Gamesmanship

[Carl Sagan]

Great thread @ram59. I've thought this a long time and it's why so many decisions go against us. It's the ref's taking the easy way out because they know we won't give them a hard time. There's a disappointing lack of pragmatism in many replies.

[Dimmu]

One of the reasons to hate the state of the game currently.

 

[Mucker1884]

11 hours ago, jono said:

Yes ! I’d much rather see the cheats outed by laughter, derision and critism in general rather than urging us to be less sportsman like. .. TV pundits need to up their game ., saying hey ho that’s the game is not right .. it dereliction of duty, its being complicit in wrongdoing . They should be adopting the same intolerance for this as they do for even racism or genuinely violent conduct or intimidation. It is not sport. It’s wrong 

Have to agree... But in this Oh-So PC world of ours, I fear the fine lines!

I'm sure there are at least some pundits out there that would very much like to bring some of these antics out into the open, but accusing someone of out and out cheating, without clear and unequivocal proof, could quite conceivably lead to court action, I guess?  Or at least the sack (for the pundit, not the player!)  Even with cameras and replays, it's very difficult to prove "What a player was thinking" or whether a player really was in pain!

... And then there's the fine line between what part of gamesmanship is acceptable, and what is deemed as taking things too far.
Whilst the rolling around squealing is an obvious one, as is the shirt pulling and many others, what about a straightforward arm in the air and an "Our Ball!" claim, every time the ball goes out for a throw-in or corner?  Is that not an attempt to influence a refs decision?  I'd wager every single one of us have done that, either as a player or a spectator... or both!

It needs something, but I'm not sure whether we'll actually see a change, unfortunately.  

 

 

[Sith Happens]

15 hours ago, Ruud Aralliss said:

If a player stays down and the opposition’s play is stopped, personally I think the player should be sidelined for at least 5 minutes.  Stopping play for an apparent head injury should be 10 minutes.  The manager can always make a substitution.  
It’s all too common that we see players curled up a ball completely motionless until play is stopped only to sprint back on the pitch seconds later. 
A ridiculous idea, I know but the blatant cheating is spiralling out of control. The screaming is another level, last week I saw a player let out a blood curdling scream as he rolled over the touchline only to look up, realise play had not stopped, jumped up and jogged off, hilarious ?.

I agree, i think the having to leave the pitch following treatment was a step towards this, but there is no detriment as they are waved back on immediately anwyay, its farcicle.

If a rule was introduced that if you require treatment then a 5 min spell from the time the game restarts is required it might make those feigning injury rethink.

If you are seriously injured enough to require treatment, having 5 minutes out shouldnt be the primary concern.

Of course i know if they did introduce it, there would be those who argue that the team who committed the foul have benefitted twice...so its a difficult one.

[Sith Happens]

Not cheating as such, but the number of times you see timewasting on throw ins...one player feighs to take it, then gives it another player.

Bring in a rule, the first player to touch the ball with their hands takes the throw in...

[Mucker1884]

34 minutes ago, Sith Happens said:

Not cheating as such, but the number of times you see timewasting on throw ins...one player feighs to take it, then gives it another player.

Bring in a rule, the first player to touch the ball with their hands takes the throw in...

But then the time wasting transfers to the time between the ball going out and someone picking it up.  Nobody fetches the ball.  Nobody approaches the ball boy/girl to accept the ball.  Everyone saunters away from the point where the ball went out.  etc, etc.  The ref cannot (currently) force a specific individual to take the throw-in.

Of course, it's always good to find a way to improve things, but most new innovative ideas just get counteracted with new innovative ways to cheat the system!

Remember when keepers had 6 seconds to get rid?  Now, they don't catch it, but parry it down on to the ground, and wait for the forward to approach them before bending down at the last second to pick it up.  Pass backs to the keeper were banned... so now the defender chests or heads it back.  That's just two of the many examples of "Playing to the new rules"!

[jono]

1 hour ago, Mucker1884 said:

Have to agree... But in this Oh-So PC world of ours, I fear the fine lines!

I'm sure there are at least some pundits out there that would very much like to bring some of these antics out into the open, but accusing someone of out and out cheating, without clear and unequivocal proof, could quite conceivably lead to court action, I guess?  Or at least the sack (for the pundit, not the player!)  Even with cameras and replays, it's very difficult to prove "What a player was thinking" or whether a player really was in pain!

... And then there's the fine line between what part of gamesmanship is acceptable, and what is deemed as taking things too far.
Whilst the rolling around squealing is an obvious one, as is the shirt pulling and many others, what about a straightforward arm in the air and an "Our Ball!" claim, every time the ball goes out for a throw-in or corner?  Is that not an attempt to influence a refs decision?  I'd wager every single one of us have done that, either as a player or a spectator... or both!

It needs something, but I'm not sure whether we'll actually see a change, unfortunately.  

 

 

You are so right. With every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. I guess it could start with something as simple as managers stating openly that the want players to stay on their feet and play it straight, but it’s difficult unless it’s universal. It’s has always been there, always will be but it’s the everyday normality and acceptance of it that I find so galling

[Mucker1884]

3 minutes ago, jono said:

You are so right...

 

Say no more, mate!

"Less is more", as they say.

??

[Spanish]

1 hour ago, Sith Happens said:

Not cheating as such, but the number of times you see timewasting on throw ins...one player feighs to take it, then gives it another player.

Bring in a rule, the first player to touch the ball with their hands takes the throw in...

And that it should take place where the ball went out of play, not signify the starting point for a 5 metre run.  

[uttoxram75]

40 minutes ago, Spanish said:

And that it should take place where the ball went out of play, not signify the starting point for a 5 metre run.  

There was one the other night where the Watford lad stole 20 yards. Why can't the ref or linesman use the squirty cream thing. If the thrower goes beyond that its awarded the other way.

[Spanish]

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

There was one the other night where the Watford lad stole 20 yards. Why can't the ref or linesman use the squirty cream thing. If the thrower goes beyond that its awarded the other way.

The linesmen only cover half of the pitch, I have thought of it but it really doesn't matter if they steal a metre it's the bloody obvious ones that everybody can see that need stamping down on, guess refs have been told to be lenient.  I agree if it was easy to foam the spot then it would be best for everyone.  At the moment it doesn't seem to matter that they are standing inside the line.  I know it sounds grumpy old git but it is probably the most often method of restarting play

 

[Steve Buckley’s Dog]

1 hour ago, uttoxram75 said:

There was one the other night where the Watford lad stole 20 yards. Why can't the ref or linesman use the squirty cream thing. If the thrower goes beyond that its awarded the other way.

Glad someone else noticed that. Second half and ball goes out right by the corner flag. I am sure next to the linesman. Next thing you know the throw in is taken just past the edge of the penalty area. Ref yards away and happy with it. Watford TV commentators on sky were happy with it. I was beginning to think I had imagined it. 

[AndyinLiverpool]

This is all rather distasteful.

We don't try to getopponents sent off? Good.

[Grumpy Git]

Off topic, but relating to throw-ins, etc.

1. We never ever take a throw-in quickly, in fact it's embarrassing sometimes how long it takes (only to give the ball to the oppo anyway).

2. Marshall on picking-up the ball usually rushes to the edge of his area like a madman.................... but NEVER EVER releases the ball quickly, it's pathetic to watch.

3. I might feel less grumpy when I've had my lunch?

[rainram]

There is a lot of talk about players not respecting the officials, use of bad language etc. Yet in the recent game against Middlesboro, Warnock could cleary be heard giving the fourth official loads of earache and swearing. If the managers are behaving in a disrespectable manner what chance the players? Cheating or as managers call it, bending the rules is sadly become a normal aspect of the game in general. it is very frustrating watching defenders throw themselves to the ground if they are boxed in or strikers looking for a foul in a promising position rather than getting a shot in.

[jono]

5 hours ago, uttoxram75 said:

There was one the other night where the Watford lad stole 20 yards. Why can't the ref or linesman use the squirty cream thing. If the thrower goes beyond that its awarded the other way.

Now that is a good idea ! Mark it and it needs to be no more than a stride forward of the mark otherwise foul throw .. job done

[jono]

2 hours ago, rainram said:

There is a lot of talk about players not respecting the officials, use of bad language etc. Yet in the recent game against Middlesboro, Warnock could cleary be heard giving the fourth official loads of earache and swearing. If the managers are behaving in a disrespectable manner what chance the players? Cheating or as managers call it, bending the rules is sadly become a normal aspect of the game in general. it is very frustrating watching defenders throw themselves to the ground if they are boxed in or strikers looking for a foul in a promising position rather than getting a shot in.

I am not sure what created it but you make a solid point. It has to be in part, about application of the rules.

so a striker fights for the ball and it gets aggressive and he is penalised .. or vice versa for the defender .. You can see in those circumstances it is easier to play the “victim” to gain an advantage ?  Interesting philosophical debate to be had ! 
 

[jono]

3 hours ago, Grumpy Git said:

Off topic, but relating to throw-ins, etc.

1. We never ever take a throw-in quickly, in fact it's embarrassing sometimes how long it takes (only to give the ball to the oppo anyway).

2. Marshall on picking-up the ball usually rushes to the edge of his area like a madman.................... but NEVER EVER releases the ball quickly, it's pathetic to watch.

3. I might feel less grumpy when I've had my lunch?

I don’t disagree but one thing I have noticed with Rooney in charge is that we are much better at throw ins. Players do move and shape up to receive it .. yeah we need to up the pace and use the fact that the ball is ours but I honestly think we are getting better in that aspect. We were hopeless with Lampard, Cocu and others ..never hungry or aggressive enough 

[Norman]

Against Wycombe, scores level, the ball bounced against Wycombe's corner flag and out for a throw-in. 

We allowed the taker to stroll up the line, further and further. He eventually took the throw-in level with the 18 yard box. We should have had them pinned in. Shouting at the ref to make him go back to the point where the ball went out. We never moan at the ref for things like that. Annoys me. 

[uttoxram75]

2 minutes ago, Norman said:

Against Wycombe, scores level, the ball bounced against Wycombe's corner flag and out for a throw-in. 

We allowed the taker to stroll up the line, further and further. He eventually took the throw-in level with the 18 yard box. We should have had them pinned in. Shouting at the ref to make him go back to the point where the ball went out. We never moan at the ref for things like that. Annoys me. 

Totally agree. 

We shouldn't have to do it, the refs should be able to control it, but until they do we should point it out to them.