The Politics Thread 2020

[GboroRam]

[Jourdan]

I saw Gary McFarlane’s interview on Talk Radio and I saw John Boyega’s speech from Hyde Park and sadly I wasn’t swayed.

I am still really struggling with this movement because I think it has been highly politicised and it doesn’t really cut to the core of modern day issues in black society.

People are framing it as them v us, blacks v whites or blacks v the establishment when it’s not the real fight that needs to be fought. One could argue more damaging problems that are prevalent in black communities are just being wilfully ignored.

The black community has to look inwardly first and address problems within - the crime, the violence, the murders, the gangs, the misogyny and mistreatment of women, the poor family structures and dynamics, the stigma readily attached to anyone within the black community who dares to be different.

People don’t want to talk about it but black people can be some of the most intolerant people in society and its very own community is massively divided.

For example if you are black and you don’t blindly follow this movement, you can be labelled a coon, an Uncle Tom, an undercover racist, a white sympathiser, a champion for white supremacy.

All we are seeing is people are being coerced into solidarity and unity and being spoon fed guilt inducing narratives, when it needs to be a more organic process.

Don’t get me wrong, this is not self hate. There is so much value, strength, beauty and honour in being black, but if you refuse to shine a light on yourself, it takes a lot of nerve to shine it on others. 

Imagine being gay and black. Imagine being transgender and black. Imagine being in an interracial relationship and being black, and so on. You can be derided, ostracised, abused, and even in some cases killed because it’s not the norm and looked down upon in black society. 

I can honestly say it can be more difficult to find acceptance, love and support in your very own community than it can be in wider society. For me, I believe you have to get your own house in order before you start landscaping other people’s gardens. I am not sure enough black people are prepared to do that.

[angieram]

7 hours ago, Dappled Ram said:

To be honest I'm not a huge fan of the slogan BLM. I would much rather it be ALM. All lives matter. All people have the right to be treated fairly and equally. There should be no discrimination against anyone regardless of whatever race they are. I just find the slogan Black lives matter diversive not unifying.

I saw this today and found it quite helpful.

 

[B4ev6is]

6 hours ago, Anon said:

Brooks takes a tazer off one of the officers. Brooks initially raises that weapon towards the officer after disarming him. The 2nd officer fires his tazer. Brooks then flees and is pursued. Brooks turns, raises the weapon again and fires. Only then is he shot.

At the time it never showed that all it showed him getting out of the car running off from police officer.

Now I seen it I think of this ossicson they had very little choice.

[Alph]

4 hours ago, Needlesh said:

 

What more can we do to advance racial equality? What practical step, right now, would you advocate?

This takes the thread back a few pages to the original heated debate.

Some said do something

Some said keep doing what we have been doing over the years.

We couldn't agree. 

[ariotofmyown]

4 hours ago, jono said:

I don’t think anyone with a sense of justice would deny the right of the BLM cause. I’d also add that the sop of all lives matter misses the point .. that black people in the “west” have had the rawest of deals over a 300 year window in history. No equivocation here; but it is absolutely undeniable that a certain element gain zealous delight in finding a cause to get a Piggy back for their real  Cause that has F all to do with racial equality 

Everything you say up to the "but" I agree with.

In fact, I pretty much agree with all of it. Except the tone seems to be suggesting that this 'certain element' is something that needs to be at the forefront of people's minds. 

Basically, a massive social movement for change attracts a few idiots looking for trouble. 

The counter protest only attracts a few idiots looking for trouble. 

[Comrade 86]

 

10 hours ago, Needlesh said:

What ducking struggle?

So clearly you, along with all those who have endorsed your post, feel folk are protesting for nothing more than poops and giggles given there's no 'ducking struggle'? 

10 hours ago, Needlesh said:

We've gone from 'No blacks, no dogs, no Irish' to broad and common acceptance of equality, normalised multiracial families, people of all shades in parliament and a set of equality legislation of complete soundness. 60 hard years, but that's amazing progress.

I'm 'amazed' that it's taken that long for people to see the outright idiocy and hatefulness of discrimination based purely on skin pigmentation.

No matter - other countries are as bad, if not worse, so as you were.

10 hours ago, Needlesh said:

Problem is there's an industry now around race, and once people have a cause, and a committee, and some funding, they don't give it up.

That's uppity n*****s for you, huh! 

In all seriousness, do you really think people need an 'industry and a committee' to want their kids to grow up free of abuse arising purely as a result of their skin colour? What an appalling notion to voice!

10 hours ago, Needlesh said:

How can we have a colourblind state until we stop talking about colour as though it matters?

It's quite a telling choice of words, to be honest. After all, why would you not be able to see colour without reacting negatively? It's also incongruous that you assert that skin colour does not matter, yet you suggest that to achieve racial harmony, we need to be blind to it nonetheless? 

10 hours ago, Needlesh said:

How many people with red hair got accepted into Oxbridge last year? We don't know, because no-one is keeping tabs, because there's no industry around rights for gingers? How many left handed people? How many under 5'6"?

Left-handed people! Perhaps I've missed the news clips of packs of angry left-handists roaming the streets and forcing randoms to eat spaghetti before deciding whether or not to be nice to them?

This is one of the daftest false equivalencies I've ever read.

10 hours ago, Needlesh said:

You and your mindset are doing more to advance racism in this country than any skinhead banker and his white supremacy ********.

It's not folk like @Eddie who openly challenge racism that set back the cause. If everybody challenged racism there's be no need for people to march, would there?

10 hours ago, Needlesh said:

The BLM view is emotionally compelling, but it drags people into a belief set that isn't based in reality.

So aspiring to racial equality is, in your mind, dragging people into a 'belief set that isn't based in reality'? How so? And if this is how you view things, how is it then that you find the BLM view so 'compelling'? 

10 hours ago, Needlesh said:

What more can we do to advance racial equality? What practical step, right now, would you advocate?

And the punchline!

Literally nothing you say makes sense, despite a large number of fellow posters agreeing with you. I suppose that having a man who states that there is 'no ducking struggle' and admits that he can't conceive of a single measure to 'advance racial equality', yet openly sermonises on the subject, seems not remotely ironic to them at all. ?‍♂️

 

[Jourdan]

Personally I can understand @Needlesh’s view that progress has been made and we are living in a completely different time, and some quarters are putting a mean-spirited slant on matters.

It’s the way the movement has been framed that has upset people. It is not going to be good for race relations if you start to make decent, honest, fair-minded, upstanding people feel ashamed for something they have likely never even contributed to.

If you are a good person in your community, if you treat everyone with kindness and respect and live your life with good in your heart, what do you have to prove? What do you have to be ashamed of? Nothing. Just be good and that’s all the solidarity I need.

But now sadly you have black people and their allies questioning and policing people’s solidarity, and as a result it just becomes an exercise in appeasement and jumping through hoops rather than a genuine move towards unity.

The truth is no matter what white people do, say, think, feel, for some it’ll never be enough. People like Gary McFarlane want to feast on white guilt and anti-establishment sentiment until they can feast no more.

I would love to think that the BLM movement is just about racial equality, fighting the good fight and for a simple and straightforward cause. 

For some, I am sure it is. But to be honest, you only have to do a little digging to realise that for a significant number, racial equality may not even be at the heart of the agenda and for the majority of people that are at the core of the movement, it is rather more nuanced and politicised and not even coming from a place of wanting equality and inclusion.

What makes me question this movement is this: would there be the same levels of support if the movement was LGBT Lives Matter or Muslim Lives Matter?

It seems to me that elements of this movement are merely opening up old wounds and exploiting past race relations to gain political traction.

PS. sorry for rambling! Five more sleeps and I’ll be back to the Cocu Out threads. ?

[jono]

8 hours ago, ariotofmyown said:

Everything you say up to the "but" I agree with.

In fact, I pretty much agree with all of it. Except the tone seems to be suggesting that this 'certain element' is something that needs to be at the forefront of people's minds. 

Basically, a massive social movement for change attracts a few idiots looking for trouble. 

The counter protest only attracts a few idiots looking for trouble. 

My concern is that the few idiots aren’t a few. There are too many on both sides. My reality is, that it is those idiots that do the real harm to society. When society is balanced and reasoned, its majority dismisses a tasteless joke as an embarrassment that demeans  the teller more than it harms anyone, and a statue is something we learn from. I do think that minority should be at the forefront because they are the road block to progress. 

[i-Ram]

4 hours ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Literally nothing you say makes sense, despite a large number of fellow posters agreeing with you. I suppose that having a man who states that there is 'no ducking struggle' and admits that he can't conceive of a single measure to 'advance racial equality', yet openly sermonises on the subject, seems not remotely ironic to them at all. 

It seems to me that the viewpoints of @Needlesh and @Jourdan are not too dissimilar. The language is a little different, but that can be expected because of inequalities. One is an English teacher.

You have opted not to respond to Jourdan’s posts to date, neither @Eddie. I genuinely would also like to learn your take on his comments.

As for the last line of the quote above, I don’t think Needlesh was saying he personally couldn’t conceive of a sinlgle measure to advance racial equality. He was calling out Eddie as a soundbite generator and asking him “What more can we do to advance racial equality? What practical step, right now, would you advocate?”  Again I would welcome your, and Eddie’s, considered thoughts on that. No soundbites Eddie remember.

[Sasha]

Has anybody read black lives matter demands on their website?  Complete abolition of the police force. ALL drugs to be legalised.  Just a few nuggets of wisdom.  This is comedy gold :-     

 

[djfred84]

Talk Radio LOL they are unbiased ha ha ?

[djfred84]

So we can Boil it down to we have made massive progress in terms of race but more needs to be done, However As long as what needs to be done does not negatively effect us white people or hurt our feelings. 

 

[djfred84]

12 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I saw Gary McFarlane’s interview on Talk Radio and I saw John Boyega’s speech from Hyde Park and sadly I wasn’t swayed.

I am still really struggling with this movement because I think it has been highly politicised and it doesn’t really cut to the core of modern day issues in black society.

People are framing it as them v us, blacks v whites or blacks v the establishment when it’s not the real fight that needs to be fought. One could argue more damaging problems that are prevalent in black communities are just being wilfully ignored.

The black community has to look inwardly first and address problems within - the crime, the violence, the murders, the gangs, the misogyny and mistreatment of women, the poor family structures and dynamics, the stigma readily attached to anyone within the black community who dares to be different.

People don’t want to talk about it but black people can be some of the most intolerant people in society and its very own community is massively divided.

For example if you are black and you don’t blindly follow this movement, you can be labelled a coon, an Uncle Tom, an undercover racist, a white sympathiser, a champion for white supremacy.

All we are seeing is people are being coerced into solidarity and unity and being spoon fed guilt inducing narratives, when it needs to be a more organic process.

Don’t get me wrong, this is not self hate. There is so much value, strength, beauty and honour in being black, but if you refuse to shine a light on yourself, it takes a lot of nerve to shine it on others. 

Imagine being gay and black. Imagine being transgender and black. Imagine being in an interracial relationship and being black, and so on. You can be derided, ostracised, abused, and even in some cases killed because it’s not the norm and looked down upon in black society. 

I can honestly say it can be more difficult to find acceptance, love and support in your very own community than it can be in wider society. For me, I believe you have to get your own house in order before you start landscaping other people’s gardens. I am not sure enough black people are prepared to do that.

Maybe the reason for the guilt is for the last 12 years we've all been complicit in voting in a succession governments that have actually taken race relations backwards a few years, also how do you know the negative aspects of the blm community are bought the fore by design. People like akala should be promoted more but are not and everything david lammy says is just brushed aside.

[Wolfie]

22 hours ago, rynny said:

 

 

No question it's a disgusting thing to do but why did the BBC choose to sensationalise it by repeatedly reporting it as "urinating on" the memorial, with a photo clearly demonstrating that it wasn't. A pathetic exaggeration which makes you wonder how much you can trust them on anything.

I notice this morning, they've changed it to "at" or "next to". Presumably somebody has pulled them up on it.

 

 

[i-Ram]

23 minutes ago, djfred84 said:

So we can Boil it down to we have made massive progress in terms of race but more needs to be done, However As long as what needs to be done does not negatively effect us white people or hurt our feelings. 

Spin us another one DJFred.

[A Ram for All Seasons]

22 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

No question it's a disgusting thing to do but why did the BBC choose to sensationalise it by repeatedly reporting it as "urinating on" the memorial, with a photo clearly demonstrating that it wasn't. A pathetic exaggeration which makes you wonder how much you can trust them on anything.

I notice this morning, they've changed it to "at" or "next to". Presumably somebody has pulled them up on it.

 

 

All depends on whether he was sober enough to pee in a straight line.

[ariotofmyown]

3 hours ago, Jourdan said:

I would love to think that the BLM movement is just about racial equality, fighting the good fight and for a simple and straightforward cause. 

For some, I am sure it is. But to be honest, you only have to do a little digging to realise that for a significant number, racial equality may not even be at the heart of the agenda and for the majority of people that are at the core of the movement, it is rather more nuanced and politicised and not even coming from a place of wanting equality and inclusion.

 

Good news, in my experience of talking and listening to people at work about BLM, it's everything that is in your first paragraph.

[ariotofmyown]

41 minutes ago, djfred84 said:

So we can Boil it down to we have made massive progress in terms of race but more needs to be done, However As long as what needs to be done does not negatively effect us white people or hurt our feelings. 

 

I've been silently sobbing since they pulled down that statue in Bristol. What's next? The removal of another racist statue? Where will it end!

[ariotofmyown]

37 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

No question it's a disgusting thing to do but why did the BBC choose to sensationalise it by repeatedly reporting it as "urinating on" the memorial, with a photo clearly demonstrating that it wasn't. A pathetic exaggeration which makes you wonder how much you can trust them on anything.

I notice this morning, they've changed it to "at" or "next to". Presumably somebody has pulled them up on it.

 

 

I'd rather they focused on the racists who were doing Nazi salutes and throwing stuff at the police. Potentially a worse crime than peeing in the street.