The Ukraine War

[Archied]

2 hours ago, Highgate said:

But you are making it sound like Russia and Ukraine (or even the West)  are equally culpable in this particular war.  Surely you agree that Putin is far more to blame than anyone else for this conflict?  

Equally?? 
do you think any of us plebs could work out the full rights and wrongs at this point ( perhaps years on more information emerges),

all I know is there seems to be next to no real effort to stop the killing and the west are pumping arms into the theatre and this is going to go on and on and perhaps to the start of nuclear war 

[Highgate]

10 minutes ago, Archied said:

Equally?? 
do you think any of us plebs could work out the full rights and wrongs at this point ( perhaps years on more information emerges),

all I know is there seems to be next to no real effort to stop the killing and the west are pumping arms into the theatre and this is going to go on and on and perhaps to the start of nuclear war 

Full rights and wrongs is always too much to ask for, but I think it's pretty easy at this point, even for us plebs, to realize that this is Putin's war.  

I agree that it would have been good to see a bigger effort from the US to bring the warring parties to the negotiation table, but on the other hand if Ukraine are determined to fight this invasion then it seems like the right thing to do to support them as much as we can.  It seems like both Ukraine and Russia have red lines that the other simply won't accept so unfortunately it's likely that negotiations would have failed anyway.  And now, after Russia's declared annexation of Ukrainian regions, Zelensky has stated that there is simply no point even trying to talk to Putin any longer. 

The nuclear threat is a huge worry no doubt.  But it's a terrible dilemma, if west backs away as a result of Putin's nuclear sabre rattling...where does that leave us?  He (or any other nuclear power) can simply annex part of other countries as they wish, simply because he possesses nuclear weapons?  That would be a dreadful precedent to set.  

[Alph]

Why would America want this war to end? Russia wearing itself out against Ukraine and now becoming desperate and weaker is absolutely fine by them. 

We just have to hope somebody in Russia will put Russia before their pride and do the right thing. 

[Alph]

There must be growing opposition to Putin. 

[Crewton]

I could have sworn that one European leader after another trooped into Putin's presence, usually after a long wait and sat at the end of a very long table, to plead with Putin not to invade Ukraine, to no avail. The Chinese asked him to delay any attack, to no avail. America warned Europe that all signs pointed to a large scale attack on multiple fronts being planned, but there was no agreement among them or indeed within NATO about what to do. Biden even warned Putin about the consequences of such an attack, to no avail.

The only person to blame for this war is Putin and those around him who encouraged him and any other countries who wanted Europe and the West further weakened by a catastrophic conflict. 

Yet it's America's fault and America's responsibility to sell Ukraine down the river to stop a lunatic from killing even more people?

GMS 

 

[Highgate]

9 minutes ago, Alpha said:

There must be growing opposition to Putin. 

Yeah...it simply has to be increasing. The 'rally around the flag' bounce in support if a leader, that countries always seem to get at the start of a war, is well and truly gone at this stage. It's hard to know if anything is piercing through the tight propaganda bubble that exists there now....but it's clear that the recent major mobilization has not gone down well with a lot of people in Russia.

But even if there is a growing opposition to Putin, what exactly should they do?...and if they are successful, who comes after Putin? 

[Anag Ram]

1 minute ago, Highgate said:

Yeah...it simply has to be increasing. The 'rally around the flag' bounce in support if a leader, that countries always seem to get at the start of a war, is well and truly gone at this stage. It's hard to know if anything is piercing through the tight propaganda bubble that exists there now....but it's clear that the recent major mobilization has not gone down well with a lot of people in Russia.

But even if there is a growing opposition to Putin, what exactly should they do?...and if they are successful, who comes after Putin? 

 

[Alph]

21 minutes ago, Crewton said:

 

Yet it's America's fault and America's responsibility to sell Ukraine down the river to stop a lunatic from killing even more people?

GMS 

 

Who said this?

[Ramarena]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

Why would America want this war to end? Russia wearing itself out against Ukraine and now becoming desperate and weaker is absolutely fine by them. 

We just have to hope somebody in Russia will put Russia before their pride and do the right thing. 

I think politically the U.S would like the war to end, as long as that end is a Ukraine victory. The U.S can then say they played a big part in the defeat of Russia. There will also be opportunities to profit in the huge rebuild of the parts of the country that Russia destroyed. Add into this the benefit of Russia’s army already being ripped to shreds and being exposed as a paper tiger.

However the U.S military complex wouldn't want it to stop, as they are going to profit hugely, they are also massively influential.

Personally I don’t mind Russia being weakened from a military standpoint. I just wish there was a way to curtail the armies of the other imperialists (the U.S and China) as well.

If these countries spent more time and money on solving the problems within their own borders, instead of on massive armies then the world would be a better place.

[Alph]

12 minutes ago, Ramarena said:

I think politically the U.S would like the war to end, as long as that end is a Ukraine victory. The U.S can then say they played a big part in the defeat of Russia. There will also be opportunities to profit in the huge rebuild of the parts of the country that Russia destroyed. Add into this the benefit of Russia’s army already being ripped to shreds and being exposed as a paper tiger.

However the U.S military complex wouldn't want it to stop, as they are going to profit hugely, they are also massively influential.

Personally I don’t mind Russia being weakened from a military standpoint. I just wish there was a way to curtail the armies of the other imperialists (the U.S and China) as well.

If these countries spent more time and money on solving the problems within their own borders, instead of on massive armies then the world would be a better place.

Agree. Well said. 

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Alpha said:

There must be growing opposition to Putin. 

That tends to be alleviated by people falling out of high windows on to carelessly discarded piles of bullets.

[Ramarena]

Aside from the missiles, it seems another new tactic is developing.

Reports are suggesting that large numbers of Russian troops are entering Belarus. Looks like Putin has convinced Lukashenko that Ukraine was going to invade Belarus, to get him involved properly this time. 

Poland has told its citizens in Belarus to leave immediately.

If this is a big build up of troops, it puts Kiev at risk due to the proximity. Ukraine will have to cover that front, which may ease the pressure in Russia in the east and south. 

I don’t doubt these troops will be a shambles, but even a crap army can cause problems, if they attack where you aren’t expecting.

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Eddie said:

That tends to be alleviated by people falling out of high windows on to carelessly discarded piles of bullets.

I hope there's more people and not enough windows soon.

Like everyone I think Ukraine cutting supply lines and hitting back before winter sets in is a good thing but we live in fear of what Putin will do when he thinks he's got nothing to lose

[Ram-Alf]

38 minutes ago, Alpha said:

 but we live in fear of what Putin will do when he thinks he's got nothing to lose

Is this man mad enough to use Nuclear weapons, The thought of even a limited strike would bring in the USA, That in turn would invite China, The UK, France, India, Pakistan, Israel, N. Korea to act, Once Nuclear Armagedón is finished those that were in power or still alive will enter a world where their previous life was one of wealth and privilege will be a life of what...chaos, A free for all, Law breaks down, Death and disease, Economy shot.

I just don't see it 

  

[GboroRam]

One for the Musk fanbois. 

[Day]

On 10/10/2022 at 21:08, Unlucky Alf said:

Is this man mad enough to use Nuclear weapons, The thought of even a limited strike would bring in the USA, That in turn would invite China, The UK, France, India, Pakistan, Israel, N. Korea to act, Once Nuclear Armagedón is finished those that were in power or still alive will enter a world where their previous life was one of wealth and privilege will be a life of what...chaos, A free for all, Law breaks down, Death and disease, Economy shot.

I just don't see it

China didn’t even wish Putin Happy Birthday, so no surprise they wouldn’t even vote in favour of his annexation of parts of Ukraine. Not sure they would get involved.

I only see a few of ways out this war, either a military coup, assassination, Ukraine backs down or NATO retaliation to tactical nukes in Ukraine.

The latter being most likely.

There is no way Putin will willingly walk away from this without something, he’s far too deep in now. Zelenskyy by the day is getting increasingly unstable and appears to be unwavering in his demands to take back Crimea and join NATO.

Look at the Russian retaliation to the bridge being destroyed, to have Crimea taken away and see them join NATO would be a huge blow that he simply wouldn’t be able to stand by and watch.

The Russian army has taken major hits, all this is over in a few weeks when NATO pile in, the US are not interested in saving Ukrainian lives, they want Putin out playing the waiting game as his resources drain sufficiently enough where Ukraine feel confident in a major offensive in Crimea, then boom. Kyiv get’s hit with the tactical nuke.

I’m sure NATO are identifying all Russian military sites now for a shock and awe response.

I don’t see NATO responding with nukes, we all lose then as life as we know ends. China will sit back, they won’t even enter Taiwan and with a decimated Russian army they would be effectively spearheading that war

They won’t be happy about a US interference rebuild of Russia and see some kind of economic response.

I would love to believe it would be played out differently, I just don’t see how, even if Putin was assassinated for example, who is next, someone even crazier out to revenge the death?

[Highgate]

49 minutes ago, David said:

The Russian army has taken major hits, all this is over in a few weeks when NATO pile in, the US are not interested in saving Ukrainian lives, they want Putin out playing the waiting game as his resources drain sufficiently enough where Ukraine feel confident in a major offensive in Crimea, then boom. Kyiv get’s hit with the tactical nuke.

I’m sure NATO are identifying all Russian military sites now for a shock and awe response.

I don’t see NATO responding with nukes, we all lose then as life as we know ends. China will sit back, they won’t even enter Taiwan and with a decimated Russian army they would be effectively spearheading that war

They won’t be happy about a US interference rebuild of Russia and see some kind of economic response.

I would love to believe it would be played out differently, I just don’t see how, even if Putin was assassinated for example, who is next, someone even crazier out to revenge the death?

Well I hope that's wrong. I don't think it will happen....any Russian leader knows that Russian cities could be quickly flattened in response (even with conventional weapons) if they take this step.  But I think it's right to be worried about Putin's state of mind, after he has gambled so much, staked his reputation within Russia on this war and now is starting to look so weak and incompetent.  Unfortunately it's just possible that he would do something so crazy. 

If Putin were to be, to use that dreadful euphemism, 'neutralized', it would be far better that it's done from within Russia than by foreign agents.  It all depends on the successor, but I think there is a good chance that they, whoever it is, will see this war for the folly that it is, and for the sake of the Russian people, simply claim a sort of victory and end it.  I can't imagine there would be too much opposition to that decision from the Russian people at this stage. 

[Day]

14 minutes ago, Highgate said:

Well I hope that's wrong. I don't think it will happen....any Russian leader knows that Russian cities could be quickly flattened in response (even with conventional weapons) if they take this step.  But I think it's right to be worried about Putin's state of mind, after he has gambled so much, staked his reputation within Russia on this war and now is starting to look so weak and incompetent.  Unfortunately it's just possible that he would do something so crazy. 

If Putin were to be, to use that dreadful euphemism, 'neutralized', it would be far better that it's done from within Russia than by foreign agents.  It all depends on the successor, but I think there is a good chance that they, whoever it is, will see this war for the folly that it is, and for the sake of the Russian people, simply claim a sort of victory and end it.  I can't imagine there would be too much opposition to that decision from the Russian people at this stage. 

I hope I'm wrong as well.

Agree with you 100% on if Putin was to be "neutralised", it would have to be from within, any US/NATO involvement would not be welcomed at all.

Just not sure how realistic it would be, to break into that inner circle and have the full support to take on a mission like that is unthinkable.

Even sat here now don't entirely feel comfortable with the idea despite what he's done.

Needs locking up like he does with anyone that opposes him, see out his remaining days behind bars.

[Alph]

Even his allies must be thinking that all he's doing now is making Russia look weak and they'll be second guessing everything I would have thought. 

Even those who would claim all the lands of the USSR would surely be thinking he's done more harm than good. 

Problem is, Putin will be aware and I'm sure he will have surrounded himself with those that will go to the grave with him. His paranoia even for a Russian must be on a whole new level. 

If you're Putin you must be thinking that using nuclear weapons on Ukraine is an option. Will the West get involved if he does that? The first answer I think is "yes" 

But would we? If you weigh it up, would we? I don't think The West would respond in a similar way. 

It's utterly a last resort for Putin but if Ukraine continue pushing back and humiliating Russia and if Putin really sees no way out where he can leave Russia in a better position than it was pre war... I don't see what he has to lose. 

He's pointed to Hiroshima and Nagasaki too many times for it to not be a "look, I'm not setting a new bar for chaos here" kind of prelude

[Archied]

The simple fact is that to all intents and purpose the war is Russia v nato/ the west , we are arming them not only to defend themselves but to take crimea , now whether you think we should be arming them or not it’s a very dangerous situation and who can say where that leads on a world scale

Edited October 13, 2022 by Archied