Coronavirus

[Norman]

4 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Surely there is a world of difference between movement between prisons and prisoners been released/sent down vs 1000s and 1000s of kids going back to school and instantly mixing up all the socially distanced families?

It's a ridiculous gamble and one that has not even been justified yet.

Schools have remained open for key workers throughout. They could perhaps take in more children for parents who need to return to work. Surely that makes more sense than sending back all Reception and Year 6 kids? Most people with 2 kids wouldn't be able to return to work anyway. Like much of what the government do, it defies logic.

My sanctimonious tone was due to the subtext of your post, which seemed to be "if I can work in dangerous conditions, then surely some scaredy cat teachers can stop being so cowardly and get back to work."

No, it's the same. Lock down in my prison that has covid will end, over a 1000 mixing. They are entitled to visits. You're going to expect me to got to work though? 

Teachers aren't cowardly, I don't blame them. From reading it is more the unions expressing their opinion as fact when not everyone is a member. 

I would probably be breaching information if I told you how many had died in prisons from it.....but there is a reason it is so low, and it has nothing to with covid not being present. And everything to do with the majority of the prison population being 20 - 49 and like to do weights, eat a healthy diet etc. Basically not fat, old and diabetic. I don't think it's a coincidence closed environments as you put it, like care homes and prison, have had such massively different results.

[G STAR RAM]

2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Still a bit weird he is on the Sage committee though isn't it? He seems like the sort of character who would try and influence a supposedly independent group of experts.

I wouldn't trust the way he follows the science either. Remember when he was happy to recruit an advisor who claimed science had shown that black people weren't as intelligent than whites.

I dont find it weird that a Government adviser is sitting on meetings that are to advise the Government, no.

If anyone from the committee reveals that he is trying to influence the meeting or the advice being given, then I would take a different view.

Your last paragraph is irrelevant, unless you are suggesting that Cummings is selecting who is on SAGE?

[ariotofmyown]

2 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

My kids are 7 and 10 and have no trouble following social distancing rules.

In fact I would say they have managed it  much better than lots of adults.

Well mine are 9 and can't imagine how they would do it at school with loads of other kids. Let alone 5 year olds in reception.

[G STAR RAM]

4 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Well mine are 9 and can't imagine how they would do it at school with loads of other kids. Let alone 5 year olds in reception.

Seems to be working just fine in Denmark 

[ariotofmyown]

2 minutes ago, Norman said:

No, it's the same. Lock down in my prison that has covid will end, over a 1000 mixing. They are entitled to visits. You're going to expect me to got to work though? 

Teachers aren't cowardly, I don't blame them. From reading it is more the unions expressing their opinion as fact when not everyone is a member. 

I would probably be breaching information if I told you how many had died in prisons from it.....but there is a reason it is so low, and it has nothing to with covid not being present. And everything to do with the majority of the prison population being 20 - 49 and like to do weights, eat a healthy diet etc. Basically not fat, old and diabetic. I don't think it's a coincidence closed environments as you put it, like care homes and prison, have had such massively different results.

According to google, there are 86k prisoners in the uk.

If we take 66 million people in the UK and assume that is distributed evenly over all age ranges of 1 to 100, that is 660k year 6s and 660k reception years.

Whilst there are prison visits/releases etc, schools opening for just 2 years will mean over a million kids going into school all day, then returning home to their families each evening. Seems like an opportune way to get the virus going again, especially when the R rate is already apparently over 1 in some northern towns.

Maybe this is driving the thinking of the unions?

Good point on prisoners not dying though. I read somewhere that only 1% of deaths are from under 45s.

Prisons must surely be a good dead end for the virus though. As would schools be if the kids weren't allowed to come home.

[ariotofmyown]

24 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'm interested to know who people are holding accountable for this?

Well we certainly can't blame the government for it, as they have just being following the science

Let me paste in that whole paragraph for you as you only posted the final sentence. Who do you hold accountable for both points of the below...

"On 19 March, the status of covid-19 was downgraded from level 4, the highest threat level, to level 3 by the four nations group on high consequence infectious diseases and the Advisory Committee on Dangerous Pathogens.11 This enabled the required standard of personal protective equipment to be lowered for staff in hospitals and to nurse patients in non-infectious disease settings. Meanwhile, a reckless policy of discharging older patients from hospitals to care homes without testing allowed the virus to spread and kick start a second epidemic of community infection."

[Norman]

1 minute ago, ariotofmyown said:

According to google, there are 86k prisoners in the uk.

If we take 66 million people in the UK and assume that is distributed evenly over all age ranges of 1 to 100, that is 660k year 6s and 660k reception years.

Whilst there are prison visits/releases etc, schools opening for just 2 years will mean over a million kids going into school all day, then returning home to their families each evening. Seems like an opportune way to get the virus going again, especially when the R rate is already apparently over 1 in some northern towns.

Maybe this is driving the thinking of the unions?

Good point on prisoners not dying though. I read somewhere that only 1% of deaths are from under 45s.

Prisons must surely be a good dead end for the virus though. As would schools be if the kids weren't allowed to come home.

The numbers of prisoners doesn't take into account private prisons. It's over 100k. Which changes by hundreds per day due to releases, ship outs, recategorisations. So the amount of people going in and out and having contact with prisons is far higher over a 6 month period.

The economy needs to get going. Let's see if kids can keep their distances. There is only one way to find out....other countries are managing it and I don't think it's a good enough excuse to not go back and teach. If it is made as safe as possible, what are we waiting for? A vaccine? Austerity will kill far more than this virus will if you truly believe the figures you happily quote over the last ten years 

 

[ariotofmyown]

3 minutes ago, Norman said:

The numbers of prisoners doesn't take into account private prisons. It's over 100k. Which changes by hundreds per day due to releases, ship outs, recategorisations. So the amount of people going in and out and having contact with prisons is far higher over a 6 month period.

The economy needs to get going. Let's see if kids can keep their distances. There is only one way to find out....other countries are managing it and I don't think it's a good enough excuse to not go back and teach. If it is made as safe as possible, what are we waiting for? A vaccine? Austerity will kill far more than this virus will if you truly believe the figures you happily quote over the last ten years 

 

Another approach is to not open schools again until September. Hard to see what potential benefits there are to opening schools for 2 years for 6 weeks vs the risks of ramping up infections again when they seem to be dropping. Perhaps it's just a test to see what happens?

[Comrade 86]

3 hours ago, Archied said:

Firstly my daughter is a primary school teacher and my wife is in childcare so have no axe to grind with teachers ,we are talking generalisations coming from unions of teachers and transport at this point ,

sorry but saying the my initial point makes zero sense just doesn’t fly, whether you or I think the gov handling Of this is a shambles or not is by the by we are told that the gov are following the science and then in turn we are expected to follow the gov guidelines/ rules , do we all pick and choose the parts we agree with and just follow those then ignore and go against the ones we personally feel are right?

sorry but there are masses of people who don’t agree with lockdown and a lot of the areas that make no sense compared with other areas of regs during it ,

you would be the first to lambaste so called covidiots who ignore the gov and rightly so but that is based on the fact you believe the lockdown imposed is the right thing to do ,

we either ALL follow the gov guidelines or we ALL have the freedom to choose for ourselves or else what’s the point of having a government at all

The safety of those I love features right at the top of my list of personal priorities. Literally nothing will change that. Obedience to the government features a long way back I'm afraid. Such are my values, such is MY CHOICE. I acknowledge you may not feel the same way and that sir, is YOUR CHOICE. 

Comparing the teachers actions to those of the 'covidiots' (by this I assume you mean the Hyde Park, 5G fries your brain types) just illustrates how far apart we are on this, so I'll sign off on this particular point as I sense what I'm actually advocating and what I'm being challenged on, are not really the same thing.

[Norman]

2 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

Another approach is to not open schools again until September. Hard to see what potential benefits there are to opening schools for 2 years for 6 weeks vs the risks of ramping up infections again when they seem to be dropping. Perhaps it's just a test to see what happens?

But that's exactly what it is......  

And I have no problem with it. It needs to happen. Are we sitting on our arses  waiting for a vaccine or are we going to figure out a way to get as much of our economy open as possible? 

[ariotofmyown]

3 minutes ago, Norman said:

But that's exactly what it is......  

And I have no problem with it. It needs to happen. Are we sitting on our arses  waiting for a vaccine or are we going to figure out a way to get as much of our economy open as possible? 

I don't feel the government have communicated this is just a test. I could understand teachers and parents being somewhat reluctant to take part in this test, especially after witnessing so many poor decisions already.

[Norman]

3 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

I don't feel the government have communicated this is just a test. I could understand teachers and parents being somewhat reluctant to take part in this test, especially after witnessing so many poor decisions already.

Obviously they haven't. 

But send back 2 school years for 6 weeks followed by a 6 week break? 

What else do you think it is?

If teachers are reluctant, fair enough. My opinion, though, is that they should be at work facilitating what the government asks. Just like I am. And I don't agree with a lot of what I am having to put up with. 

[1967Ram]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

No they're not. Movement between prisons are back on. Covid is inside them. 

The courts are up and running, where do you think they are sending people? And where are the Cat C's going? Etc etc to make room for them. 

You know nothing on the subject but talk in facts. 

Thank you for the sanctimonious tone, but teachers are crucial to getting our economy going. They should be at work with measures in place to make it as safe as possible. 

Like all the other key workers. 

The economy needs to get going, risks have to be taken. 

You've banged on long enough about ten years of 'austerity'. You're about to see far worse than that if we don't open up. 

I'm a teacher and agree with this statement. The problem is what are the measures in place? 

Headteachers, and their senior leadership teams, throughout the land are trying to get their heads around how pupils can return to school and it be as safe as possible. I don't envy them in this task as the stakes are so high if they make the wrong call. For many the issue I think is the date of 1st June. No headteacher, in their right mind, is going to want to open their school to more pupils until they are sure they've done everything they can to ensure there are measures in place to make it as safe as possible.

I back my headteacher to decide on when is the right time. She will take her time and consult widely before more pupils are allowed back.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Van Gritters said:

I think that is what we were doing when there was about 1 - 10 cases a day late February. Football was still going n and Coronavirus was still something to make a joke about in the pub pre match.

Indeed. Then they abandoned that policy instead of stepping it up.

[Eddie]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

No they're not. Movement between prisons are back on. Covid is inside them. 

The courts are up and running, where do you think they are sending people? And where are the Cat C's going? Etc etc to make room for them. 

You know nothing on the subject but talk in facts. 

Thank you for the sanctimonious tone, but teachers are crucial to getting our economy going. They should be at work with measures in place to make it as safe as possible. 

Like all the other key workers. 

The economy needs to get going, risks have to be taken. 

You've banged on long enough about ten years of 'austerity'. You're about to see far worse than that if we don't open up. 

I've got a suggestion, seeing as you seem to think that schools should be treated the same as prisons with respect to the handling of Covid-19.

Let all your prisoners go home every evening to mix with their families again.

[Eddie]

52 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

You do know that 1000s of people have died right?

Thousands die from the flu, you know. I've been told on here, many times.

It's not 'left wing v right wing'.

It's people who listen to experts v people who think they know better. "My ignorance is just as valid as your knowledge" is a blight on our society.

[Comrade 86]

1 hour ago, Norman said:

Thank you for the sanctimonious tone, but teachers are crucial to getting our economy going. They should be at work with measures in place to make it as safe as possible. 

Like all the other key workers. 

The economy needs to get going, risks have to be taken. 

You've banged on long enough about ten years of 'austerity'. You're about to see far worse than that if we don't open up. 

Your circumstances are pretty grim and while I admire the fact that you have chosen the path you have, are you saying that you would put your own family's health at risk to support the government's will?  I'm genuinely curious as to where the line falls in your mind, especially given the fact that your career sounds incredibly high-risk right now. Would you also acknowledge or dismiss the notion that a teacher might be far more risk averse in ANY circumstances than a prison officer?

Also, we all understand the impact of the lockdown on the economy, but let's not forget either, that many are now used to living under austerity measures. You've been highly dismissive of those on here who have raised the issue of austerity economics pre-Covid-19, yet you raise it as something salient now that the same measures threaten to impact a far higher percentage of our populous. I suppose the measure of us loony lefties will be whether we are as dismissive of your concerns as you were of ours.

A final thought... For the little value I suspect you'll attach to the notion, were you to say, 'enough is enough, these things need to happen if I am to continue putting myself and my family at risk', I'd support that stance in spades. Worth mulling over?

[1of4]

15 minutes ago, Norman said:

Obviously they haven't. 

But send back 2 school years for 6 weeks followed by a 6 week break? 

What else do you think it is?

If teachers are reluctant, fair enough. My opinion, though, is that they should be at work facilitating what the government asks. Just like I am. And I don't agree with a lot of what I am having to put up with. 

Are the prisons back to being run as per pre crisis? If not when do you think they will be?

Do you and your fellow guards wear any PPE to protect against the virus when coming into contact with a prisoner? 

[A Ram for All Seasons]

Well, only 30-odd people turned up to the UK Mass Gathering in Wollaton Park yesterday organized by the UK Freedom Movement (whoever they are). That is very encouraging. I thought there would be a few hundred at least.

https://www.nottinghampost.com/news/nottingham-news/public-react-after-protesters-breach-4139611

 

[EtoileSportiveDeDerby]

12 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

No deflection tactics please. 

Who do you hold responsible for patients with Covid 19 being sent from hospitals to care homes.

Also, as you want to broaden the subject, who is responsible for the procurement of PPE?

Both very good questions but rather than just looking at who which is just about finding a culprit (and i don't know the answer I must say) what I would be interested in is why there was an issue with the 2 points you raise.