Nottingham Forest v Derby County Matchday Thread

[Ellafella]

 

[DCFC27]

7 hours ago, Mafiabob said:

You got that from a still with players moving . You’re wrong here.

The referee is unsighted on Waggy, he is relying on his linesman’s call there, that’s why they are there as well. I can see why the lino gave it because Waggy jumped.... I can see the thought process even though it was ultimately wrong.

They all got a lot right tonight. Take McCarthy reaction to Lawerence going over early on. He went pen straight away. It wasn’t and he should have been in the book.

Officials make mistakes, accept it as much as when players make mistakes. They are not corrupt, 99% of the time they have competent at the job they do.

The way some go think they try to ruin a football game. They don’t, come down the Racecourse with me on a Sunday and see some of what the younger refs have to put up with. Seen some shocking treatment them already this season down there with them being in tears on occasions, because of abuse from coaches, parents and actual players giving them grief - where do you think they get it from?

No mate you’re wrong there, the linesman didn’t put his flag up until the ref called it, its why it took so long to be called back. The ref has asked the linesman “was waghorn in an offside position” linesman - “yes” 

ref- “put your flag up” 

alternatively the linesman might have asked the ref if he was interfering... in which case the ref made still made the decision.  

The linesman will know he can’t make that call as he can’t see if he’s in the keepers line. 

If the flag goes up straight away I’d agree with you but it didn’t and you’re wrong. 
 

As for referees, 

unfortunately you have an FA that give marks for bravery of decision, which means if they see the chance they’ll take it. I know a guy who refs in the championship too and genuinely I hear some of the stories he’s telling from their elite coaching sessions and it’s cringeworthy, the mentality of the guys there is just all wrong. 
 

with the exception of grassroots, I take my hat off to grassroots refs the amount of stick they get for £30 is really not worth it. 
 

[ossieram]

1 hour ago, brady1993 said:

Admittedly my first thought was "it will be peak Derby when it's revealed he's done his ACL"

What does Peak Derby  mean?

[Comrade 86]

14 minutes ago, ossieram said:

What does Peak Derby  mean?

I think it's yoof speak for 'just like' mate.

[DavesaRam]

5 hours ago, Alty_Ram said:

I think the very fact that we feel disappointed not to win that tells you all you need to know. Regardless of offside issues it was an absolute nailed-on foul on Davies for their goal, the guy has a clear handful of his shirt. As for our disallowed effort, let's not overlook what a well worked and taken 'goal' that was. Good close control from Lawrence and layoff to Jozwiak who finished absolutely brilliantly.

There has been a completely understandable concern about the forward options and whether any of them can score enough goals this season but that move perhaps illustrates that if we can get the ball under control in advanced areas then we have plenty of players who can cause damage. So, a nice finish by Joswiak but we know what Lawrence, Sibley and Knight can do in similar areas too and Ibe still to come.

Keep the faith ! ?

Actually the handful of shirt was after the Forest player has pushed down on Davis' shoulders to stop him jumping up to head the ball away. He then let his hands slide down the back and grab hold of the shirt. So it was two fouls, not one, and both happened with the ref staring right at them. A riot of my own thjnks the ref was good and got everything right, but I though Derby v Forest was the only match being played last night! How the two full backs stayed on the itch I have no idea, and there were countless examples of subtly putting the foot in were ignored. At least the one on Knight leading up to the goal was spotted, even though the knuckedraggers were claiming it wasn't a foul. Not by forest player's standards, but by the laws of the game if you take a snick at an opponent's leg as you go past him, then it is a foul.

[Mafiabob]

1 hour ago, DCFC27 said:

No mate you’re wrong there, the linesman didn’t put his flag up until the ref called it, its why it took so long to be called back. The ref has asked the linesman “was waghorn in an offside position” linesman - “yes” 

ref- “put your flag up” 

alternatively the linesman might have asked the ref if he was interfering... in which case the ref made still made the decision.  

The linesman will know he can’t make that call as he can’t see if he’s in the keepers line. 

If the flag goes up straight away I’d agree with you but it didn’t and you’re wrong. 
 

As for referees, 

unfortunately you have an FA that give marks for bravery of decision, which means if they see the chance they’ll take it. I know a guy who refs in the championship too and genuinely I hear some of the stories he’s telling from their elite coaching sessions and it’s cringeworthy, the mentality of the guys there is just all wrong. 
 

with the exception of grassroots, I take my hat off to grassroots refs the amount of stick they get for £30 is really not worth it. 
 

Hang on - you’re telling me I’m wrong then you come up with two different scenarios for me to prove it. It’s either/or - which one was it?

Whose the ref you know? Also I’ll say for refs at that level, they are competitive, just like players. They want to ref the best games, you only need to read Graham Poll or Howard Webb’s books to hear them stories. The mentality is the same as anyone whose competitive in any sport or industry.....

The final point is because of professional players and managers try to con, abuse and cheat officials because of a win at all costs mentality. It’s easy to get the fans onside and riled when criticising a ref. How many officials do you see criticise a player or manager? This is why the grassroots refs get tons of abuse. This is where the FA fails refs for me. Cut it out in the pro game and it filters down. Numbers of refs are at an all time low.

Apologies for long post - I’m a firm defender of referees, they are needed, I just don’t think it’s fair the amount of stick they get. Yes it’s deserved at times, but they are only human 

 

 

 

[Comrade 86]

8 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

Hang on - you’re telling me I’m wrong then you come up with two different scenarios for me to prove it. It’s either/or - which one was it?

Whose the ref you know? Also I’ll say for refs at that level, they are competitive, just like players. They want to ref the best games, you only need to read Graham Poll or Howard Webb’s books to hear them stories. The mentality is the same as anyone whose competitive in any sport or industry.....

The final point is because of professional players and managers try to con, abuse and cheat officials because of a win at all costs mentality. It’s easy to get the fans onside and riled when criticising a ref. How many officials do you see criticise a player or manager? This is why the grassroots refs get tons of abuse. This is where the FA fails refs for me. Cut it out in the pro game and it filters down. Numbers of refs are at an all time low.

Apologies for long post - I’m a firm defender of referees, they are needed, I just don’t think it’s fair the amount of stick they get. Yes it’s deserved at times, but they are only human 

A very fair post, I'd say. Ironically, the ref had a good game yesterday bar the one glaring inconsistency. That gets overlooked in the aftermath. I think your point about the trickle down is a really valid one. When you look at some of the thugs that play rugby, it shows unequivocally that respect for referees can be instilled if it's mandated. Football has made a very poor job of that IMO.

[Mafiabob]

9 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

A very fair post, I'd say. Ironically, the ref had a good game yesterday bar the one glaring inconsistency. That gets overlooked in the aftermath. I think your point about the trickle down is a really valid one. When you look at some of the thugs that play rugby, it shows unequivocally that respect for referees can be instilled if it's mandated. Football has made a very poor job of that IMO.

Absolutely. I’m a massive advocate in refs having mics - then you’ll get the reasoning behind a decision instantly and the dissent reduced to being minimal. It needs a culture change football..... I also agree the FA handle it poorly. Mike Riley needs to go at the PGMOL..... I can only imagine referees chomping at the bit to explain decision making and talking after..... 

[May Contain Nuts]

29 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

Whose the ref you know? Also I’ll say for refs at that level, they are competitive, just like players. They want to ref the best games, you only need to read Graham Poll or Howard Webb’s books to hear them stories. The mentality is the same as anyone whose competitive in any sport or industry.....

That just proves the problem of ego.

They're supposed to be 100% impartial but in the back of their mind there's some competition to appear the 'best' referee ?

That sounds more like they're forced to meet goals and quotas to please an arbitrary measure of performance rather than judging anything on individual merit.

Maybe you can't blame them individually, but you can therefore point out that the expectations put upon them lead to a situation whereby rationality means nothing.

[Mafiabob]

Just now, Coconut said:

That just proves the problem of ego.

They're supposed to be 100% impartial but in the back of their mind there's some competition to appear the 'best' referee ?

That sounds more like they're forced to meet goals and quotas to please an arbitrary measure of performance rather than judging anything on individual merit.

Maybe you can't blame them individually, but you can therefore point out that the system is a joke.

Tell me who hasn’t got a ego at a professional level at any kind of work? Come on, I strive to be the best at what I do..... why should I just be distinctly average when I know I can improve in my work? Why should every mindset be the same? Why shouldn’t they strive to reach the top?

Ill tell you now, when I was 19 - I was the youngest ref to make the Midlands Regional Alliance Prem Division, did I want to stick there? Did I heck..... I was ambitious. Every referee you see in the pro leagues started the same place, down at grassroots. It’s a crime to suggest they can’t compete to be the best at what they do 

[Ghost of Clough]

16 hours ago, RamNut said:

Yes. An nowadays the definition is loaded with all sorts of spurious nonsense. 
in the past if you were down injured,  or say twenty five yards away etc maybe you were not interfering, otherwise you were. 
here Waghorn is on his feet running across the penalty area, trying to get on the end of something. 
of course he’s active, interfering, or whatever anyone wants to call it.

thats more offside in my opinion that these stupid VAR decisions where you need a slide rule to calculate if someone’s thumb, heel or knob end is now “technically” Offside at the split second that the ball is kicked.  

Your argument is that you don't agree with the current offside rule. By the letter of the game, Waghorn was offside but it wasn't an offside offence. The goal should have stood.

[cannable]

2 hours ago, ossieram said:

What does Peak Derby  mean?

Think “the most Derby thing to happen”

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

46 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

Hang on - you’re telling me I’m wrong then you come up with two different scenarios for me to prove it. It’s either/or - which one was it?

Whose the ref you know? Also I’ll say for refs at that level, they are competitive, just like players. They want to ref the best games, you only need to read Graham Poll or Howard Webb’s books to hear them stories. The mentality is the same as anyone whose competitive in any sport or industry.....

The final point is because of professional players and managers try to con, abuse and cheat officials because of a win at all costs mentality. It’s easy to get the fans onside and riled when criticising a ref. How many officials do you see criticise a player or manager? This is why the grassroots refs get tons of abuse. This is where the FA fails refs for me. Cut it out in the pro game and it filters down. Numbers of refs are at an all time low.

Apologies for long post - I’m a firm defender of referees, they are needed, I just don’t think it’s fair the amount of stick they get. Yes it’s deserved at times, but they are only human 

 

 

 

Meet him and Uriah Rennie at an evening wedding reception at the Rolls Royce club.  Nice bloke. Spent half the evening arguing with a Villa fan about a penalty he'd given against them against Arsenal.  He agreed to watch it on the TV in the bar at the back on match of the day to prove he was right. 

Penalty comes on and he admits ' I made a right balls up there didn't I, think I owe you a pint mate.

[Gee SCREAMER !!]

Bring in VAR for what it's useful for . Penalties, red cards and one decision challenge, per team, per game.

[Mafiabob]

11 minutes ago, Gee SCREAMER !! said:

Meet him and Uriah Rennie at an evening wedding reception at the Rolls Royce club.  Nice bloke. Spent half the evening arguing with a Villa fan about a penalty he'd given against them against Arsenal.  He agreed to watch it on the TV in the bar at the back on match of the day to prove he was right. 

Penalty comes on and he admits ' I made a right balls up there didn't I, think I owe you a pint mate.

Top bloke, does a lot for charity. I’m not surprised at that kind of story at all haha 

[May Contain Nuts]

27 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

Tell me who hasn’t got a ego at a professional level at any kind of work? Come on, I strive to be the best at what I do..... why should I just be distinctly average when I know I can improve in my work? Why should every mindset be the same? Why shouldn’t they strive to reach the top?

Ill tell you now, when I was 19 - I was the youngest ref to make the Midlands Regional Alliance Prem Division, did I want to stick there? Did I heck..... I was ambitious. Every referee you see in the pro leagues started the same place, down at grassroots. It’s a crime to suggest they can’t compete to be the best at what they do 

 

I will agree that most people in a competitive environment would be willing to replace what they think is right with what they are told is right.

...but you're actively and openly admitting that you let your job prospects impact affect your judgement of right and wrong based on arbitrary factors

Does striving to be the best mean striving to tick as boxes as possible, regardless of circumstance or your own judgement?

You shouldn't aspire to be distinctly average, you should aspire to being fair reasonable and accountable for your judgements. Is there much evidence of accountability in professional refereeing? It doesn't feel like there is.

[Mafiabob]

13 minutes ago, Coconut said:

 

I will agree that most people in a competitive environment would be willing to replace what they think is right with what they are told is right.

...but you're actively and openly admitting that you let your job prospects impact affect your judgement of right and wrong based on arbitrary factors

Does striving to be the best mean striving to tick as boxes as possible, regardless of circumstance or your own judgement?

You shouldn't aspire to be distinctly average, you should aspire to being fair reasonable and accountable for your judgements. Is there much evidence of accountability in professional refereeing? It doesn't feel like there is.

There is lots of accountability, you just don’t see it publicly. That’s what bothers me a deal, I also think they get hung out to dry by the powers that be a lot. I’m sorry, but I firmly believe they are fair and reasonable - it can (and should) go hand in hand in striving to be better..... otherwise what do you get?

[MackworthRamIsGod]

3 hours ago, ossieram said:

What does Peak Derby  mean?

To me it means Thorpe Cloud.

[RamNut]

1 hour ago, Ghost of Clough said:

Your argument is that you don't agree with the current offside rule. By the letter of the game, Waghorn was offside but it wasn't an offside offence. The goal should have stood.

Correct. Evidently it was offside though, because that’s what the officials gave. 

[May Contain Nuts]

9 minutes ago, Mafiabob said:

There is lots of accountability, you just don’t see it publicly. That’s what bothers me a deal, I also think they get hung out to dry by the powers that be a lot. I’m sorry, but I firmly believe they are fair and reasonable - it can (and should) go hand in hand in striving to be better..... otherwise what do you get?

Well tell us how they're accountable then, from your experience?

Honestly I'm generally on the side of the refs, I've seen plenty of biased fans calling something wrong when it was clearly right, and stuck up for decisions, but sometimes there are things which need calling out.

it seems that only way a top official (like Bobby Madley) ever faces any real consequence is though media ********. The general perception is that they're 'demoted' for a few games , but in reality their worse decisions have a far greater consequence to teams lower down the period than those up above