"Unacceptable"

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1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

Yes but he's the manager, he could see that at half-time - where was the change?

I don't know, mate, I can't judge it over one half of a game. "It's easier said than done", is where I'm at at the moment.

[BondJovi]

18 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Which players are bang average compared to the rest of the league. 

Marshall, Clarke, Ter Wierik, Bielik, Rooney, Bird, Holmes, Sibely, Marriott, Waghorn? 

Look at the teams in the Play Offs last season. Look at Preston last season or Millwall or Swansea or Cardiff or Forest.  Would they take many of our players because I think they would. I reckon they'd all take a couple each.

I think any team would have Rooney considering the tears when we signed him. 

Again, Cocu isn't in a dream situation like Clement was but it's not exactly Nigel Clough's wage budget either. 

We have 16 senior players in our squad, Forest have 24. Marriott's record in this league does indeed make him... average at best. Unfortunately Waghorn is your 15 at best a season striker, not many promotion chasing teams will build around that. Those teams would take those players you listed but I doubt they would be much more than squad players, Clarke being the exception.

I would argue that Cocu is in a very similar situation to Clough. But expectations under Clough were rock bottom, following porno Paul meant even a win was a delightful occasion.

We are expected to be top 6. I get that the performance was poor and equally after a year in charge you would expect better, but it is not as if that 11 have played multiple matches together or even been at the club together for more than 1 month!

[IslandExile]

Just now, RoyMac5 said:

Why not Evans? But the bench looked limited to say the least. Still wouldn't you rather see a young player attempt something than stick with nothing?

I've said that, as much as I am excited by the youngsters, I think - out of necessity - there are too many in the team at the moment. Too much pressure on them and makes us a little lightweight. I think that's why Buchanan didn't play over Fozzy, which would have been my choice. If you're indicating that we could have brought Brown on, it's putting a lot on him. "Come on Brownie lad, show those first team flops how it's done".

[RoyMac5]

1 minute ago, IslandExile said:

Too much pressure on them and makes us a little lightweight.

Wow! More than we were? Why not Shonibare, why not Buchanan, why 2 DMs - could it have been worse? I think Cocu prefers caution to adventure, certainty to risk. We'll see. Lets hope by mid-October we've more in up front than Jozwiak.

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6 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Wow! More than we were? Why not Shonibare, why not Buchanan, why 2 DMs - could it have been worse? I think Cocu prefers caution to adventure, certainty to risk. We'll see. Lets hope by mid-October we've more in up front than Jozwiak.

That's the question isn't it - Cocu says he wants adventure and risk, but the doubt is there because of some of the performances. That's what I meant by saying it's easier said than done - it won't happen because he says he wants it to happen, but only if his methods over time encourage the right amount of adventure and risk. We'll see!

[Alph]

2 hours ago, Premier ram said:

same old Derby fans , go through a sticky patch , missing some of your experienced players and its question the manager time , give Cocu the season , get his new players in and injured players back and im sure we will see a different Rams

The patch was where we were the form team imo. That's the patch on this blanket

We had those players last season and it was the same then. 

Thats why people are questioning him. And it is only questioning him rather than calling for his head. Have to get that in or some people will argue against an opinion that hasn't been made. 

My concern is that the little spell when Rooney arrived was us hitting some form and playing average to below average teams. My worry is that what came before is a more accurate picture of what Derby under Cocu look like

There is no ott panic on here imo. Some fans choose to take a small sample and provide excuses, while others take a larger sample and don't accept some of the excuses. That's fair debate imo which is why I think some of the mockery that comes from the "happy clappers" (for lack of a better description i apologise) is the only reaction that's ott. 

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

I'm as pro Derby County, pro the current manager, pro the players as anyone but currently I am very worried. For us to have a good season we need a few things to drop in place:

1. The youngsters to prove they can be consistent (Sibley/Bird) or make the step up to top end championship (Whittaker/Knight.
2. Mike Te-Wierik to improve dramatically and become our best centre back.  
3. Injured players to return and be better than before they were injured.
4. At least two new forwards who are top end championship quality.

Failing the above we are in for a mid/lower end season full of frustration and the realisation we are not a very good team.

Not being mardy just how I feel. UTR

[Alph]

1 hour ago, BondJovi said:

We have 16 senior players in our squad, Forest have 24. Marriott's record in this league does indeed make him... average at best. Unfortunately Waghorn is your 15 at best a season striker, not many promotion chasing teams will build around that. Those teams would take those players you listed but I doubt they would be much more than squad players, Clarke being the exception.

I would argue that Cocu is in a very similar situation to Clough. But expectations under Clough were rock bottom, following porno Paul meant even a win was a delightful occasion.

We are expected to be top 6. I get that the performance was poor and equally after a year in charge you would expect better, but it is not as if that 11 have played multiple matches together or even been at the club together for more than 1 month!

With Waghorn and Marriott that's all Lampard had too. He made use of Mason Bennett. 

I would say if Bielik cost 8-10m and isn't walking into any team then there's something wrong with the price. 

Rooney is a player thats not average and Marshall is a highly rated keeper too. 

Holmes again I thought was productive under Lampard and maybe I'm wrong but Max Bird is already a really good player for this level. 

A few claim Lawrence is a very good Champ player.

I accept that Lampard had better players. Match winners. 

I'm not expecting to be breezing past anybody. I don't want to disrespect Cocu too much or try to claim he has an easy task. 

I just don't think we have it that bad. Other teams have less to compete with. And a good few find a way. All I really expect from Derby is gradual improvement and to consistently pose a threat to opponents. Imo we have too often been brushed aside by outside top 6 sides. Brushed aside being more the point than beaten. 

Barrow, Scunthorpe, Northampton, Luton, Charlton, Hull, Wigan, Stoke, Reading, Barrow... season defining games like Cardiff. 

Then games where we are expected to lose we still don't trouble them. WBA, Forest, Leeds and Brentford. 

These are games where we have had possession and done nothing or had to do without possession and struggled to conjure up meaningful counters. 

I try to think of stand out games under Cocu. I've got Stoke 4-0. 

This falls in line with Clement. I thought Rowett was totally committed to counter attacking football and looked clueless when teams didn't fall for it. But there were more exciting games under him. There were also better results.

Lampard has half dozen memorable games. 

I genuinely do accept Cocu has had it rough. I definitely don't demand anything other than progress. Even without progress imo I still won't call for his head! 

But Barrow and Reading are small tiny indicators that it's the same again. And the concerns are there for some Rams. The only positive I took from those two games was the penalty shootout. Slow football, no flexibility in the style, no what ifs... nothing. 

That's the seeds of doubt creeping in for me. There will have to be some big changes to make a team that would trouble Reading and Barrow. That's a thought we shouldn't be left with, surely?

[europia]

Lampard had three really excellent loan players. It should have been enough to get us promoted and things would have been different if Mount hadn't been injured at a critical time of the season. The dismal performance and questionable selection for the Wembley play off final is another matter......

[Archied]

10 hours ago, Tyler Durden said:

I'm definitely not mixing emotions with facts. Truth is this level of performance was witnessed over the latter part of last season with a lot of the players being present whose absence now is being used as a lamentable justification for the output yesterday. 

Truth is this level of performance was witnessed over large parts of the season before that without the presence of the manger being blamed for it now??‍♂️

[Archied]

8 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

Did we play that well, I'm sad to say I only really remember the Blackburn match, lol. I do remember lots of sideways possession-based drudgery too mind.

Sheff weds away we were fantastic to watch

[Tyler Durden]

7 minutes ago, Archied said:

Truth is this level of performance was witnessed over large parts of the season before that without the presence of the manger being blamed for it now??‍♂️

Perhaps the levels of understanding and tolerance have diminished the longer the manager has been in situ? 

[Archied]

6 hours ago, Alpha said:

With Waghorn and Marriott that's all Lampard had too. He made use of Mason Bennett. 

I would say if Bielik cost 8-10m and isn't walking into any team then there's something wrong with the price. 

Rooney is a player thats not average and Marshall is a highly rated keeper too. 

Holmes again I thought was productive under Lampard and maybe I'm wrong but Max Bird is already a really good player for this level. 

A few claim Lawrence is a very good Champ player.

I accept that Lampard had better players. Match winners. 

I'm not expecting to be breezing past anybody. I don't want to disrespect Cocu too much or try to claim he has an easy task. 

I just don't think we have it that bad. Other teams have less to compete with. And a good few find a way. All I really expect from Derby is gradual improvement and to consistently pose a threat to opponents. Imo we have too often been brushed aside by outside top 6 sides. Brushed aside being more the point than beaten. 

Barrow, Scunthorpe, Northampton, Luton, Charlton, Hull, Wigan, Stoke, Reading, Barrow... season defining games like Cardiff. 

Then games where we are expected to lose we still don't trouble them. WBA, Forest, Leeds and Brentford. 

These are games where we have had possession and done nothing or had to do without possession and struggled to conjure up meaningful counters. 

I try to think of stand out games under Cocu. I've got Stoke 4-0. 

This falls in line with Clement. I thought Rowett was totally committed to counter attacking football and looked clueless when teams didn't fall for it. But there were more exciting games under him. There were also better results.

Lampard has half dozen memorable games. 

I genuinely do accept Cocu has had it rough. I definitely don't demand anything other than progress. Even without progress imo I still won't call for his head! 

But Barrow and Reading are small tiny indicators that it's the same again. And the concerns are there for some Rams. The only positive I took from those two games was the penalty shootout. Slow football, no flexibility in the style, no what ifs... nothing. 

That's the seeds of doubt creeping in for me. There will have to be some big changes to make a team that would trouble Reading and Barrow. That's a thought we shouldn't be left with, surely?

I do think people under estimate the amount of dire performances that were turned into wins by a wonder goal from Harry 

[Archied]

3 minutes ago, Tyler Durden said:

Perhaps the levels of understanding and tolerance have diminished the longer the manager has been in situ? 

Perhaps

[Alph]

50 minutes ago, Archied said:

I do think people under estimate the amount of dire performances that were turned into wins by a wonder goal from Harry 

Yeah, tbf that's something I'd forgot about 

[BramcoteRam84]

21 hours ago, Rammy03 said:

Why are they lacking confidence? It's the managers responsibility 

The manager is responsible for the overall team performance yes and will be judged at an appropriate point in time (not first game of the season) based on a number of factors which will also include the resources at his disposal. Why do some players lack confidence, only they know, we have young players whose confidence can be fragile, and new players getting used to teammates surroundings and expectations, that also affects confidence.
 

How can a manager control how a player thinks and decisions he makes on the field? Impossible. They can coach, share knowledge, encourage but ultimately players have to do it. If they don’t the team gets changed in certain areas where it’s possible to do so, otherwise the manager has to do his best with what he has. Over time, he will then be judged and it will need to be considered could someone else do better with the same resources?