The Ukraine War

[Ram-Alf]

4 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

 

Putin spoke recently in Vladivostok about how the West is all being played by USA - I don't think it is an understatement to say all his anger and bile is towards America rather than any European power. He is right to feel angry on that point, it doesn't justify his actions but the 'Leaders OF The Free World' have been playing power games in and around his back garden since 1991 and I do appreciate why that is so infuriating. Zelensky was empowered in a "we've got your back son" way in the breakdown of the Minsk protocol - maybe nobody expected Russia would react in the way they have but you don't go and just invade your neighbour (and spiritual cousin of a thousand years standing - at least in the East) without good reason.

But just look at the dollar today, and see how Franklin D played Churchill and others in WWII ad you will see who is the real winner of this conflict as we stand. Uncle Sam!

I watched a Documentary on Netflix the other day by John Pilger...it certainly opened my eyes and brain more than what I thought about the good old US of A

Have a read or better still if you have Netflix watch it and see how the States have monopolised the South China Sees, Below is the story and video.

http://johnpilger.com/videos/the-coming-war-on-china

A proxy War is being played out in Ukraine with a huge chunk of $s and arms being sent to Ukraine courtesy of America, Putin/Russia now appear to be on the back foot at the expense of 10s of 1000s of Ukrainians and Russians on both sides.

Putin now it would seem only has Gas to fight with, Europe will struggle this Winter as will Russian forces even more, My guess is Putin has been played like a cheap fiddle and America is pulling the strings. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Unlucky Alf

[BaaLocks]

45 minutes ago, Unlucky Alf said:

My guess is Putin has been played like a cheap fiddle and America is pulling the strings. 

And Zelensky

[GboroRam]

21 minutes ago, BaaLocks said:

And Zelensky

I don't agree with that. Other than capitulation, what could he have done? 

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Unlucky Alf said:

I watched a Documentary on Netflix the other day by John Pilger...it certainly opened my eyes and brain more than what I thought about the good old US of A

Have a read or better still if you have Netflix watch it and see how the States have monopolised the South China Sees, Below is the story and video.

http://johnpilger.com/videos/the-coming-war-on-china

A proxy War is being played out in Ukraine with a huge chunk of $s and arms being sent to Ukraine courtesy of America, Putin/Russia now appear to be on the back foot at the expense of 10s of 1000s of Ukrainians and Russians on both sides.

Putin now it would seem only has Gas to fight with, Europe will struggle this Winter as will Russian forces even more, My guess is Putin has been played like a cheap fiddle and America is pulling the strings. 

John Pilger has gravitated over the last couple of decades from serious investigative journalist into an "anti-Western" caricature of a serious journalist and an apologist for totalitarian regimes the world over. 

The USA has unofficially guaranteed the security of Taiwan and officially guaranteed the security of South Korea. To do that, they have no choice but to take a close interest in what China do in the SCS. 

[Crewton]

12 hours ago, Van der MoodHoover said:

I don't follow that platform. What are the rumours? 

There are reports that two municipal councils in the Moscow District have called for Putin to be charged with treason, and the councillors have been arrested as a consequence. 

[BaaLocks]

18 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I don't agree with that. Other than capitulation, what could he have done? 

It's what he did before the invasion I am referring to. If you look at the original agreement around the Minsk Protocol there was plenty for both sides to work around. Zelensky came in and was (imho) pumped up from behind to start breaking elements of that agreement. Originally, Poroishenko signed up and agreed to things like a referendum on Crimea. Zelensky took much of this off the table in the build up to the invasion, he is far from blameless in where we are today (yes, I know, he's our guy, we're not supposed to admit he was anything other than perfect, but it's my view).

[Ram-Alf]

18 minutes ago, Crewton said:

John Pilger has gravitated over the last couple of decades from serious investigative journalist into an "anti-Western" caricature of a serious journalist and an apologist for totalitarian regimes the world over. 

The USA has unofficially guaranteed the security of Taiwan and officially guaranteed the security of South Korea. To do that, they have no choice but to take a close interest in what China do in the SCS. 

With bases near to encircling China...I wonder what would happen if there was a case of China moving weapons to Cuba ?

Without going into the minutia of Pilger and his apologist for totalitarian regimes...did you watch the video, If yes, What in there is anything but a true reflection of the USA in the SCS, If you haven't I suggest you watch. 

[Alph]

It's good of the USA to decide who to offer security to. 

A bit like the city of Rome it just always seems to work out that their entirely defensive moves are perceived as threats by their warmongering enemies. 

So misunderstood by some. 

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Unlucky Alf said:

With bases near to encircling China...I wonder what would happen if there was a case of China moving weapons to Cuba ?

Without going into the minutia of Pilger and his apologist for totalitarian regimes...did you watch the video, If yes, What in there is anything but a true reflection of the USA in the SCS, If you haven't I suggest you watch. 

I don't really have the time or the inclination to view Pilger's works these days. His output in respect of the war in Syria and the Salisbury poisonings put paid to any respect I had left for him. 

[Crewton]

In the meantime. Chinese social media seems to be having fun at Moscow's expense :

Quote

 

 

[Alph]

I would say China and Russia only have mutual interests. Were they ever "with them" to turn on them? 

Just like parts of Europe will also forgive Russia for their own benefit. So China are friendly with them. For their own benefit. 

How deep does the concern for Ukraine/anger at Russia actually go? Not much deeper than domestic political dick waving and worrying about Russia's access to resources. 

I think that goes for anyone. It doesn't harm China for Russia to be at war in Ukraine. It doesn't harm them if Europe sees Russia as an enemy. What would USA be doing if, I dunno, a country in the Middle East was aggressive to America's enemies?

When it comes to poking people with a stick and acting neutral I'd say America has China beaten. 

Edited September 11, 2022 by Alpha

[BaaLocks]

4 hours ago, Crewton said:

In the meantime. Chinese social media seems to be having fun at Moscow's expense :

Personally, and excuse me for maybe being a bit plummy, but I don't really see much to laugh or scoff at. The average soldier is a kid, with parents that love them, that has no real beef with the enemy they have been sent to fight, that is carrying out instruction inside the 'theatre of war'. Very few of them would not happily swop the experience for chance to go home, sit on the sofa and watch television - from either side. There is not much humour in that for me.

[sage]

I did think a while ago that a referendum in disputed areas was the only way out of this, however I now increasingly think this is improbale due to the movement of people during the conflicts. It would be reliant on Ukrainian registers of voters prior to invasion and Russia would want it based on current residents. I hope I'm wrong. 

[Ramarena]

So while people sit here discussing who is the worst imperialistic nation (Russia or USA- neither are good) from the comfort of another imperialistic nation (Britain)……….The Russian army is being removed from large sections of Eastern Ukraine.

Its a pretty stunning turnaround all things considered. Troops fleeing back to Russia, surrendering and leaving large amounts of equipment behind.

Ukraine’s Army have pushed forward with on a very rapid liberation, they will soon have to slow down, fortify their positions, prep logistics, etc before moving onto the next stage. It’ll be interesting to see where they go next.

Its hugely damaging for Putin and his country. 

[Carl Sagan]

7 hours ago, BaaLocks said:

Personally, and excuse me for maybe being a bit plummy, but I don't really see much to laugh or scoff at. The average soldier is a kid, with parents that love them, that has no real beef with the enemy they have been sent to fight, that is carrying out instruction inside the 'theatre of war'. Very few of them would not happily swop the experience for chance to go home, sit on the sofa and watch television - from either side. There is not much humour in that for me.

Indeed, and one of the very worst things about this has been the forced conscription of all Ukrainian men, forbidden to leave the country and forced to fight. I'm surprised how little criticism of that there's been. I'm pretty sure it's similar on the Russian side too, in that the Russians are desperate for more soldiers here, so a lot of kids will be sent in to die.

[Archied]

6 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Indeed, and one of the very worst things about this has been the forced conscription of all Ukrainian men, forbidden to leave the country and forced to fight. I'm surprised how little criticism of that there's been. I'm pretty sure it's similar on the Russian side too, in that the Russians are desperate for more soldiers here, so a lot of kids will be sent in to die.

Yep that is a very big issue that has not been spoken about enough , no one should be forced to take up arms to kill or be killed 

[Ram-Alf]

9 hours ago, Ramarena said:

So while people sit here discussing who is the worst imperialistic nation (Russia or USA- neither are good) from the comfort of another imperialistic nation (Britain)……….The Russian army is being removed from large sections of Eastern Ukraine.

 

This should be in the "Our Queen" thread with all her ancestors ie Victoria, Commonwealth is a more appropriate expression ?  

[Alph]

17 hours ago, sage said:

I did think a while ago that a referendum in disputed areas was the only way out of this, however I now increasingly think this is improbale due to the movement of people during the conflicts. It would be reliant on Ukrainian registers of voters prior to invasion and Russia would want it based on current residents. I hope I'm wrong. 

Putin points to the internationally rejected referendums as a reason for the war. The ones that favoured joining Russia. 

I don't know how dodgy the voting was and I cant see how that justifies marching all the way to Kyiv. 

I had to have a little giggle when Putin recently commented on Liz Truss becoming PM was not an example of democracy in action. 

[sage]

2 minutes ago, Alpha said:

 

I had to have a little giggle when Putin recently commented on Liz Truss becoming PM was not an example of democracy in action. 

POT KETTLE BLACK X10

[BaaLocks]

11 hours ago, Carl Sagan said:

Indeed, and one of the very worst things about this has been the forced conscription of all Ukrainian men, forbidden to leave the country and forced to fight. I'm surprised how little criticism of that there's been. I'm pretty sure it's similar on the Russian side too, in that the Russians are desperate for more soldiers here, so a lot of kids will be sent in to die.

Yes indeed, we all remember images of men being dragged from their cars in the opening days of the conflict as they tried to flee. As for the Russian side, much is being said of the decision that awaits Putin - at the moment there has been no conscription but if believe what is being presented it will be his next big moment in how he handles this confilict. Don't introduce conscription and he may risk defeat, introduce it and he risks significant impact on his domestic popularity.