F1 2021

[RadioactiveWaste]

2 hours ago, ziggyram59 said:

Really nice to see Lewis Hamilton receive his knighthood today. Well deserved. I think Lewis deserves to win the BBC Sports Personality Life Time Achievement Award for what he as achieved in Formula1. But knowing the BBC he won't. 

He has been incredible his whole career. He's started to use his position and influence to try and bring some good into the world. Top falleh. I do believe it's not really possible to compare across eras and say x was the GOAT, but of his era, Lewis has been the greatest and is one of the all time greats, he sits along side Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Lauda, Stewart, Clarke, Fangio (etc) in the pantheon of "you know, that bloke really was quite good at drivin"

 

 

[ziggyram59]

2 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

He has been incredible his whole career. He's started to use his position and influence to try and bring some good into the world. Top falleh. I do believe it's not really possible to compare across eras and say x was the GOAT, but of his era, Lewis has been the greatest and is one of the all time greats, he sits along side Senna, Prost, Schumacher, Lauda, Stewart, Clarke, Fangio (etc) in the pantheon of "you know, that bloke really was quite good at drivin"

 

 

RadioactiveWaste not old enough to remember Fangio and Clarke but to me Senna will always be the greatest F1 driver I've seen and in some ways Verstappen as a lot of his qualities. I would put Lewis around 4 in the greatest drivers behind Senna, Schumacher and Fangio. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

1 hour ago, ziggyram59 said:

RadioactiveWaste not old enough to remember Fangio and Clarke but to me Senna will always be the greatest F1 driver I've seen and in some ways Verstappen as a lot of his qualities. I would put Lewis around 4 in the greatest drivers behind Senna, Schumacher and Fangio. 

Senna, Mansell and Hill were my childhood heros (and one big villain). I'm also to young for Fangio, Stewart or Clarke, but without robbing a time machine and putting them all together who is better than who is just words.

I'd have Lewis in my top 3, not so much for the mercedes years of dominance, but those first years at McLaren (i mean he had Fernando on toast in his rookie season and many, myself included, rate Fernando as a driver who could have won far more then two titles).

Thinking about comapring across different eras, where does Vettel fit? He won 4 titles but then zip after the regulations changed, lewis won his first title and then didn't get one until the turbo hybrid regs came, dominated, then a change again next season, he may well never get another shot at no8.

[Rambam]

Mercedes withdraw their appeal. F1 Champions list updated…

[RadioactiveWaste]

https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-hamilton-intervenes-mercedes-appeal-report/

100% right thing from Lewis. Whatever the merits of the case, it would be deeply unsatisfactory to gain the title through the courts.

Let's hope the FIA follow through on actually making changes. Even if it's just stopping the teams lobbying race control for decisions that benefit them it'd be a start.

[Alph]

I'm glad. Nothing to gain really. 

But kicked up enough of a fuss and attention to draw sympathy/criticism/change. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

11 minutes ago, Alpha said:

I'm glad. Nothing to gain really. 

But kicked up enough of a fuss and attention to draw sympathy/criticism/change. 

I think they have to, to protect their product if nothing else - anyone who isn't particularly a Motorsport/F1 fan but watched Abu Dhabi will have seen "the guy who totally deserved to win that got screwed, this sport sucks"

[ziggyram59]

I'm glad Mercedes have withdrawn there complaint. Max is a fantastic driver and deserves to win the championship over the season he as had. Moving onto next season the FIA and stewards and Massi need more clarity to every team with regards to rules so we don't have the farce of a controversial end to a season again. It would be great if we could get the likes of Ferrari and McLaren fighting it out with Red Bull and Mercedes for the championship next season. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

4 minutes ago, ziggyram59 said:

I'm glad Mercedes have withdrawn there complaint. Max is a fantastic driver and deserves to win the championship over the season he as had. Moving onto next season the FIA and stewards and Massi need more clarity to every team with regards to rules so we don't have the farce of a controversial end to a season again. It would be great if we could get the likes of Ferrari and McLaren fighting it out with Red Bull and Mercedes for the championship next season. 

Major regulation changes always shake things up a bit (BrawnGP anyone?) - it's going to be very interesting to see which of the contenders gets things right out of the box and which are playing catch up. It's certainly an oportunity for McLaren and Ferrari to jump forward. If i was to tip one it'd be Ferrari, they've sorted their engine quite well now. It'll also be interesting to see how Aston Martin, Alpine and Williams do, and Alpha Tauri for that matter.

Aston Martin, the copycat Merc stuff might not be as helpful as before, but Mr Stroll is investing in the team a lot so his kid can be an F1 driver. WIlliams also have significant mercedes technical partnership but nowhere near the Stroll connection. I'm hopefull for Williams under their new ownership.

Alpha Tauri, as the red bull DNA if *cough* strong in the AT team, again, will the copycat stuff be quite as helpful under the big reg change?

Alpine and McLaren are teams that do most of their design in house so very interesting if McLaren get it right and are punching up, or wrong and slip back, and the same with Alpine from a little further back. Alpine for me did the best job improving their car over the year.

Of course, whichever of Merc or RBR get it best out the box, that advantage unless there's a terminal problem with the design isn't going to last - the way mercedes optimised their car this season was very impressive.

For saying all that, we'll probably get to pre-season testing and find Mercedes 2 seconds clear of everyone and decide F1 has reverted to type after this season which has been glorious.

[Gaspode]

5 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Major regulation changes always shake things up a bit (BrawnGP anyone?) - it's going to be very interesting to see which of the contenders gets things right out of the box and which are playing catch up. It's certainly an oportunity for McLaren and Ferrari to jump forward. If i was to tip one it'd be Ferrari, they've sorted their engine quite well now. It'll also be interesting to see how Aston Martin, Alpine and Williams do, and Alpha Tauri for that matter.

Aston Martin, the copycat Merc stuff might not be as helpful as before, but Mr Stroll is investing in the team a lot so his kid can be an F1 driver. WIlliams also have significant mercedes technical partnership but nowhere near the Stroll connection. I'm hopefull for Williams under their new ownership.

Alpha Tauri, as the red bull DNA if *cough* strong in the AT team, again, will the copycat stuff be quite as helpful under the big reg change?

Alpine and McLaren are teams that do most of their design in house so very interesting if McLaren get it right and are punching up, or wrong and slip back, and the same with Alpine from a little further back. Alpine for me did the best job improving their car over the year.

Of course, whichever of Merc or RBR get it best out the box, that advantage unless there's a terminal problem with the design isn't going to last - the way mercedes optimised their car this season was very impressive.

For saying all that, we'll probably get to pre-season testing and find Mercedes 2 seconds clear of everyone and decide F1 has reverted to type after this season which has been glorious.

Toto suggesting that Hamilton might not race again after last weekend - he’s clearly deeply upset with the way the race result was manipulated and feels that the authorities were unfair to him by handing the victory and the Championship to Max. It may just be a ploy to force them into fixing some of the main issues that have been apparent but if there really is a chance Lewis walks away then F1 really have shot themselves in the foot…..

[RadioactiveWaste]

9 minutes ago, Gaspode said:

Toto suggesting that Hamilton might not race again after last weekend - he’s clearly deeply upset with the way the race result was manipulated and feels that the authorities were unfair to him by handing the victory and the Championship to Max. It may just be a ploy to force them into fixing some of the main issues that have been apparent but if there really is a chance Lewis walks away then F1 really have shot themselves in the foot…..

Yes I saw that earlier. It would be a very unsatisfying way to end. And as much as in public Max would probably say "he retired because I ebat him" in private he'll know why. I think Max would love to race to against Lewis next year, if max wins a second vs lewis, he'll consider his point proved. I also don't think anyone on the grid apart from Lewis is close to Max's level. Leclerc and Russell might get close but that's still potential more than hear and now.

It's really in Lewis' court if he wants to continue, and if he's not 100% i think he'll retire (or race WEC for a year or two or something). I'd hate for a 70% Lewis to be doing it for the money, or because he doesn't know what else to do.

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

It's really in Lewis' court if he wants to continue, and if he's not 100% i think he'll retire (or race WEC for a year or two or something). I'd hate for a 70% Lewis to be doing it for the money, or because he doesn't know what else to do.

Of course it's Lewis's choice. It's not like Toto would demand he honour his contract and the FIA and Liberty will get short shrift from both Lewis and the team should they even attempt to wield influence. 

As for Lewis going racing in another format, I can't see that at all. He's a 7 (8 in many fans' minds) time F1 WDC holder - where would he go and what would be the challenge? It's not going to happen IMO. He may start a Formula E series team which would align with his ethos and allow him to promote other young BAME prospects, but even that seems a stretch. He's already pretty busy and successful in other arenas, so he won't need to be playing lip-service to Sky et al like Rosberg and co., that much is certain. He certainly doesn't need F1 as much as F1 needs him. Not at all.

Suffice to say that the FIA have managed to turn a season for the ages into an utter shitshow and may now be reminded that the likes of Hamilton and Wolff owe them nothing. If Hamilton walks, Liberty will see a 30%+++ fall in viewing numbers overnight, so the plan to manipulate the series to increase interest will have backfired in spectacular fashion. If Mercedes decide they no longer wish to invest in and support the series, it's effectively good night Vienna, for the foreseeable at least. This won't be forgiven or forgotten, that much is assured. 

As for the the early season rumours that other German giants like Volkswagen (read Audi) and Porsche were considering joining the circus, well you can kiss that goodbye. Let's be honest here, a new golden age of F1 has just died on its arse and the sport's guardians have nobody to blame but themselves.

[Rev]

4 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

As for the the early season rumours that other German giants like Volkswagen (read Audi) and Porsche were considering joining the circus, well you can kiss that goodbye.

I think recent events will smooth VW's path into the sport, rather than deter them.

I suspect some horse trading has gone on behind the scenes in the last few days, Toto using the leverage he suddenly has to shape F1's future to align with his own ideas.

The exhaust gas recirculation system will go, which will remove the major barrier for VW, and we'll see a tighter cost cap on spending, probably based on historic performance and participation, which will please Mercedes and the other legacy outfits, such as Ferrari, Williams etc, while keeping the new Audi entrant in its place for a few seasons.

The rules around racing will be made black and white, which should have been the case anyway.

Lewis will hopefully take a month off, do whatever he does to chill, then start to get the itchy feeling to go racing again.

 

[TigerTedd]

23 minutes ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Of course it's Lewis's choice. It's not like Toto would demand he honour his contract and the FIA and Liberty will get short shrift from both Lewis and the team should they even attempt to wield influence. 

As for Lewis going racing in another format, I can't see that at all. He's a 7 (8 in many fans' minds) time F1 WDC holder - where would he go and what would be the challenge? It's not going to happen IMO. He may start a Formula E series team which would align with his ethos and allow him to promote other young BAME prospects, but even that seems a stretch. He's already pretty busy and successful in other arenas, so he won't need to be playing lip-service to Sky et al like Rosberg and co., that much is certain. He certainly doesn't need F1 as much as F1 needs him. Not at all.

Suffice to say that the FIA have managed to turn a season for the ages into an utter shitshow and may now be reminded that the likes of Hamilton and Wolff owe them nothing. If Hamilton walks, Liberty will see a 30%+++ fall in viewing numbers overnight, so the plan to manipulate the series to increase interest will have backfired in spectacular fashion. If Mercedes decide they no longer wish to invest in and support the series, it's effectively good night Vienna, for the foreseeable at least. This won't be forgiven or forgotten, that much is assured. 

As for the the early season rumours that other German giants like Volkswagen (read Audi) and Porsche were considering joining the circus, well you can kiss that goodbye. Let's be honest here, a new golden age of F1 has just died on its arse and the sport's guardians have nobody to blame but themselves.

Yep, definitely shot themselves in the foot. Had Lewis won, then they had next years script all worked out. If you liked this season, we’re going to do it all again next season, can Max come back at Hamilton, will Hamilton back off a bit now he’s got number 8, or will he be as hungry as ever for number 9. So many reasons to watch next season. 

mid Hamilton quits it’s what, Max vs LeClerc. They’re back to square one. 

[RadioactiveWaste]

1 hour ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

Of course it's Lewis's choice. It's not like Toto would demand he honour his contract and the FIA and Liberty will get short shrift from both Lewis and the team should they even attempt to wield influence. 

As for Lewis going racing in another format, I can't see that at all. He's a 7 (8 in many fans' minds) time F1 WDC holder - where would he go and what would be the challenge? It's not going to happen IMO. He may start a Formula E series team which would align with his ethos and allow him to promote other young BAME prospects, but even that seems a stretch. He's already pretty busy and successful in other arenas, so he won't need to be playing lip-service to Sky et al like Rosberg and co., that much is certain. He certainly doesn't need F1 as much as F1 needs him. Not at all.

Suffice to say that the FIA have managed to turn a season for the ages into an utter shitshow and may now be reminded that the likes of Hamilton and Wolff owe them nothing. If Hamilton walks, Liberty will see a 30%+++ fall in viewing numbers overnight, so the plan to manipulate the series to increase interest will have backfired in spectacular fashion. If Mercedes decide they no longer wish to invest in and support the series, it's effectively good night Vienna, for the foreseeable at least. This won't be forgiven or forgotten, that much is assured. 

As for the the early season rumours that other German giants like Volkswagen (read Audi) and Porsche were considering joining the circus, well you can kiss that goodbye. Let's be honest here, a new golden age of F1 has just died on its arse and the sport's guardians have nobody to blame but themselves.

I could see Lewis having a go at winning le mans after he retires from F1. Can't see him doing indi or rallying unless it's a "because I was board" level of entry (Michael Schumacher did a few German superbike races the first time he retired because he missed the thrill).

You're right,I could see him starting a team of some form. Probably not Formula E though, I think some of the bigger players are pulling out of the series (and, tbh I think it sucks - a better electric vehicle series will replace it at some point)

[Comrade 86]

21 minutes ago, Rev said:

I think recent events will smooth VW's path into the sport, rather than deter them.

I suspect some horse trading has gone on behind the scenes in the last few days, Toto using the leverage he suddenly has to shape F1's future to align with his own ideas.

The exhaust gas recirculation system will go, which will remove the major barrier for VW, and we'll see a tighter cost cap on spending, probably based on historic performance and participation, which will please Mercedes and the other legacy outfits, such as Ferrari, Williams etc, while keeping the new Audi entrant in its place for a few seasons.

The rules around racing will be made black and white, which should have been the case anyway.

Lewis will hopefully take a month off, do whatever he does to chill, then start to get the itchy feeling to go racing again.

 

I find it hard to believe too but my post concerned the what if scenario. Lewis could just as easily take a month off and think duck it, who needs to weigh and calorie count every meal, work out for hours every day and do endless media work to promote a sport that just dry-humped me live on TV? He's got other interests aplenty as we all know.

The rest all sounds wonderful and yes, the technical change you alluded too is in the 2022 tech regs document, but the sport has pretty much always funded teams on performance, indeed that is how the status quo is maintained, so that's not a meaningful change IMO.

Likewise, cost caps are all too easily circumnavigated especially for teams owned by the commercial giants and are only mooted to give the impression that that governance is looking out for the small guy. Let's be honest here, that's just smoke and mirrors and limiting new entrants spend in their race to catch up with the likes of Mercedes and Ferrari is not the greatest incentive either. F1 media outlets want us to believe otherwise but time will tell.

And does the way the series just ended instil confidence that the huge investment required to even compete will be worthwhile? Thus far, there's little more than speculation that Porsche or Audi marques will grace the grid in 2025 and I can't see how what's just happened will encourage them. Attending a few working groups in an attempt to get a marker down is a long walk from signing a contract to race. I'd love to see it happen, but I'll believe it when the lawyers come to the table, rather than just the engineers. I can see them supplying engines for sure, but that's a different proposition altogether.

As for the racing rules, in terms of the safety car fiasco, it's hard to see how they could be made any more black and white than they already are. Perhaps driver standards can be clarified but that aside, what are we really suggesting here?

As for Toto shaping the sport, it you mean technically then that might work for 2023 onwards but my pal is one of the chief mould makers at Mercedes and tells me the 2022 car is already well down the line. Perhaps I'm missing your point though?

I dunno, maybe I'm just pissy over the way the sport is being run, but I know a lot of serious and long-term fans who are set to walk away if F1 does not clean house and I personally do not see a rosy future without Hamilton to go wheel to wheel with Verstappen. Where's the competition? We'd be relying almost exclusively on George Russell.

A lot of if's but's and maybe's I know but this has left a bad taste.

[RadioactiveWaste]

If you were looking to get into F1 the easiest thing to do would be:

1. Buy Haas

2. Fire Gunther

3. New logo

But that wouldn't cut it if your VW group. Reanult have that relationship with third team and keep quitting then coming back.

[Rev]

8 hours ago, 86 Hair Islands said:

As for the racing rules, in terms of the safety car fiasco, it's hard to see how they could be made any more black and white than they already are. Perhaps driver standards can be clarified but that aside, what are we really suggesting here?

As for Toto shaping the sport, it you mean technically then that might work for 2023 onwards but my pal is one of the chief mould makers at Mercedes and tells me the 2022 car is already well down the line. Perhaps I'm missing your point though?

In terms of shaping the future, I'm thinking of a few years down the line, when the new engine regs come in. 

The rules are black and white, but the powers of the race directors to override them as they see fit need to be removed. Hiding behind the safety of the Marshall's as an excuse was unacceptable, especially given the recent past of Motorsport. 

Masi took the director part of his job description too literally last season, but I'd argue his biggest mistake was Spa.

You can't make a decision like that, then snap back at Toto that we're going motor racing when it suits you.

[Duracell]

Despite what happened, I actually feel for Masi a little bit. F1 used to be about big personalities doing the jobs of a few different people, like Bernie and Charlie Whiting.

There's too much data, too much riding on it now, and the world is too open for us still to rely on one human to make such big calls, rather than relying on a process and a system. Masi had a few minutes to make a call at his discretion, and there's no way he made that huge mistake with anything other than the best intentions - but human error is way more likely when you put someone in that position.

 

[Day]

1 minute ago, Duracell said:

Despite what happened, I actually feel for Masi a little bit. F1 used to be about big personalities doing the jobs of a few different people, like Bernie and Charlie Whiting.

There's too much data, too much riding on it now, and the world is too open for us still to rely on one human to make such big calls, rather than relying on a process and a system. Masi had a few minutes to make a call at his discretion, and there's no way he made that huge mistake with anything other than the best intentions - but human error is way more likely when you put someone in that position.

Do you think he's the right man for the job?

I don't disagree it was anything other than best intentions, however to change the call in the space of 1 lap tells me he caved under pressure on the comms from Red Bull. You can't do that.

I don't see how he can stay on, a change is needed for the slate to be wiped clean for next season.

Also think teams shouldn't be able to communicate directly with the race director at all during the race. One way comms only, from the RD to teams when needed.

Anything else should be dealt with after the race.