Sigh 😔

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

But will not trust efl and will not forgive them for what they have done our great club.

Who spent all the money that got us in to debt, was that the EFL? Our club wasn't so great then - lots of businesses lost money. We did the crime and now we have to do the punishment.

[DanS1992]

On 25/03/2023 at 18:48, B4ev6is said:

Well today showed that elf done is over in jan window not able to bring in players but ref was poor once again not getting pen once again. When it should been a free kick to derby but oh no it was there’s and they go down other end and scored make 1-0 but should have defended it better for midfield look unbalanced and Rooney should have started in midfield to give it bits and 2nd goals was shambles I hate to say we have blown it.😩😭 

and now I am in pain.

Erm, we got White and Springett.

[B4ev6is]

37 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Who spent all the money that got us in to debt, was that the EFL? Our club wasn't so great then - lots of businesses lost money. We did the crime and now we have to do the punishment.

Well ask Wigan then came of admin spend what ever they liked we are new ownership.

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

Well ask Wigan then came of admin spend what ever they liked we are new ownership.

Different punishments were set for different clubs. We accepted it - David Clowes agreed it. Do you know better than him?

[B4ev6is]

46 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Different punishments were set for different clubs. We accepted it - David Clowes agreed it. Do you know better than him?

Thing is they were treated differently to us.

Well I do think he should be given fresh start like they said but in the end it was not a fresh start.

 

[RoyMac5]

26 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

Thing is they were treated differently to us.

Well I do think he should be given fresh start like they said but in the end it was not a fresh start.

 

Because they committed a different 'crime' to the one we committed. Do you think a burglar should have the same punishment as a shoplifter?

Why do you think you know the details and acceptability of our punishment better than David Clowes? He accepted the business plan, he dealt with the EFL and has been building back the bridges that Mel Morris burnt. The EFL represents the 72 league clubs - they all have a say, perhaps some think we got off lightly?!

Edited March 26, 2023 by RoyMac5

[Boycie]

@B4ev6is

Do you accept Mel Morris put us in this position?

Could you answer that specific question without a “what about”?

[plymouthram]

I do believe it's been suggested that there will be some scope to review the current business plan with the EFL at the end of the season. I think this is based on the finance and budget is being run well by the club and they (Derby's owner & EFL) did not expect the amount of revenue the club have generated through season ticket sales and gate attendances being that large on the original forecast made back in July last year.

[gfs1ram]

3 hours ago, David said:

They were under no obligation to review or lighten the restrictions in January.

It's a punishment and we must complete our sentence. 

It won't be lifted in the summer.

It won't be lifted next January either.

This is all signed off, agreed with the EFL and what the situation is.

Warne isn't complaining, neither is Clowes. Everyone is just getting on with it.

You are of course correct in what you say and I know it has been agreed by Clowes but for me the punishment is wrong.

The EFL are punishing a new owner, a new manager and continuing to punish the Fans. I'm all for the EFL continuing to monitor DCFC finances but surely the 21 point deduction and relegation should have been the punishment. Why punish a new Owner?

If I, with my billions had takeover a Club I would have wanted the Club to benefit from my wealth ie by buying new players.

The EFL could have continued to monitor 'spending' against income so as not to see another MM situation but to ban spending on players for 2 years for me is just wrong.

 

[B4ev6is]

1 hour ago, Boycie said:

@B4ev6is

Do you accept Mel Morris put us in this position?

Could you answer that specific question without a “what about”?

He should have paid his debts not derby him built up the debts not the club.

[B4ev6is]

1 hour ago, gfs1ram said:

You are of course correct in what you say and I know it has been agreed by Clowes but for me the punishment is wrong.

The EFL are punishing a new owner, a new manager and continuing to punish the Fans. I'm all for the EFL continuing to monitor DCFC finances but surely the 21 point deduction and relegation should have been the punishment. Why punish a new Owner?

If I, with my billions had takeover a Club I would have wanted the Club to benefit from my wealth ie by buying new players.

The EFL could have continued to monitor 'spending' against income so as not to see another MM situation but to ban spending on players for 2 years for me is just wrong.

 

That is the point I have been trying to make.

[May Contain Nuts]

11 hours ago, B4ev6is said:

That is the point I have been trying to make.

There have only ever been three options

1. Clowes buys the club and agrees a business plan with the EFL including the restrictions we're under now.

2. Clowes buys the club and doesn't agree with the EFL on a business plan and the restrictions - this would either lead to us not being allowed to enter the league until something was agreed, or (if the EFL were feeling generous) starting the season with further points deductions.

3. Clowes doesn't buy the club, the club in liquidated. There is no Derby County for you to support, not as you know it. 

I'm pretty sure both options 2 & 3 are outcomes that you would like a whole lot less than the restrictions we're currently under. We have chosen the best option and we live with our choice.

Does that mean that we get away scot free to resume normal business? No. But it's still the best option.

Have we been punished too heavily? Possibly, but Clowes accepted it so if you have an issue with that then maybe send him a letter asking why he feels the EFL's terms were acceptable.

Is being under the current restrictions better than not having a club, having a club but not being allowed entry to the league, or being given another round of points deductions? Hell yes.

 

There's literally nothing you can do to change what punishment we were given. No march on the EFL offices or anything like that will get us free of restrictions, nothing you say or do will even loosen them - whether you consider them fair or not - any sooner than than sensible discussions between Clowes and the EFL will.

What you could and probably should do is look at how David Clowes is behaving, use him as an example of someone to look up to and model your behaviour and attitude on his. 

He's staying calm, getting on with business. That's all any of us can do.

He isn't writing columns in the program, doing TV interviews and making statements after every poor result raging at the EFL, he isn't complaining about it being unfair - and that's after buying the club has cost him £50 million!

If he did it would be wasted breath, and it would start to get on everybody's nerves. 

I also know the last thing you personally want to do is get on people nerves (and it would upset you to think that you were doing so) 

...but just like Clowes going on an anti-EFL rant every week would start to irritate people, a weekly rant from yourself will have the same effect. Be the bigger man B4, we know you can do it.

Next time you get annoyed with the EFL, take a deep breath and have a think. Don't touch the keyboard until you're feeling a bit more calm.

Think "if David Clowes isn't getting mad at the EFL, why am I? if David Clowes can accept the restrictions even after spending that much money, why can't I?"

I know it's difficult, but try not to be angry about something you cannot control or affect.

 

Edited March 27, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[MadAmster]

12 hours ago, gfs1ram said:

You are of course correct in what you say and I know it has been agreed by Clowes but for me the punishment is wrong.

The EFL are punishing a new owner, a new manager and continuing to punish the Fans. I'm all for the EFL continuing to monitor DCFC finances but surely the 21 point deduction and relegation should have been the punishment. Why punish a new Owner?

If I, with my billions had takeover a Club I would have wanted the Club to benefit from my wealth ie by buying new players.

The EFL could have continued to monitor 'spending' against income so as not to see another MM situation but to ban spending on players for 2 years for me is just wrong.

 

My understanding is that clubs exiting Administration have to come up with a 2 year business plan and the EFL has to agree to it. There's a sort of "skeleton", a blueprint. The club puts the meat on the bones. They then submit it to the EFL. The EFL then either agrees to it or requests amendments. I'm not 100% certain but I believe the plan DC submitted was accepted at the first time of asking.

The reason for the plan is to ensure the club doesn't immediately go down the same route and also to discourage others from following suit.

Using "round" figures, we paid off £20M of the £80M we owed and the rest was written off by the various creditors. MM wrote off £140M the club owed him. He also accepted £20M for Pride Park, having paid £80M for it, a loss of £60M. The screw up cost MM £200M. To his credit he's not moaned about it in public. Debit side is he shouldn't have spent twice the club's income during his tenure. That's the crux of the whole sorry mess. Income around £240M under MM, expenditure roughly twice that. 

Looking forward, there will be a review of the plan in the summer. Restrictions might, or might not be eased. I would warn people not to expect a big spending splurge when/if restrictions are eased this summer or gone next summer. That's not the Clowes way. He's shelled out £50M to get us where we are. He was said to have been worth around £250M. What he has already spent is probably the majority of his liquid assets. The rest will be tied up in stocks, shares, buildings, machinery etc. Those expecting a huge transfer fund will be very disappointed. I expect the club to make a profit this season and next. That profit will be the extent of Warne's transfer kitty. I don't believe Clowes will allow the club to spend money it doesn't have. No more gambling on reaching the promised land. We will get there when we get there and DCFC will pay its way.

[Foreveram]

22 minutes ago, Kokosnuss said:

There have only ever been three options

1. Clowes buys the club and agrees a business plan with the EFL including the restrictions we're under now.

2. Clowes buys the club and doesn't agree with the EFL on a business plan and the restrictions - this would either lead to us not being allowed to enter the league until something was agreed, or (if the EFL were feeling generous) starting the season with further points deductions.

3. Clowes doesn't buy the club, the club in liquidated. There is no Derby County for you to support, not as you know it. 

I'm pretty sure both options 2 & 3 are outcomes that you would like a whole lot less than the restrictions we're currently under. We have chosen the best option and we live with our choice.

Does that mean that we get away scot free to resume normal business? No. But it's still the best option.

Have we been punished too heavily? Possibly, but Clowes accepted it so if you have an issue with that then maybe send him a letter asking why he feels the EFL's terms were acceptable.

Is being under the current restrictions better than not having a club, having a club but not being allowed entry to the league, or being given another round of points deductions? Hell yes.

 

There's literally nothing you can do to change what punishment we were given. No march on the EFL offices or anything like that will get us free of restrictions, nothing you say or do will even loosen them - whether you consider them fair or not - any sooner than than sensible discussions between Clowes and the EFL will.

What you could and probably should do is look at how David Clowes is behaving, use him as an example of someone to look up to and model your behaviour and attitude on his. 

He's staying calm, getting on with business. That's all any of us can do.

He isn't writing columns in the program, doing TV interviews and making statements after every poor result raging at the EFL, he isn't complaining about it being unfair - and that's after buying the club has cost him £50 million!

If he did it would be wasted breath, and it would start to get on everybody's nerves. 

I also know the last thing you personally want to do is get on people nerves (and it would upset you to think that you were doing so) 

...but just like Clowes going on an anti-EFL rant every week would start to irritate people, a weekly rant from yourself will have the same effect. Be the bigger man B4, we know you can do it.

Next time you get annoyed with the EFL, take a deep breath and have a think. Don't touch the keyboard until you're feeling a bit more calm.

Think "if David Clowes isn't getting mad at the EFL, why am I? if David Clowes can accept the restrictions even after spending that much money, why can't I?"

I know it's difficult, but try not to be angry about something you cannot control or affect.

 

Don’t ever say you can’t do anything, if we hadn’t had the march, if we didn’t contact our MP’s and get celebrity supporters involved, if we didn’t send emails to the EFL, if we didn’t respond to the Tracy Crouch report we would most likely be in the position that Bury are in right now. # f*** the EFL.

[May Contain Nuts]

28 minutes ago, Foreveram said:

Don’t ever say you can’t do anything, if we hadn’t had the march, if we didn’t contact our MP’s and get celebrity supporters involved, if we didn’t send emails to the EFL, if we didn’t respond to the Tracy Crouch report we would most likely be in the position that Bury are in right now. # f*** the EFL.

I was specifically talking about the restrictions in place that have been agreed upon between David Clowes & The EFL, not the overall situation.

The regular discussions they're having regarding the restrictions will not be influenced by anything we as fans say. It may be influenced by the number of tickets we've brought and the amount of money we've put in despite being in the 3rd division, but not by us dwelling on the treatment we received and ranting about it online in the manner B4 has been doing.

I may have misphrased that as 'punishment' in the sentence you're referring to and given you the false impression I was on about stuff that happened prior to Clowes taking over and agreeing the business plan. Apologies.

The tone and the intention of most posters on this thread is designed to help B4 see that getting worked up, upset, angry and ranting about the EFL every time we have something go against us isn't going to get us anywhere, nor is it going to do any good for B4 himself as it only seems to perpetuate his ill-feeling, rather than acting as a release.

It's not the thread for "f*** The EFL" style posts, as they will only get him more riled up and feed into his unhealthy belief that everything that goes against us forevermore is a plot by the EFL to see us fail.

Edited March 27, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[FlyBritishMidland]

3 hours ago, Kokosnuss said:

There have only ever been three options

1. Clowes buys the club and agrees a business plan with the EFL including the restrictions we're under now.

2. Clowes buys the club and doesn't agree with the EFL on a business plan and the restrictions - this would either lead to us not being allowed to enter the league until something was agreed, or (if the EFL were feeling generous) starting the season with further points deductions.

3. Clowes doesn't buy the club, the club in liquidated. There is no Derby County for you to support, not as you know it. 

I'm pretty sure both options 2 & 3 are outcomes that you would like a whole lot less than the restrictions we're currently under. We have chosen the best option and we live with our choice.

Does that mean that we get away scot free to resume normal business? No. But it's still the best option.

Have we been punished too heavily? Possibly, but Clowes accepted it so if you have an issue with that then maybe send him a letter asking why he feels the EFL's terms were acceptable.

Is being under the current restrictions better than not having a club, having a club but not being allowed entry to the league, or being given another round of points deductions? Hell yes.

 

There's literally nothing you can do to change what punishment we were given. No march on the EFL offices or anything like that will get us free of restrictions, nothing you say or do will even loosen them - whether you consider them fair or not - any sooner than than sensible discussions between Clowes and the EFL will.

What you could and probably should do is look at how David Clowes is behaving, use him as an example of someone to look up to and model your behaviour and attitude on his. 

He's staying calm, getting on with business. That's all any of us can do.

He isn't writing columns in the program, doing TV interviews and making statements after every poor result raging at the EFL, he isn't complaining about it being unfair - and that's after buying the club has cost him £50 million!

If he did it would be wasted breath, and it would start to get on everybody's nerves. 

I also know the last thing you personally want to do is get on people nerves (and it would upset you to think that you were doing so) 

...but just like Clowes going on an anti-EFL rant every week would start to irritate people, a weekly rant from yourself will have the same effect. Be the bigger man B4, we know you can do it.

Next time you get annoyed with the EFL, take a deep breath and have a think. Don't touch the keyboard until you're feeling a bit more calm.

Think "if David Clowes isn't getting mad at the EFL, why am I? if David Clowes can accept the restrictions even after spending that much money, why can't I?"

I know it's difficult, but try not to be angry about something you cannot control or affect.

 

 

3 hours ago, MadAmster said:

My understanding is that clubs exiting Administration have to come up with a 2 year business plan and the EFL has to agree to it. There's a sort of "skeleton", a blueprint. The club puts the meat on the bones. They then submit it to the EFL. The EFL then either agrees to it or requests amendments. I'm not 100% certain but I believe the plan DC submitted was accepted at the first time of asking.

The reason for the plan is to ensure the club doesn't immediately go down the same route and also to discourage others from following suit.

Using "round" figures, we paid off £20M of the £80M we owed and the rest was written off by the various creditors. MM wrote off £140M the club owed him. He also accepted £20M for Pride Park, having paid £80M for it, a loss of £60M. The screw up cost MM £200M. To his credit he's not moaned about it in public. Debit side is he shouldn't have spent twice the club's income during his tenure. That's the crux of the whole sorry mess. Income around £240M under MM, expenditure roughly twice that. 

Looking forward, there will be a review of the plan in the summer. Restrictions might, or might not be eased. I would warn people not to expect a big spending splurge when/if restrictions are eased this summer or gone next summer. That's not the Clowes way. He's shelled out £50M to get us where we are. He was said to have been worth around £250M. What he has already spent is probably the majority of his liquid assets. The rest will be tied up in stocks, shares, buildings, machinery etc. Those expecting a huge transfer fund will be very disappointed. I expect the club to make a profit this season and next. That profit will be the extent of Warne's transfer kitty. I don't believe Clowes will allow the club to spend money it doesn't have. No more gambling on reaching the promised land. We will get there when we get there and DCFC will pay its way.

Two excellent posts.  David Clowes stumped somewhere in the region of £55M to buy the club.  He prepared a business plan that paid off 100% of the football creditors and 25% of the debt too non-football creditors meaning we avoided a 15 point penalty this season, which based on out current points would see us 4 points outside the relegation zone.

He agreed to not paying transfer fees, it wasn’t imposed.  And regardless, after having spent £55M to buy the club, I suspect he wouldn’t want to pay transfer fees anyway.

And I don’t think a comparison to Wigan is appropriate.  Their previous owner wrote off something like £35M of debt, leaving them with around £10M for the new owner to settle and buy the club, including the stadium and all assets.  Not forgetting they would only have to pay 25% to non-footballing creditors, reducing that number significantly.  They owed HMRC £2.8M, we owed about 10 times that.  A totally different situation.

David Clowes is trying to change the image and reputation of the club.  It wouldn’t sit right with those outside Derby if he wrote of 75% of the money owed to HMRC and other creditors to then start paying transfer fees, etc.  No matter how small.

There’s a bigger picture and a longer game to be played, not just this season.

Edited March 27, 2023 by FlyBritishMidland

[B4ev6is]

2 hours ago, Kokosnuss said:

I was specifically talking about the restrictions in place that have been agreed upon between David Clowes & The EFL, not the overall situation.

The regular discussions they're having regarding the restrictions will not be influenced by anything we as fans say. It may be influenced by the number of tickets we've brought and the amount of money we've put in despite being in the 3rd division, but not by us dwelling on the treatment we received and ranting about it online in the manner B4 has been doing.

I may have misphrased that as 'punishment' in the sentence you're referring to and given you the false impression I was on about stuff that happened prior to Clowes taking over and agreeing the business plan. Apologies.

The tone and the intention of most posters on this thread is designed to help B4 see that getting worked up, upset, angry and ranting about the EFL every time we have something go against us isn't going to get us anywhere, nor is it going to do any good for B4 himself as it only seems to perpetuate his ill-feeling, rather than acting as a release.

It's not the thread for "f*** The EFL" style posts, as they will only get him more riled up and feed into his unhealthy belief that everything that goes against us forevermore is a plot by the EFL to see us fail.

Well I felt efl been against us for years now before what mel did guys  but I understand once restrictions are lifted there wont be lots money spent. But might be like nigel clough had not that I am against that. Because shopping in lower leagues you can find some very very good players.

Do I trust efl hell no I dont.

[May Contain Nuts]

56 minutes ago, B4ev6is said:

Well I felt efl been against us for years now before what mel did guys  but I understand once restrictions are lifted there wont be lots money spent. But might be like nigel clough had not that I am against that. Because shopping in lower leagues you can find some very very good players.

Do I trust efl hell no I dont.

You don't need to trust the EFL B4, I don't think many of us do!

But you can trust David Clowes, and he is OK with what they are asking us to do. He has a long term plan to keep them off our backs in the future.

If we stick to the plan the EFL can't touch us - the ultimate victory won't come by shouting and swearing about them it will come by overcoming their restrictions, sticking a metaphorical two fingers up at them as we go!

And yes, exactly, that's the spirit - with a budget similar to Nigel Clough's and with the aim to bring in the right sort of characters to the squad, we could in a few short years build a squad to challenge the one from 2013/14. Brighter days are ahead.

I know you try to keep positive, and I'm happy to see you thinking of the future rather than dwelling on the past

👍 🐏

Edited March 27, 2023 by Kokosnuss

[Yani P]

2 hours ago, FlyBritishMidland said:

 

Two excellent posts.  David Clowes stumped somewhere in the region of £55M to buy the club.  He prepared a business plan that paid off 100% of the football creditors and 25% of the debt too non-football creditors meaning we avoided a 15 point penalty this season, which based on out current points would see us 4 points outside the relegation zone.

He agreed to not paying transfer fees, it wasn’t imposed.  And regardless, after having spent £55M to buy the club, I suspect he wouldn’t want to pay transfer fees anyway.

And I don’t think a comparison to Wigan is appropriate.  Their previous owner wrote off something like £35M of debt, leaving them with around £10M for the new owner to settle and buy the club, including the stadium and all assets.  Not forgetting they would only have to pay 25% to non-footballing creditors, reducing that number significantly.  They owed HMRC £2.8M, we owed about 10 times that.  A totally different situation.

David Clowes is trying to change the image and reputation of the club.  It wouldn’t sit right with those outside Derby if he wrote of 75% of the money owed to HMRC and other creditors to then start paying transfer fees, etc.  No matter how small.

There’s a bigger picture and a longer game to be played, not just this season.

I agree I think the limit on transfer spend suits Clowes for a couple of seasons to allow him to assess and stabilize after forking out a huge sum to save the club.

[1977 Ram Raider]