Wycombe threaten to sue and send us into admin. if we stay up!

[Spanish]

Just now, RadioactiveWaste said:

It'd go to the LAP if we appeal, I'm not sure how it works if both sides appeal but I imagine it would be one hearing that heard both appeals. If the EFL appeal I'm sure we will represent our side anyway.

If the EFL argument at all is "it needs to be harder because we lost the first part of the charge." I don't think it'll get much traction.

if the restatement shows no breach we should get that out asap.  Deters an appeal and certainly puts the LAP in a position where they should find it difficult to relegate us.  

[May Contain Nuts]

Would the LAP need to find that there was some fault in the original disciplinary panel's decision making process for any punishment to be overruled/increased, like they did when saying they shouldn't have ruled out the EFL's expert witness the first time around?

Assuming the original panel have covered their own arses better this time, is there even anything for the LAP to contest?

It can't just come down to... well our opinion trumps yours, can it? There has to be some legal founding, beyond mere professional disagreement.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Coconut

[Spanish]

17 minutes ago, Coconut said:

Would the LAP need to find that there was some fault in the original disciplinary panel's decision making process for any punishment to be overruled/increased, like they did when saying they shouldn't have ruled out the EFL's expert witness the first time around?

Assuming the original panel have covered their own arses better this time, is there even anything for the LAP to contest?

It can't just come down to... well our opinion trumps yours, can it? There has to be some legal founding, beyond mere professional disagreement.

yep need to see the DC2 verdict to see the reasoning why £100k is appropriate

[Asanovic70]

On 28/06/2021 at 16:50, Tamworthram said:

They couldn’t give Rotherham a few extra points or save them in preference to Wycombe. How would that be better for the integrity of the game than Rotherham being forced to play so many games in such a short period of time?

What integrity? It's unlikely, but if we are relegated, the EFL will be reprieving the one side who finished in the bottom three who didn't even have a realistic chance of staying up on the final day.

 

 

 

[JABBA]

1 hour ago, Asanovic70 said:

What integrity? It's unlikely, but if we are relegated, the EFL will be reprieving the one side who finished in the bottom three who didn't even have a realistic chance of staying up on the final day.

 

 

 

You forgot who probably shouldn’t even have been in the championship in the first place

[NottsRam77]

On 29/06/2021 at 15:25, Spanish said:

yep need to see the DC2 verdict to see the reasoning why £100k is appropriate

Does it suggest though if u compare it to say Leeds 200k plus fine for standing on a ladder and watching training games that the DC2 think that what we’ve done is pretty low key 

which it is the case I’m hoping /preying they will be pretty damming of the efl which again i am hoping / preying will put them off yet another appeal 

[Tamworthram]

2 hours ago, Asanovic70 said:

What integrity? It's unlikely, but if we are relegated, the EFL will be reprieving the one side who finished in the bottom three who didn't even have a realistic chance of staying up on the final day.

 

 

 

You can’t just judge it on their chances going into the last game of the season. OK, Rotherham had it tough having to play so many games over such a short period of time but, there wasn’t much else the EFL could do. Whether you like it or not, Wycombe did finish above Rotherham but you seem to be suggesting it would be fairer, and demonstrate greater integrity, to hand Rotherham a few bonus points in order to put them ahead. That would be the maddest thing ever.

[Spanish]

1 hour ago, NottsRam77 said:

Does it suggest though if u compare it to say Leeds 200k plus fine for standing on a ladder and watching training games that the DC2 think that what we’ve done is pretty low key 

which it is the case I’m hoping /preying they will be pretty damming of the efl which again i am hoping / preying will put them off yet another appeal 

More than a suggestion IMO extremely low key which is good and bad news because it may encourage the efl to appeal

[Asanovic70]

2 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

You can’t just judge it on their chances going into the last game of the season. OK, Rotherham had it tough having to play so many games over such a short period of time but, there wasn’t much else the EFL could do. Whether you like it or not, Wycombe did finish above Rotherham but you seem to be suggesting it would be fairer, and demonstrate greater integrity, to hand Rotherham a few bonus points in order to put them ahead. That would be the maddest thing ever.

Maddest thing ever? I think you should have look at how the EFL compiled last season's curtailed League 1 table.

League One reaction: Peterborough have been cheated says Barry Fry - BBC Sport

 

"I've been in the game 60 years and it's the biggest disappointment I've ever had," (Barry Fry )

"I feel my club has been cheated for the chance of promotion."

Peterborough - who had taken 22 points from their last nine games - finished seventh after the table was rejigged. Wycombe, who had a game in hand on Posh, climbed from eighth to third.

"Your form at home, your form away, they took nothing into consideration, I think it's been a disgrace the way it's been handled from day one," Fry added.

If you look at the fixtures played, Wycombe were one of three sides in the top 6 to play bottom side Bolton, Peterborough, meanwhile, had faced every top six rival home & away, bar one.

The most sensible thing is not to reward failure either, however that would lead to a lop-sided division. Another sensible decision, which is probably the most likely if we are found to have broken Profit & Sustainability rules, is to hand us a hefty points deduction to send a message that any financial irregularities will be dealt with in the most severe manner & not tolerated.

Yes, I agree the EFL could not do a lot more, forcing Rotherham to play with a weakened squad (like Bolton, Wigan in crisis) would have damaged the competition, giving a competitive advantage to their opponents, so the other option of playing every other two days became the only feasible one. There may have to come a time when Championship sides also play on international weekends, despite call-ups (perhaps in the same way some have to continue playing despite losing a player to Covid) rather than the intense schedule that seems to follow afterwards.

 

Edited June 30, 2021 by Asanovic70

[Tamworthram]

1 hour ago, Asanovic70 said:

Maddest thing ever? I think you should have look at how the EFL compiled last season's curtailed League 1 table.

League One reaction: Peterborough have been cheated says Barry Fry - BBC Sport

 

"I've been in the game 60 years and it's the biggest disappointment I've ever had," (Barry Fry )

"I feel my club has been cheated for the chance of promotion."

Peterborough - who had taken 22 points from their last nine games - finished seventh after the table was rejigged. Wycombe, who had a game in hand on Posh, climbed from eighth to third.

"Your form at home, your form away, they took nothing into consideration, I think it's been a disgrace the way it's been handled from day one," Fry added.

If you look at the fixtures played, Wycombe were one of three sides in the top 6 to play bottom side Bolton, Peterborough, meanwhile, had faced every top six rival home & away, bar one.

The most sensible thing is not to reward failure either, however that would lead to a lop-sided division. Another sensible decision, which is probably the most likely if we are found to have broken Profit & Sustainability rules, is to hand us a hefty points deduction to send a message that any financial irregularities will be dealt with in the most severe manner & not tolerated.

Yes, I agree the EFL could not do a lot more, forcing Rotherham to play with a weakened squad (like Bolton, Wigan in crisis) would have damaged the competition, giving a competitive advantage to their opponents, so the other option of playing every other two days became the only feasible one. There may have to come a time when Championship sides also play on international weekends, despite call-ups (perhaps in the same way some have to continue playing despite losing a player to Covid) rather than the intense schedule that seems to follow afterwards.

 

So, to be clear, if we were relegated (which I don't think will happen) you'd allow Rotherham to stay in the championship rather than Wycombe simply because a) they had a chance of surviving on the last day of the season (let's just ignore the rest of the season) and b) because they had to play a lot more games over a short period of time than the rest of us, and you don't think that's madness?

I agree, rewarding failure isn't sensible but, isn't that what you'd be doing if you allowed Rotherham to stay up ahead of Wycombe even though Rotherham collected fewer points?

I already know what happened in league 1 thanks and, whilst not ideal, if was a far less crazy thing than what you're proposing. So, yes, the maddest thing.

[Oldben]

Ultimately Derby need a working relationship with the efl.

It wasn't the fault of the efl, that Derby did the amortisation.

The real unfairness is the parachute payments to clubs relegated from the Premier league.

These payments make fair competition in the championship impossible.

So clubs who are not given an equal shout, take risks in an attempt to compete.

The efl want to be seen to have power.

At the moment the efl are reflecting on either taking points from the club, but with a transfer embargo on buying players and not paying high wages for free agents means Derby could be relegated next season instead of this. They have basically put Derby in a place where nothing works for them.

If Wycombe stay in the championship instead of Derby, Wycombe will be relegated next season, they don't have the fan levels of Derby nor the ability to fairly spend enough to compete with the other teams in the championship.

Wycombe are rubbish, don't see how they are meant to get better.

If Derby are relegated they will lose an estimated 10 million a year, as opposed to Wycombe 2 million a year.

If Derby are relegated, Mel could expect to sell Derby for 20 million, who would pay more.

Wycombe are estimated to be worth 7 million.

 

[Brammie Steve]

14 hours ago, NottsRam77 said:

Does it suggest though if u compare it to say Leeds 200k plus fine for standing on a ladder and watching training games that the DC2 think that what we’ve done is pretty low key 

which it is the case I’m hoping /preying they will be pretty damming of the efl which again i am hoping / preying will put them off yet another appeal 

Preying?

Good use of semantics!

Lots of non DCFC supporters are using every possible means at their disposal to prey on the Rams in the hope of totally destroying them by fair means and foul!

[Asanovic70]

13 hours ago, Tamworthram said:

So, to be clear, if we were relegated (which I don't think will happen) you'd allow Rotherham to stay in the championship rather than Wycombe simply because a) they had a chance of surviving on the last day of the season (let's just ignore the rest of the season) and b) because they had to play a lot more games over a short period of time than the rest of us, and you don't think that's madness?

I agree, rewarding failure isn't sensible but, isn't that what you'd be doing if you allowed Rotherham to stay up ahead of Wycombe even though Rotherham collected fewer points?

I already know what happened in league 1 thanks and, whilst not ideal, if was a far less crazy thing than what you're proposing. So, yes, the maddest thing.

To be honest, if you think I'm mad, then I think you're unimaginative. Yes, to (a). The cynic in me thinks Paul Warne was also upset final day because results meant Rotherham would not even be in a position to benefit from any possible sanction against us (relegation) with the EFL charges/appeal still hanging over us. Wycombe's upturn in form in the last 11 is remarkable. How did they manage 6W when they could only manage 5 in 35? I think clubs at the bottom knew, going on from what happened with Barnsley, that finishing third from bottom could open that possibility.

I thought the entire schedule last season mad as the EFL was fixated in packing in 46 games, barely six weeks after the end of a curtailed season, within a set time frame, international breaks etc, with little room for flexibility.  Playing games over a short period of time does affect teams. Even half a day's advantage can matter in a tournament like the Euros (5live build up to Sweden/Ukraine). It's before my time, but Derby possibly benefited from Leeds playing on a Mon after the FA Cup win in 1972. 

How would you describe the notion of 'competition'? Your take on it is the conventional, common-sense one. Yes, the league table at the end of the season doesn't lie. I agree with you here. Then there is the notion of 'Last Man Standing', yes? Knock-out competitions. Which is essentially what the final day turned out to be. And last season was not like every season, was it? It took place against the background of a pandemic.

 

Relegation permutations ahead of final round of Sky Bet Championship matches | BT Sport

What do Wycombe need to do to survive? Win 13-0 and hope Wednesday win by one goal at Derby.

Like that was ever going to happen. 13-0 away wins. (Well, they may happen the way the EFL are treating us, I fear for the morale of a squad desperate for additions)

"So, yes, the maddest thing".

Hmm, again, we seem to differ in our concept of madness. You seem to think what I suggest is mad? It's OK for Wigan to get relegated within the EFL framework due to a negligent owner, but elite clubs within a wider framework to flout rules (PSG, Man City) get a slap on the wrist, a fine/temp. ban on transfers and then spend £200m in another window, or report losses of £275m (Juventus)? Yes, it's another argument entirely, but maybe the entire game is mad altogether, a bizarre Tea Party out of Alice in Wonderland with Robbie Savage running around in midfield as the Mad Hatter.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Asanovic70
spelling

[Tamworthram]

2 hours ago, Asanovic70 said:

To be honest, if you think I'm mad, then I think you're unimaginative. Yes, to (a). The cynic in me thinks Paul Warne was also upset final day because results meant Rotherham would not even be in a position to benefit from any possible sanction against us (relegation) with the EFL charges/appeal still hanging over us. Wycombe's upturn in form in the last 11 is remarkable. How did they manage 6W when they could only manage 5 in 35? I think clubs at the bottom knew, going on from what happened with Barnsley, that finishing third from bottom could open that possibility.

I thought the entire schedule last season mad as the EFL was fixated in packing in 46 games, barely six weeks after the end of a curtailed season, within a set time frame, international breaks etc, with little room for flexibility.  Playing games over a short period of time does affect teams. Even half a day's advantage can matter in a tournament like the Euros (5live build up to Sweden/Ukraine). It's before my time, but Derby possibly benefited from Leeds playing on a Mon after the FA Cup win in 1972. 

How would you describe the notion of 'competition'? Your take on it is the conventional, common-sense one. Yes, the league table at the end of the season doesn't lie. I agree with you here. Then there is the notion of 'Last Man Standing', yes? Knock-out competitions. Which is essentially what the final day turned out to be. And last season was not like every season, was it? It took place against the background of a pandemic.

 

Relegation permutations ahead of final round of Sky Bet Championship matches | BT Sport

What do Wycombe need to do to survive? Win 13-0 and hope Wednesday win by one goal at Derby.

Like that was ever going to happen. 13-0 away wins. (Well, they may happen the way the EFL are treating us, I fear for the morale of a squad desperate for additions)

"So, yes, the maddest thing".

Hmm, again, we seem to differ in our concept of madness. You seem to think what I suggest is mad? It's OK for Wigan to get relegated within the EFL framework due to a negligent owner, but elite clubs within a wider framework to flout rules (PSG, Man City) get a slap on the wrist, a fine/temp. ban on transfers and then spend £200m in another window, or report losses of £275m (Juventus)? Yes, it's another argument entirely, but maybe the entire game is mad altogether, a bizarre Tea Party out of Alice in Wonderland with Robbie Savage running around in midfield as the Mad Hatter.

Why are you focusing entirely on the final round of games? Do the other 45 not count?

What I’m saying is it would be madness to consider saving Rotherham rather than Wycombe simply because Rotherham had a lot of games to play in a short period of time and had a chance to avoid the drop on the last day. It means you’d either be saying to Wycombe “forget about the rest of the season, because you didn’t have any real hope of staying up on the last day, we’re going to put Rotherham above you” or you’re saying to Rotherham “we know you didn’t accumulate enough points but, because you had to play a lot in a short period of time, we’ll give you enough bonus points to finish above Wycombe”.
 

Finally, what have Wigan, Man City, PSG, Juventus or Robbie Savage got to do with this little between who should be saved if we were to be relegated? Our little disagreement has taken a bizarre twist.

[SamUltraRam]

Taken from a post on the Wycombe messageboard today

"For what it's worth, a friend of mine who has friends within Derby's first team squad tells me they are all very concerned. The club aren't telling them anything, most of them think they're destined for League One this summer as a result and, given most of them have contracts which include significant pay cuts for relegation, they're almost in open mutiny. Wayne Rooney is being kept away from media over the Euros as they don't want him getting questions on Derby's plight..."

[Asanovic70]

TamworthRam,

No, it hasn't. You said keeping Rotherham up would be the maddest thing. Really? I pointed out that the entire football industry is bizarre then. We could get relegated - retrospective unlikely - in the next month yet elite clubs can bend/break rules, or accrue loses in the hundreds of millions (Juventus).

I'm focusing on the final round because - as said already - three sides had a realistic chance to survive the drop and one of them wasn't Wycombe unless they scored 13 goals. Yes, 13 goal away wins are the norm, you see them every week on Quest. They were as good as relegated in name by Matchday 45. And yet that is the side who may be ultimately reprieved. I've already explained myself at length. 

I've pointed out to you how Wycombe won 5 games in 35? Does that sound competitive to you taking into account a whole season?  Rotherham lost to Wycombe at home, so they only have themselves to blame, but this is a side who allegedly created as many chances as Watford (flagged up on Quest). My main bone of contention is that one side was affected by Covid, rightly or wrongly calling games off, (no further action taken by the EFL), another was not. This is a factor not taken into account by a league table.

I've given you examples about how a backlog of games can affect sides, or rest between games can help footballers recovery time.

Don't you think sides, like Wycombe, knew through the football grapevine that Derby could still be relegated,? The whole farce is also tinged with cynicism. 'We're all in it together, one big football family, the Championship.' No, it isn't if you can find a way, any way to circumvent things. 

Why is it madness? I think it's mad that you don't seem to be taking into account the fact that this season has not been like any normal season in recent history. 46 games played between mid Sep to early May?  Really?  Where was the provision for any possible Covid outbreaks to be rescheduled? There were none because the EFL happily wended on their way because they have to keep tv companies & the public happy & entertained, the former, in particular, as its paymaster, a source of revenue to clubs . Why do you think the government were happy to have football back rather than arts & culture? Because it kept a restive public entertained in a time of crisis. 'The show must go on'.

Football without fans - which, to be honest, I found as pointless as the point about Rotherham, in fairness,  some posters seem to think I am making. Broadcasters putting artificial effects/crowd noises to generate atmosphere in games that looked liked glorified friendlies. You don't think that's odd? 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Asanovic70

[Tamworthram]

30 minutes ago, Asanovic70 said:

TamworthRam,

No, it hasn't. You said keeping Rotherham up would be the maddest thing. Really? I pointed out that the entire football industry is bizarre then. We could get relegated - retrospective unlikely - in the next month yet elite clubs can bend/break rules, or accrue loses in the hundreds of millions (Juventus).

I'm focusing on the final round because - as said already - three sides had a realistic chance to survive the drop and one of them wasn't Wycombe unless they scored 13 goals. Yes, 13 goal away wins are the norm, you see them every week on Quest. They were as good as relegated in name by Matchday 45. And yet that is the side who may be ultimately reprieved. I've already explained myself at length. 

I've pointed out to you how Wycombe won 5 games in 35? Does that sound competitive to you taking into account a whole season?  Rotherham lost to Wycombe at home, so they only have themselves to blame, but this is a side who allegedly created as many chances as Watford (flagged up on Quest). My main bone of contention is that one side was affected by Covid, rightly or wrongly calling games off, (no further action taken by the EFL), another was not. This is a factor not taken into account by a league table.

I've given you examples about how a backlog of games can affect sides, or rest between games can help footballers recovery time.

Don't you think sides, like Wycombe, knew through the football grapevine that Derby could still be relegated,? The whole farce is also tinged with cynicism. 'We're all in it together, one big football family, the Championship.' No, it isn't if you can find a way, any way to circumvent things. 

Why is it madness? I think it's mad that you don't seem to be taking into account the fact that this season has not been like any normal season in recent history. 46 games played between mid Sep to early May?  Really?  Where was the provision for any possible Covid outbreaks to be rescheduled? There were none because the EFL happily wended on their way because they have to keep tv companies & the public happy & entertained, the former, in particular, as its paymaster, a source of revenue to clubs . Why do you think the government were happy to have football back rather than arts & culture? Because it kept a restive public entertained in a time of crisis. 'The show must go on'.

Football without fans - which, to be honest, I found as pointless as the point about Rotherham, in fairness,  some posters seem to think I am making. Broadcasters putting artificial effects/crowd noises to generate atmosphere in games that looked liked glorified friendlies. You don't think that's odd? 

 

I think you are either accidentally or deliberately missing my point.

I’m not disputing the fact that there are some crazy things going on in football or that it was tough on Rotherham. 
 

With regard to Wycombe being competitive, they still gained more points that Rotherham so what does that make Rotherham? 

One more time, what I am saying is that, if we were relegated, to retrospectively award Rotherham some more points (that’s effectively what you’d have to do to put them above Wycombe) for whatever reason would be madness.

Some of your other points including what an odd season it’s been and the other teams you have mentioned are perfectly valid but irrelevant to this argument.

[NottsRam77]

8 hours ago, Brammie Steve said:

Preying?

Good use of semantics!

Lots of non DCFC supporters are using every possible means at their disposal to prey on the Rams in the hope of totally destroying them by fair means and foul!

U would think we have more collectively to worry about than my misfiring autocorrect wouldn’t you lol

[NottsRam77]

10 hours ago, Oldben said:

Ultimately Derby need a working relationship with the efl.

It wasn't the fault of the efl, that Derby did the amortisation.

The real unfairness is the parachute payments to clubs relegated from the Premier league.

These payments make fair competition in the championship impossible.

So clubs who are not given an equal shout, take risks in an attempt to compete.

The efl want to be seen to have power.

At the moment the efl are reflecting on either taking points from the club, but with a transfer embargo on buying players and not paying high wages for free agents means Derby could be relegated next season instead of this. They have basically put Derby in a place where nothing works for them.

If Wycombe stay in the championship instead of Derby, Wycombe will be relegated next season, they don't have the fan levels of Derby nor the ability to fairly spend enough to compete with the other teams in the championship.

Wycombe are rubbish, don't see how they are meant to get better.

If Derby are relegated they will lose an estimated 10 million a year, as opposed to Wycombe 2 million a year.

If Derby are relegated, Mel could expect to sell Derby for 20 million, who would pay more.

Wycombe are estimated to be worth 7 million.

 

To quote 

“Derby did the amortisation”….. that the efl signed off for 3 years 

should be end of story really 

 

[NottsRam77]

Does anyone know how long the efl actually have got to appeal this latest result ?