Archied Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 13 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: Agreed. And no one is accusing you of having an issue with an immigrants colour. The fact remains though that the UKs response to the Ukrainian crisis has been one of the most openly racist policies of my lifetime I have good friends in Leicester whose kids have recently left home so they applied to house a Ukrainian refugee. They were not only paid by the government to do this, but they also saw that the lady they took in was fast tracked for job interviews, offered free training for jobs that she had no skills in, and then once she got a job was offered subsidised housing She was fleeing a warzone. The UK wasn't the "first safe country she passed through". No different to many refugees from Africa or Asia. There is no other explanation for the disparity in treatment. You will get no argument from me on your points above Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 7 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: There are 30k a year trying at the moment, a percentage of those are economic but many are fleeing persecution. If we opened up a legal process for many of those to apply the boats would no longer be needed for them and we could do the right thing. The boats are partly our fault, we give the smugglers the opportunity. As for being a small island being expected to behave like a Tardis - calm down on the hyperbole on that one. As for not being able to support, we perfectly can but we just choose to continue to elect parties who implement rafts of policies that do exactly the opposite. So this planet dying hyperbole has to be addressed NOW but the fact that we are a finite sized island does not , we just take any number with no cap and what ? Deal with it further down the line? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 Just now, Archied said: So this planet dying hyperbole has to be addressed NOW but the fact that we are a finite sized island does not , we just take any number with no cap and what ? Deal with it further down the line? You really have been reading too many copies of the Daily Mail - of course we are not just going to open up the borders and let in anyone who can make the passage. We assess and allow entry based on various criteria - either they are sufficiently at threat to warrant asylum or they make the points system criteria and come for economic reasons. As others have said, when it's those ones with the same colour skin as us from Ukraine we seem to be able to put in place all sorts of programmes that will hopefully help them rebuild their lives and also boost our ecomony once they enter the workplace. In six months we have offered more visas and assistance than we did in the entire period of 2016-2021. We're off thread here but still, what is it that allows us to willingly resettle 115,000 Ukranians when for five years prior a number of 20k was enough to have many in the country screaming that we were full to bursting. We are not, we were not, and the last six months has proved that - conclusively. ariotofmyown 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 24 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: Agreed. And no one is accusing you of having an issue with an immigrants colour. The fact remains though that the UKs response to the Ukrainian crisis has been one of the most openly racist policies of my lifetime I have good friends in Leicester whose kids have recently left home so they applied to house a Ukrainian refugee. They were not only paid by the government to do this, but they also saw that the lady they took in was fast tracked for job interviews, offered free training for jobs that she had no skills in, and then once she got a job was offered subsidised housing She was fleeing a warzone. The UK wasn't the "first safe country she passed through". No different to many refugees from Africa or Asia. There is no other explanation for the disparity in treatment. Britain's only taken around 120,000 of the estimated 6.2m people who have left Ukraine since the war began and has been heavily criticised for the sluggishness of the response. The government are not exactly falling over itself to take more and the Red Cross are warning that up to half of those refugees could be homeless by the end of the year if the sponsorship scheme isn't extended. There's been a fair number of reports also about unscrupulous people exploiting some refugees. I think it's therefore hard to argue that the government's policy towards Ukrainian refugees has been markedly better than its attitude to other refugee groups. I think it's fair to argue that the general population are better disposed towards Ukrainian refugees than non-White refugees, but that in part is undoubtedly due to the nature of the war in Ukraine as well as cultural aspects, whilst of course racism plays its part. I think though that migrants from Eastern Europe over the last 20 years have experienced very similar levels of discrimination to those from Asia and Africa. Some people just don't like immigrants - they may have a hierarchy in their heads, but Brexit demonstrated that some people are equal opportunity bigots. ariotofmyown 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 (edited) 32 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: You really have been reading too many copies of the Daily Mail - of course we are not just going to open up the borders and let in anyone who can make the passage. We assess and allow entry based on various criteria - either they are sufficiently at threat to warrant asylum or they make the points system criteria and come for economic reasons. As others have said, when it's those ones with the same colour skin as us from Ukraine we seem to be able to put in place all sorts of programmes that will hopefully help them rebuild their lives and also boost our ecomony once they enter the workplace. In six months we have offered more visas and assistance than we did in the entire period of 2016-2021. We're off thread here but still, what is it that allows us to willingly resettle 115,000 Ukranians when for five years prior a number of 20k was enough to have many in the country screaming that we were full to bursting. We are not, we were not, and the last six months has proved that - conclusively. How many Ukrainians are actively seeking asylum and how many are planning to return when the war is over ? Same applies to any other groups. Edited October 25, 2022 by cstand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 18 minutes ago, Crewton said: Britain's only taken around 120,000 of the estimated 6.2m people who have left Ukraine since the war began and has been heavily criticised for the sluggishness of the response. The government are not exactly falling over itself to take more and the Red Cross are warning that up to half of those refugees could be homeless by the end of the year if the sponsorship scheme isn't extended. There's been a fair number of reports also about unscrupulous people exploiting some refugees. I think it's therefore hard to argue that the government's policy towards Ukrainian refugees has been markedly better than its attitude to other refugee groups. I think it's fair to argue that the general population are better disposed towards Ukrainian refugees than non-White refugees, but that in part is undoubtedly due to the nature of the war in Ukraine as well as cultural aspects, whilst of course racism plays its part. I think though that migrants from Eastern Europe over the last 20 years have experienced very similar levels of discrimination to those from Asia and Africa. Some people just don't like immigrants - they may have a hierarchy in their heads, but Brexit demonstrated that some people are equal opportunity bigots. While I agree with much of what you have said above the pure fact is that we allowed more Ukranians into the UK in six months than we did all refugees in five years prior. That is a fact - it is very easy to argue. Your point that we have inherited a bit of a time bomb, with many likely to be homeless, is correct. However, I'm not sure many living in Aleppo under ISIS would have agreed with you that the nature of the war in Ukraine warranted preferential treatment. I think you're right on the preference, it's racist (and politically opportunist) at a governmental level - we didn't want to let those in from the Middle East because we were terrified they were all terrorists, it served certain people well (Boris) to be seen to be supporting Ukraine. Hence the stats on News at Ten last night stating the significant decrease in population who are primarily worried about immigration. Not sure what this has got to do with Extinction Rebellion any more - I tried to make an associated point to begin with but I do appreciate I have taken the thread a little off tangent. Apologies for that, I shall now give way... ariotofmyown 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewton Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 40 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: However, I'm not sure many living in Aleppo under ISIS would have agreed with you that the nature of the war in Ukraine warranted preferential treatment. I don't think Aleppo was ever under ISIS control - you may be thinking of Raqqa? And of course any refugee would wonder why they were apparently being treated less favourably than others. And it's fair to argue that Britain should have taken a greater share of Syrian refugees. But the nature of the two conflicts (one a 'simple' invasion of one country by its neighbour, the other a civil war with many outside combatants getting involved in various facets of the conflict) are very different in origin and nature. The government's preferential approach towards both Ukrainian and Honk Kong 'refugees' suggests both cultural and economic factors are at work rather than 'purely' racism. There's simply a certain type of refugee that isn't welcome under their policy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sage Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 On 17/10/2022 at 16:40, Gee SCREAMER !! said: What happens if some group decides that someone whose 80 and living in a 3 bedroom house shouldn't have it anymore as they're taking up too much room on their own. Will they have s*** pushed through the letterbox on a weekly basis. The Government is already doing this with the Bedroom Tax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, BaaLocks said: You really have been reading too many copies of the Daily Mail - of course we are not just going to open up the borders and let in anyone who can make the passage. We assess and allow entry based on various criteria - either they are sufficiently at threat to warrant asylum or they make the points system criteria and come for economic reasons. As others have said, when it's those ones with the same colour skin as us from Ukraine we seem to be able to put in place all sorts of programmes that will hopefully help them rebuild their lives and also boost our ecomony once they enter the workplace. In six months we have offered more visas and assistance than we did in the entire period of 2016-2021. We're off thread here but still, what is it that allows us to willingly resettle 115,000 Ukranians when for five years prior a number of 20k was enough to have many in the country screaming that we were full to bursting. We are not, we were not, and the last six months has proved that - conclusively. Same old same old stereo type patronising guff , you have no idea on my reading material and how varied and balanced it is or is not ,seem to remember we tended to agree on a more balanced similar attempt to understand the war in Ukraine, don’t remember you throwing the insulting guff then ,,, hmmmmm agree with me your fine , disagree and your a tabloid flag waving I’ll informed oik Edited October 25, 2022 by Archied Norman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 1 hour ago, Archied said: Same old same old stereo type patronising guff , you have no idea on my reading material and how varied and balanced it is or is not ,seem to remember we tended to agree on a more balanced similar attempt to understand the war in Ukraine, don’t remember you throwing the insulting guff then ,,, hmmmmm agree with me your fine , disagree and your a tabloid flag waving I’ll informed oik You're right - I apologise about the Daily Mail reference cstand and Archied 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Archied Posted October 25, 2022 Share Posted October 25, 2022 36 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: You're right - I apologise about the Daily Mail reference Accepted ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 Not sure this is a great look for Sunak to decline his invitation to COP27 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63418876 But it's OK he's sending Therese Coffey cstand 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 Just amazing to hear Julia Hartley Brewer in full fast lane climate change denier mode on Question Time last night. Look, I get the point that weather is not climate and one hot summer is not the end of days but, really, to be so utterly dumb as to suggest it just isn't happening is, well, good for the clicks I guess. Highgate 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BaaLocks Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 54 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: Not sure this is a great look for Sunak to decline his invitation to COP27 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-63418876 But it's OK he's sending Therese Coffey Maybe she can give Mother Earth some free antibiotics - that should solve the problem... Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ram-Alf Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 10 minutes ago, BaaLocks said: Just amazing to hear Julia Hartley Brewer in full fast lane climate change denier mode on Question Time last night. Look, I get the point that weather is not climate and one hot summer is not the end of days but, really, to be so utterly dumb as to suggest it just isn't happening is, well, good for the clicks I guess. I've just got back from my run, It's very balmy out there in Derby, It was 20c in some parts of England yesterday...very late October, Melbourne Australia is under water or was this last 2 weeks and the cricket has been rained off. Climate change...Never Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 3 hours ago, BaaLocks said: Just amazing to hear Julia Hartley Brewer in full fast lane climate change denier mode on Question Time last night. Look, I get the point that weather is not climate and one hot summer is not the end of days but, really, to be so utterly dumb as to suggest it just isn't happening is, well, good for the clicks I guess. Climate change has always happened and always will even if we stopped using oil and gas. Archied 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 We still have tomatoes growing on our outdoor plants, which is unprecedented. Every Halloween we have a party for the kids, and normally the vegetable patch is cleared, as that's where I launch the fireworks from (don't tell David). It's not just the UK either https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63421150 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 16 minutes ago, cstand said: Climate change has always happened and always will even if we stopped using oil and gas. That is true, but the important caveat is that it will happen at a natural, much slower rate if we stop burning fossil fuels You often see this graph posted online to illustrate your point. Going back 400,000 years, yes we can see that there have been peaks and troughs in the natural cycle of C02 in the atmosphere But then you notice that this graph stops in 1950. Which is pretty much the point at which mass industrialisation of the planet started So how does it look now? Pretty much a vertical line I don't think any amount facts can counter this, only denial JoetheRam and Highgate 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 4 hours ago, BaaLocks said: Just amazing to hear Julia Hartley Brewer in full fast lane climate change denier mode on Question Time last night. Look, I get the point that weather is not climate and one hot summer is not the end of days but, really, to be so utterly dumb as to suggest it just isn't happening is, well, good for the clicks I guess. J H-B works for Murdoch who has financial interests in Genie Energy. It's not dumb, its not for clicks, its her job! All the fossil fuel companies spend many millions on climate change denial, bit like the tobacco companies spent decades and millions denying any link to smoking related illnesses. As with nearly all mainstream media outlets nowadays, just look who owns them. Its always about the money. Highgate and ariotofmyown 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstand Posted October 28, 2022 Share Posted October 28, 2022 58 minutes ago, Stive Pesley said: That is true, but the important caveat is that it will happen at a natural, much slower rate if we stop burning fossil fuels You often see this graph posted online to illustrate your point. Going back 400,000 years, yes we can see that there have been peaks and troughs in the natural cycle of C02 in the atmosphere But then you notice that this graph stops in 1950. Which is pretty much the point at which mass industrialisation of the planet started So how does it look now? Pretty much a vertical line I don't think any amount facts can counter this, only denial I am not denying fossil fuels are contributing and I am all for reducing fossil fuel as much as possible for many reasons. Trouble is activists going over the top with their actions actually turns many people off engaging with any meaningful dialogue about the subject. Unfortunately Covid, Ukraine war and excessive worldwide government's debt has got in the way as well so it’s not looking good for a worldwide agreement but we can all live in hope Stive Pesley 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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