, whatever) should have a clear vision of what kind of football we want to be playing.  And the academy should be geared up to produce those kind of players, and we should be appointing managers that play that kind of football.

Maybe it simply came down to the fact that as good as we touted our academy as being, we're not producing top-quality talent. Hendrick and Hughes were okayish lower-end Prem players and that's the crop of our academy from the last decade. Even just looking at the raw numbers, for the money put in, were we seeing a return in transfer fees etc?

I think DC has just taken the chaotic situationship in which he bought the club as a chance to rebuild from the ground up. It'll create short term inconsistencies and potential discrepancies like this, but long-term should get the club back on a level-footing and the academy aligned to either produce profit, or first team talent. 

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, Caerphilly Ram said:

You said his system didn’t involve midfielders getting on the ball and passing it, I figured an idea of the assists his midfielders provided would add some context to your point.

It depends entirely what kind of assists they are though.  I suspect Bryson got a decent number of assists for McClaren's team, but very few of them would have been from getting on the ball and passing a lot (in the way Bird, Hughes, Thorne do etc), they were far more likely to from making runs beyond the forwards and playing simple passes/cross/cutbacks etc.  

[Van der MoodHoover]

2 hours ago, Eoghan1884 said:

B4 would be shifting that decimal point at least one place to the right......

[RoyMac5]

6 minutes ago, MACKWORTHRAM said:

We can offer them contracts all we want but we cant make them sign one.

No. But then we get compensation - so they don't leave for free. I'd be massively surprised if there was much difference between what we'd get as a transfer fee now or compensation after another season's 'experience' here. So why sell unless they'd rather leave or aren't wanted.

[Caerphilly Ram]

5 minutes ago, duncanjwitham said:

It depends entirely what kind of assists they are though.  I suspect Bryson got a decent number of assists for McClaren's team, but very few of them would have been from getting on the ball and passing a lot (in the way Bird, Hughes, Thorne do etc), they were far more likely to from making runs beyond the forwards and playing simple passes/cross/cutbacks etc.  

Sorry, I was being facetious. I take your point, I do disagree though. I think Bird could very much add goals and assists to his game as a midfielder in Warne’s system, and he is capable of playing as a deep lying midfielder screening the back 4. He could offer both, say if Knight does leave, Smith could be in there as the player screening the back 4 with Bird and Hourihane playing further forward. He’s got a decent pass on him (I recall one brilliant through ball last season but can’t remember which game) and he’s clearly got a shot on him, just rarely uses it. 
Bird seems to divide opinion on here, I’m a fan of his, is a tidy footballer with a decent physique who is young enough to develop further. He’s still potentially going to fill out physically too. 

[duncanjwitham]

1 minute ago, YorkshireRam said:

Maybe it simply came down to the fact that as good as we touted our academy as being, we're not producing top-quality talent. Hendrick and Hughes were okayish lower-end Prem players and that's the crop of our academy from the last decade. Even just looking at the raw numbers, for the money put in, were we seeing a return in transfer fees etc?

I think DC has just taken the chaotic situationship in which he bought the club as a chance to rebuild from the ground up. It'll create short term inconsistencies and potential discrepancies like this, but long-term should get the club back on a level-footing and the academy aligned to either produce profit, or first team talent. 

That's part of the issue I'm getting at though - we were just starting to see the results of the investment Morris put into the academy, many years later.  You'd got the ones that did break through Bird, Knight, Buchanan, Ebosele, Lowe etc. And Kaide Gordon, Liam Delap, Dylan Williams, the lad that went to Villa etc, the 3 lads that went to Man Utd etc, all basically forced out due to admin/cost-cutting.  

If we want to radically change the type of academy players we're producing, we're basically writing off the next 5+ years.

[YorkshireRam]

Just now, duncanjwitham said:

That's part of the issue I'm getting at though - we were just starting to see the results of the investment Morris put into the academy, many years later.  You'd got the ones that did break through Bird, Knight, Buchanan, Ebosele, Lowe etc. And Kaide Gordon, Liam Delap, Dylan Williams, the lad that went to Villa etc, the 3 lads that went to Man Utd etc, all basically forced out due to admin/cost-cutting.  

If we want to radically change the type of academy players we're producing, we're basically writing off the next 5+ years.

The first 2 plus Sibley are still saleable assets though, despite our recent financial woes. We've lost out on the like Gordon and Williams but that's admin for ya. So our issue is still with Morris, he ruined that future. DC restructuring and potentially refining the academy process and integration into first team- he may as well do it at this point when we are still a bit chaotic. I think it was more a case of when than if, so may as well start that process now?

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

5 minutes ago, YorkshireRam said:

The first 2 plus Sibley are still saleable assets though, despite our recent financial woes. We've lost out on the like Gordon and Williams but that's admin for ya. So our issue is still with Morris, he ruined that future. DC restructuring and potentially refining the academy process and integration into first team- he may as well do it at this point when we are still a bit chaotic. I think it was more a case of when than if, so may as well start that process now?

With Williams we apparently had brought in enough with Kellyman, Plange, Shinnie, Jozwiak etc and our manager advised him to leave as he couldn't turn down the opportunity. (In his own words)   As if we didn't have enough issues at the time.