The Politics Thread 2020

[Eddie]

The Fawlty Towers "The Germans" episode was edited by the BBC in 2013 to remove the repeated use of the "N" word which the Major repeatedly used in reference to the West Indian cricket team and the "W" word in reference to Indians. This was done with the blessing of John Cleese, who approved the expurgated version, and the edited version is/was available to view on iPlayer.

The version which UKTV pulled was (or at least as I have been told) the unedited (pre-2013) version.

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

10 minutes ago, Eddie said:

The Fawlty Towers "The Germans" episode was edited by the BBC in 2013 to remove the repeated use of the "N" word which the Major repeatedly used in reference to the West Indian cricket team and the "W" word in reference to Indians. This was done with the blessing of John Cleese, who approved the expurgated version, and the edited version is/was available to view on iPlayer.

The version which UKTV pulled was (or at least as I have been told) the unedited (pre-2013) version.

In which case they were absolutely right to pull it.

[Anag Ram]

19 minutes ago, Archied said:

Churchill statues ? 
I don’t give a dam whether they are there or not ,,, why ( before the big outrage)

it was the ordinary men and boys of this country and other countries of all colours and creeds that laid down their lives that are the hero’s not Churchill , people lose that fact far too easily and that’s perhaps why we end up with controversial statues and monuments 

On that point it’s more than possible that a number of the brave men and women that lost their lives were racist and homophobic in outlook because of the prevailing culture of that era.

Should we be removing their names from memorials up and down the country?

Please be clear that my view is that we should all reconsider our attitudes and actively listen to those who feel disadvantaged. That’s the only way we can take this forward.

I am just very concerned that too much focus is being placed on the past. We can’t change that. 

Let’s get some meaningful discussion going so that we establish a level playing field for all.

[i-Ram]

34 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Who would notice if they pulled Allo Allo?

In other parts of this country we are not so blasé about things going missing all the time.

[AndyinLiverpool]

47 minutes ago, Eddie said:

The Fawlty Towers "The Germans" episode was edited by the BBC in 2013 to remove the repeated use of the "N" word which the Major repeatedly used in reference to the West Indian cricket team and the "W" word in reference to Indians. This was done with the blessing of John Cleese, who approved the expurgated version, and the edited version is/was available to view on iPlayer.

The version which UKTV pulled was (or at least as I have been told) the unedited (pre-2013) version.

Major: I must have been keen on her because I took her to see India.

Basil: India?

Major: At the Oval...

[Alph]

1 hour ago, Archied said:

Churchill statues ? 
I don’t give a dam whether they are there or not ,,, why ( before the big outrage)

it was the ordinary men and boys of this country and other countries of all colours and creeds that laid down their lives that are the hero’s not Churchill , people lose that fact far too easily and that’s perhaps why we end up with controversial statues and monuments 

There are memorials to those people too. 

It's the same for any great leader of the past. Even the ones that supposedly lead by example and from the front such as Alexander. Alexander wasn't in the phalanx. Julius Caesar and Hannibal had reputations for sharing hardships but i think we can safely say their suffering was the least of any man that campaigned under them

Churchill had a country to lead. He had to pick which decisions to make that would effect the lives of all soldiers, all civilians. 

That's why we celebrate generals and kings etc. Not for their personal risk. 

I show respect to the armed forces whenever there is an opportunity. They are celebrated and should continue to be. Even if we don't agree with the wars they fight. They don't pick the battlefields. They can't refuse to go to Iraq or Vietnam or any other controversial wars.

In football the results always come down to the manager too. 

[Stive Pesley]

2 hours ago, cstand said:

The left wing was part of the angry mob that pulled the statue down in Bristol the police stood by and did nothing.

Which has nothing to do with Fawlty Towers, so god knows why that's your comeback

The Colston Statue had been a bone of contention for quite a number of years, there were groups actively campaigning for it's removal.

That's the difference I'm talking about. No one was campaigning for Fawlty Towers to be taken off some channel that no one watches

The angry mob threat to Fawlty Towers is one imagined entirely in your head.

We're being played. The "where will it end??" hand-wringing by the high cholestrol brigade is exactly as manufactured

[Eddie]

So am I right in assuming that the ones who were furious at the (temporary) removal of Series 1 Episode 6 ("The Germans") have now calmed down a little since it was pointed out that the reason it was pulled from UKTV wasn't 'political correctness gone mad'?

[AndyinLiverpool]

18 minutes ago, Eddie said:

So am I right in assuming that the ones who were furious at the (temporary) removal of Series 1 Episode 6 ("The Germans") have now calmed down a little since it was pointed out that the reason it was pulled from UKTV wasn't 'political correctness gone mad'?

They will find something else to froth about.

[TuffLuff]

Cummings Round 2!

[jimmyp]

50 minutes ago, Eddie said:

So am I right in assuming that the ones who were furious at the (temporary) removal of Series 1 Episode 6 ("The Germans") have now calmed down a little since it was pointed out that the reason it was pulled from UKTV wasn't 'political correctness gone mad'?

John Cleese on removal of episode:

“The Major was an old fossil left over from decades before. We were not supporting his views, we were making fun of them,” said Cleese, who knew nothing of UKTV's move until this masthead contacted him. “If they can’t see that, if people are too stupid to see that, what can one say?”

Cleese was critical of BBC management for bowing to pressure to purge its catalogue of “problematic” material in the wake of global Black Lives Matter protests without assessing that material on a more nuanced basis.

 

“A lot of the people in charge now at the BBC just want to hang onto their jobs,” he said. “If a few people get excited they pacify them rather than standing their ground as they would have done 30 or 40 years ago.”

 

https://www.smh.com.au/culture/tv-and-radio/john-cleese-slams-uktv-decision-to-remove-fawlty-towers-episode-as-stupid-20200612-p5523w.html

 

 

[Eddie]

Just now, jimmyp said:

John Cleese on removal of episode:

“The Major was an old fossil left over from decades before. We were not supporting his views, we were making fun of them,” said Cleese, who knew nothing of UKTV's move until this masthead contacted him. “If they can’t see that, if people are too stupid to see that, what can one say?”

Cleese was critical of BBC management for bowing to pressure to purge its catalogue of “problematic” material in the wake of global Black Lives Matter protests without assessing that material on a more nuanced basis.

 

“A lot of the people in charge now at the BBC just want to hang onto their jobs,” he said. “If a few people get excited they pacify them rather than standing their ground as they would have done 30 or 40 years ago.”

 

https://www.smh.com.au/culture/tv-and-radio/john-cleese-slams-uktv-decision-to-remove-fawlty-towers-episode-as-stupid-20200612-p5523w.html

 

 

The 'N' and 'W' word references were removed from the BBC version for transmission seven years ago in order to facilitate the broadcasting of the show at a children-friendly time, and that was with the approval of Cleese.

Where was the pathetic outrage from the extreme right then?

https://www.theguardian.com/media/mediamonkeyblog/2013/jan/23/fawlty-towers-gets-chop-bbc

 

 

[Andicis]

Seeing statues have to be boarded up so they aren't vandalised is just sad. As I feared with the removal of Colston, it sets a precedent that ripping statues down is okay. Now it's just getting ridiculous. Time to check CCTV and punish all agitators with a jail sentence and shut down any new riots before they start.

[jimmyp]

9 minutes ago, Eddie said:

The 'N' and 'W' word references were removed from the BBC version for transmission seven years ago in order to facilitate the broadcasting of the show at a children-friendly time, and that was with the approval of Cleese.

Where was the pathetic outrage from the extreme right then?

https://www.theguardian.com/media/mediamonkeyblog/2013/jan/23/fawlty-towers-gets-chop-bbc

 

 

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/01/23/vote-fawlty-towers-racist-language-manual-basil_n_2532797.html

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2266738/amp/Censorship-row-BBC-cuts-racist-lines-classic-Fawlty-Towers-episode.html

 

People were complaining back then also.

[Eddie]

8 minutes ago, jimmyp said:

https://m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/01/23/vote-fawlty-towers-racist-language-manual-basil_n_2532797.html

 

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2266738/amp/Censorship-row-BBC-cuts-racist-lines-classic-Fawlty-Towers-episode.html

 

People were complaining back then also.

Racists were complaining back then.

[jimmyp]

5 minutes ago, Eddie said:

Racists were complaining back then.

You call them whatever you like.

i wouldn’t use the word "racist" especially when used as an "accusation" or "smear word" because:

It breeds bitterness and polarization, not a spirit of pragmatic reasonableness in confronting our difficult problems.

[GboroRam]

16 minutes ago, jimmyp said:

You call them whatever you like.

i wouldn’t use the word "racist" especially when used as an "accusation" or "smear word" because:

It breeds bitterness and polarization, not a spirit of pragmatic reasonableness in confronting our difficult problems.

Strange, because the N word that has been taken out breeds bitterness and polarisation. Certainly wouldn't breed a spirit of pragmatic reasonableness in any conversation now. I'm not in the slightest surprised it's been removed.

Even in the 30 odd years since transmission, times have moved on so much I can't imagine any case when that word becomes acceptable. Not coming out of the mouth of a white person.

[i-Ram]

30 minutes ago, Eddie said:

[Stive Pesley]

A pretty decent summary I saw today from a BAME commentator (so don't say anything to me about it that you wouldn't say to their face)

Quote

Racist language does sometimes have a place in the mouths of characters. There are times where it makes sense, dependent on who’s doing the writing, who’s doing the speaking, what’s going on in the narrative and who it is you’re really laughing at. It’s context specific.

However, it’s also the case that the context of a work - film, telly, whatever - is bigger than that piece of content on its own. It’s only possible to say what something 'means' when a work is in conversation with its audience - which is where sometimes, the defence of saying 'ah, but this is *really* a send up of xyz bigotry' falls down. A significant part of your audience is made up of people who just really find it funny to hear someone say the N word, or Paki, or whatever slur it is, regardless of whether the intention is to skewer the person who’s saying it. 

This is a country where we decided to distinguish between 'racism' and 'casual racism', as if calling someone a wog while tittering through a mouthful of Hula Hoops made it somehow jocular.  If we’re being honest about ourselves as a society, we’ve created refuges of acceptable racism under the auspices of banter.

You can’t make hard and rigid rules when it comes to art. And I don’t think anyone is sincerely suggesting that either - what’s being contested is whether we can let what is culturally valued move with the times.

 

[jimmyp]

19 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

Strange, because the N word that has been taken out breeds bitterness and polarisation. Certainly wouldn't breed a spirit of pragmatic reasonableness in any conversation now. I'm not in the slightest surprised it's been removed.

Even in the 30 odd years since transmission, times have moved on so much I can't imagine any case when that word becomes acceptable. Not coming out of the mouth of a white person.

The n word can very definitely be used to breed bitterness and polarisation, I don’t disagree. 

If you believe it was used for that reason in Fawlty towers then thats your opinion. John Cleese however would disagree.

I also haven’t voiced my opinion on the episode. I merely explained to Eddie why I wouldn’t of labeled the people who are complaining of the censorship as being racist.