The coronabrexit thread. I mean, coronavirus thread

[PistoldPete]

3 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

I’d like someone to say this guy’s a crackpot and talking nonsense! 

He is a crackpot and talking nonsense. He has been banned by youtube.

[PistoldPete]

4 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Covid is clearly going to account for a large number.

Do you not think that people having very little if any access to medical facilities is also going to have led to a sizeable number of deaths?

People not having access to hospitals will cost some people their lives. Were you not also saying 40% of people with COVID have tested positive since admission. And catching COVID isnt the only thing that can go wrong if you go into hospital. So it can work the other way for some too.  

[Eddie]

4 hours ago, G STAR RAM said:

Covid is clearly going to account for a large number.

Do you not think that people having very little if any access to medical facilities is also going to have led to a sizeable number of deaths?

Of course I think that is the case. If more people are utilising the NHS resources because they have Covid-19, that means that there are going to be fewer resources available for those requiring hospitalisation for other reasons because the facilities are a finite pot. The deaths of people unable to obtain treatment for whatever reason (slow ambulance response, lack of beds, scared to actually go to A&E because of scare stories) could, in many circumstances, be considered in some cases to be indirectly caused by Covid-19.

[G STAR RAM]

22 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

People not having access to hospitals will cost some people their lives. Were you not also saying 40% of people with COVID have tested positive since admission. And catching COVID isnt the only thing that can go wrong if you go into hospital. So it can work the other way for some too.  

The actual stat is 40% of people being recorded as in hospital with Covid are not primarily being treated for Covid.

[PistoldPete]

14 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

The actual stat is 40% of people being recorded as in hospital with Covid are not primarily being treated for Covid.

Where is it described in that way? 

[maxjam]

50 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Where is it described in that way? 

I could google it for you myself and dunno find various articles in the media saying similar to following Guardian headline, 'Nearly 40% of Covid hospital cases in England now patients primarily being treated for something else, latest figures show'.  Or I could point you to the https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/ website where you can download the data and find it youself.

But its probably more fun and visually appealing to post this from your favourite analyst ?

 

[G STAR RAM]

57 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

Where is it described in that way? 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10378437/Covid-19-UK-Nearly-40-NHS-Covid-patients-not-treated-virus-official-data-shows.html

[PistoldPete]

35 minutes ago, maxjam said:

I could google it for you myself and dunno find various articles in the media saying similar to following Guardian headline, 'Nearly 40% of Covid hospital cases in England now patients primarily being treated for something else, latest figures show'.  Or I could point you to the https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas/covid-19-hospital-activity/ website where you can download the data and find it youself.

But its probably more fun and visually appealing to post this from your favourite analyst ?

 

So it is described by Jenkins as "primarily being tearted for other thinsg but have tested positive " but the actual source , the NHS says 

"Shows the number of patients admitted in previous 24 hours where patient known to have COVID-19 plus patients diagnosed in hospital with COVID-19 in previous 24 hours"

 

I decsribed it as the NHS has and wthout the twist given by Jenkins.

[Andrew3000]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

 

Don't like this kind of comment, full of contempt and condemnation. Lacks any empathy or imagination. When you are well and being heavily pressurised to do something you don't trust that you fear might compromise your health unnecessarily that's one thing; to be seriously ill and out of control is quite another.  Who else do they resent treating;  what other people who made a decision that didn't work out do they judge similarly? 

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, Andrew3000 said:

Don't like this kind of comment, full of contempt and condemnation. Lacks any empathy or imagination. When you are well and being heavily pressurised to do something you don't trust that you fear might compromise your health unnecessarily that's one thing; to be seriously ill and out of control is quite another.  Who else do they resent treating;  what other people who made a decision that didn't work out do they judge similarly? 

Your empathy appears totally one-sided. What do you think these NHS staff members have had to deal with? Plus there isn't any resentment apparent just irony! 

[Dean (hick) Saunders]

Everyone (well most) on here are entrenched in their position. Guess that’s modern life, but I don’t think it would hurt seeing as it we are bothering to spend time on a chat/forum to see stuff from different perspectives.

[maxjam]

20 minutes ago, PistoldPete said:

So it is described by Jenkins as "primarily being tearted for other thinsg but have tested positive " but the actual source , the NHS says 

"Shows the number of patients admitted in previous 24 hours where patient known to have COVID-19 plus patients diagnosed in hospital with COVID-19 in previous 24 hours"

 

I decsribed it as the NHS has and wthout the twist given by Jenkins.

From the NHS website;

Monthly publication of COVID-19 data

The publication covers:

- the number of patients in hospital with Covid including those in mechanical ventilation

- the number of patients admitted to hospital with Covid

- the number of patients diagnosed in hospital with Covid

- the number of patients discharged from hospital

- staffing absences

And the further down the page;

'The majority of inpatients with Covid-19 are admitted as a result of the infection. A subset of those who contract Covid in the community and are asymptomatic, or exhibited relatively mild symptoms that on their own are unlikely to warrant admission to hospital, will then be admitted to hospital to be treated for something else and be identified through routine testing.'

And this

'The headline published numbers in publications to date have been “inpatients with confirmed Covid” without differentiating between those in hospital “for” Covid and those in hospital “with” Covid. Recognising the combination of high community infections rates, with the reduced likelihood of admission for those who contract Covid in the community and are fully vaccinated, the Covid SitRep was enhanced in June 2021 to add a requirement for providers to distinguish between those being primarily treated ‘for’ Covid and those ‘with’ Covid but for whom the primary reason for being in hospital was non-Covid related. In practice this distinction is not always clear at the point of admission when the patient’s record has not been fully clinically coded. In light of this, trusts have been asked to provide this “for” and “with” split on a ‘best endeavours’ basis.'

In short, there are 2 distinct categories of people in hospital with covid - those that are being treated for covid and the 37%-45% of those on hospital with mild covid being treated for something else.  It appears to me that Jamie Jenkins is spot on with his analysis.  Again.

[Andrew3000]

35 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Your empathy appears totally one-sided. What do you think these NHS staff members have had to deal with? Plus there isn't any resentment apparent just irony! 

So what is the motivation to make the 'ironic' comment? Likelynto be resentment. Now of course, if you are over-worked,stressed and maybe even traumatised, you are in a threat focused mental state and will blame others. I have no difficulty empathising with that, however as a professional clinician it would help to be mindful of this.   furthermore, having worked in the NHS, I appreciate that mis-management and underfunding of services are a major issue. Maybe my issue should more be with the people who share this kind of comment. It comes across as smugly enjoying the suffering of the patient, to score a point. Not pleasant.

None of us should be so arrogant as assume we are so sure about what is the right course of action. There are major ethical dilemmas here and all some of us want is to promote critical analysis in the face of a dominant view that claims to know best.

Edited January 9, 2022 by Andrew3000

[Andrew3000]

3 hours ago, PistoldPete said:

He is a crackpot and talking nonsense. He has been banned by youtube.

Being banned by YouTube is proof of lack of credibility? How are they qualified to judge? Are we happy with this kind of censorship? Not a good development.

[RoyMac5]

19 minutes ago, Andrew3000 said:

So what is the motivation to make the 'ironic' comment? Likelynto be resentment. Now of course, if you are over-worked,stressed and maybe even traumatised, you are in a threat focused mental state and will blame others. I have no difficulty empathising with that, however as a professional clinician it would help to be mindful of this.   furthermore, having worked in the NHS, I appreciate that mis-management and underfunding of services are a major issue. Maybe my issue should more be with the people who share this kind of comment. It comes across as smugly enjoying the suffering of the patient, to score a point. Not pleasant.

None of us should be so arrogant as assume we are so sure about what is the right course of action. There are major ethical dilemmas here and all some of us want is to promote critical analysis in the face of a dominant view that claims to know best.

You assume so much of others you come over as extremely arrogant. ?

[Andrew3000]

5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

You assume so much of others you come over as extremely arrogant. ?

Haven't assumed anything, just expressed my feelings about this kind of comment, questioned some motives and proposed some possibilities.  Possibly I go come across arrogant at times, but I try not to and wouldn't want to.  

[Rev]

I guess we can only judge things as we find them ourselves.

This afternoon, I went to a pub for a nephew's birthday party. Chock full of people, not a mask in site, no sign of any virus altering the lives of anyone present.

On the way home, I called in to see my parents.

My mum hasn't been upstairs for 2 months now, as she can't handle the stairs with her arthritis, so sleeps on the settee downstairs. That's a long standing problem, gets worse this time of year for obvious reasons, but can't access the help she needs because of Covid.

My dad retired 2 years ago, just before Covid first arrived, as mobile and healthy as any then 76 year old could be.

I posted on here just after the first lockdown about his decline in health, and how I didn't think he'd survive long, the period since has been no kinder. His legs are so swollen he can barely move, his G.P. referred him to hospital back then, and he's still awaiting an appointment!

If they were to die tomorrow, it won't be of Covid, but it certainly would be because of it.

 

 

[i-Ram]

5 minutes ago, Rev said:

I guess we can only judge things as we find them ourselves.

This afternoon, I went to a pub for a nephew's birthday party. Chock full of people, not a mask in site, no sign of any virus altering the lives of anyone present.

On the way home, I called in to see my parents.

My mum hasn't been upstairs for 2 months now, as she can't handle the stairs with her arthritis, so sleeps on the settee downstairs. That's a long standing problem, gets worse this time of year for obvious reasons, but can't access the help she needs because of Covid.

My dad retired 2 years ago, just before Covid first arrived, as mobile and healthy as any then 76 year old could be.

I posted on here just after the first lockdown about his decline in health, and how I didn't think he'd survive long, the period since has been no kinder. His legs are so swollen he can barely move, his G.P. referred him to hospital back then, and he's still awaiting an appointment!

If they were to die tomorrow, it won't be of Covid, but it certainly would be because of it.

It really is no time to be frail and infirm. I hope your visit gave them a lift ?

[Rev]

3 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

It really is no time to be frail and infirm. I hope your visit gave them a lift ?

First time in 2 years they've seen their Grandson, so that was lovely.

[Eddie]

39 minutes ago, Andrew3000 said:

So what is the motivation to make the 'ironic' comment? Likelynto be resentment. Now of course, if you are over-worked,stressed and maybe even traumatised, you are in a threat focused mental state and will blame others. I have no difficulty empathising with that, however as a professional clinician it would help to be mindful of this.   furthermore, having worked in the NHS, I appreciate that mis-management and underfunding of services are a major issue. Maybe my issue should more be with the people who share this kind of comment. It comes across as smugly enjoying the suffering of the patient, to score a point. Not pleasant.

None of us should be so arrogant as assume we are so sure about what is the right course of action. There are major ethical dilemmas here and all some of us want is to promote critical analysis in the face of a dominant view that claims to know best.

My guess: From the nurse's perspective, utter frustration, having been working under pressure for almost two years trying to save lives during the (to date) seventh-most deadly pandemic in world history, the last year of said pandemic being where numerous vaccines which have a huge benefit in preventing serious illness and death were available - yet still there are more than 10% of the population still unvaccinated.

Of course, the poster may well have been, as you are suggesting, trying to 'score a point' or 'win the internet' - perhaps even making up the comment to serve that purpose.