The Politics Thread 2020

[ariotofmyown]

10 minutes ago, Archied said:

Only fools and horses must go too , the Denzel stuff and some siek crash helmets and lots of other stuff make it unacceptable, get David Jason and his nasty stuff off tv now

There are a few episodes of Fools and Horses that haven't been shown for years due to the racist language.

[Archied]

4 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

There are a few episodes of Fools and Horses that haven't been shown for years due to the racist language.

Plenty still being shown that can be called offensive and removed

[Archied]

5 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

There are a few episodes of Fools and Horses that haven't been shown for years due to the racist language.

Shouldn’t all Fawlty towers be removed due to treatment of Spanish waiter ?

[Spanish]

I think my campaign to get Alf garnett back on tv might not succeed

[Archied]

Porridge with Ronnie barker should be taken off right away , as a Scot the portrayal of McKay is extremely offensive stereotyping 

[Gone]

Churchill covered up, in the capital city of our Country. 

[Archied]

The simpsons pulled on the character apu but it’s ok to stereotype the ginger Scots willie, ?

[ariotofmyown]

Thought this was a pretty fascinating study into Coronavirus.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/11/british-clampdown-on-non-essential-travel-came-a-week-too-late

1) I think it's pretty good news for the future as it shows it arrived here from 1300+ sources. The real problem would have been if it had arrived here from 3 or 4 sources and that was enough to spread everywhere. As long as we ensure that loads of infected people are not arriving in the country, we might be ok.

2) Fascinating the information they can find out from studying the virus. 

3) It was difficult to understand at the time why we were so slow to close our borders, especially to infected countries. I posted this before, but on 6th March my brother called me as he had just listened to an interview with a guy on the radio who had just landed at Gatwick from Northern Italy. His arrival was completely the same as normal, then he got public transport into London. We were assuming, and so were other people I spoke too, that safeguards would already be in place at this point.

At work, we told someone returning from Hong Kong in Jan and another from Milan in Feb, to stay at home for 2 weeks. I went to Morocco in Feb half term and had to fill in forms on arrival on recent travel and health history before being allowed in. I presume steps would have been taken if I had recently been in a highly infected place.

The research says that most of the infections came in from France, Italy and Spain. It doesn't seem like rocket science to have acted quicker and more efficiently to limit the amount of infected people entering the country. Surely there are plans in place to deal with the threat of infections from certain countries? 

For a government who has gained so much power from inventing and exaggerating the threat of foreigners, they seemed reluctant to act when there was a clear and present danger.

[GboroRam]

11 minutes ago, Archied said:

Only fools and horses must go too , the Denzel stuff and some siek crash helmets and lots of other stuff make it unacceptable, get David Jason and his nasty stuff off tv now

I've not been particularly vocal on this subject. I get the objection to statues and monuments, but I was thinking that there's a clear difference between building something in commemoration to a person with a hugely objectionable history and, say, a comedy on prime-time TV. But maybe I'm viewing it through the eyes of a safe white man?

I saw a headline on one of the pop-up clickbait pages, basically saying "it wasn't army banter, it was racism" and it got me thinking. Maybe we're seeing an end to the amusing racial stereotype style of comedy. Perhaps some things are more harmful than I realise. Maybe people let the small stuff go because there's bigger things to be angry about.

The discussion around language and racism is widening, which has to be a good thing.

Less than forty years ago there were people saying it was "political correctness gone mad" when Love Thy Neighbour and Mind Your Language became unacceptable TV. Nowadays we don't have any problem with removing these programs as we've moved on so far. Maybe we're growing up even more and realising that, what is seen as harmless comedy, "banter" (if you don't mind that cliched word) - is something more sinister but just doesn't get called out as often as it could.

I'm torn on it. Only Fools and Horses and Fawlty Towers weren't written with any malice, but I guess you could say that about Mind Your Language. They are products of their times. The Germans episode of FT was consciously written with the stereotypes in mind - the young Germans were selected because their ages made them ludicrous people to associate with the Nazis, and the Colonel is a caricature of old stereotypes in his own right. But maybe I'm not close enough to the butt of the jokes to understand how sensitivities are affected by this.

But as for the statues, tear them down. If you want to make a monument to a movement or to an idea, that's fine. If that movement is shown to be for a wrong cause there's little objection to taking it down. But monuments to people are prone to a lot of criticism, as people are very complex things. At least the Michael Jackson statue came down a long time ago, which can only be a good thing.

[Archied]

5 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I've not been particularly vocal on this subject. I get the objection to statues and monuments, but I was thinking that there's a clear difference between building something in commemoration to a person with a hugely objectionable history and, say, a comedy on prime-time TV. But maybe I'm viewing it through the eyes of a safe white man?

I saw a headline on one of the pop-up clickbait pages, basically saying "it wasn't army banter, it was racism" and it got me thinking. Maybe we're seeing an end to the amusing racial stereotype style of comedy. Perhaps some things are more harmful than I realise. Maybe people let the small stuff go because there's bigger things to be angry about.

The discussion around language and racism is widening, which has to be a good thing.

Less than forty years ago there were people saying it was "political correctness gone mad" when Love Thy Neighbour and Mind Your Language became unacceptable TV. Nowadays we don't have any problem with removing these programs as we've moved on so far. Maybe we're growing up even more and realising that, what is seen as harmless comedy, "banter" (if you don't mind that cliched word) - is something more sinister but just doesn't get called out as often as it could.

I'm torn on it. Only Fools and Horses and Fawlty Towers weren't written with any malice, but I guess you could say that about Mind Your Language. They are products of their times. The Germans episode of FT was consciously written with the stereotypes in mind - the young Germans were selected because their ages made them ludicrous people to associate with the Nazis, and the Colonel is a caricature of old stereotypes in his own right. But maybe I'm not close enough to the butt of the jokes to understand how sensitivities are affected by this.

But as for the statues, tear them down. If you want to make a monument to a movement or to an idea, that's fine. If that movement is shown to be for a wrong cause there's little objection to taking it down. But monuments to people are prone to a lot of criticism, as people are very complex things. At least the Michael Jackson statue came down a long time ago, which can only be a good thing.

There’s a proper grown up discussion that needs to be had around all this stuff / monuments included but it needs to be had by the level headed not the easystreet hero’s That seem to infest every issue now and the extremists on the other side , not the throw away call it out wherever we see cliche brigade either ,

watch the clip of the Colston statue removal and see the fat white bloke , belly out bashing the statue ,could just as easy be at a National front demo or at a football fracas ,same visual, same rabid behaviour 

[JuanFloEvraTheCocu'sNesta]

On the TV show thing, the streaming platforms that are removing certain programs are prefectly entitled to do so. They are free to carry whichever programing they like, that is their prerogative as a business as much as it is our prerogative as consumers to decide wether we continue to subscribe to them or use them.

It's a bit like when I raise the issue of food standards in our trade deal with the US and I am told that "It's fine, the market will decide". If you really care that Netflix, UKTV and the like are removing shows then show them how much you care by ditching your subscription.

As for my opinion on the matter (not that anyone asked) it's all about context. Simply banishing a show because something is present in it is too heavy handed. For example 'Come Fly With Me' has Mat Lucas and David Walliams blacking up and doing accents just for the sake of it, which I do find to be too much. However 'Peep Show' has a scene where a character is essentially blacked up, but this is performed in a totally different context which in my view is designed as an attack on racism. I do however also appreciate that I am not exactly qualified to tell people what is racist and what isn't, so my opinion likely carries absolutely no weight in this discussion.

 

[ariotofmyown]

7 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I've not been particularly vocal on this subject. I get the objection to statues and monuments, but I was thinking that there's a clear difference between building something in commemoration to a person with a hugely objectionable history and, say, a comedy on prime-time TV. But maybe I'm viewing it through the eyes of a safe white man?

I saw a headline on one of the pop-up clickbait pages, basically saying "it wasn't army banter, it was racism" and it got me thinking. Maybe we're seeing an end to the amusing racial stereotype style of comedy. Perhaps some things are more harmful than I realise. Maybe people let the small stuff go because there's bigger things to be angry about.

The discussion around language and racism is widening, which has to be a good thing.

Less than forty years ago there were people saying it was "political correctness gone mad" when Love Thy Neighbour and Mind Your Language became unacceptable TV. Nowadays we don't have any problem with removing these programs as we've moved on so far. Maybe we're growing up even more and realising that, what is seen as harmless comedy, "banter" (if you don't mind that cliched word) - is something more sinister but just doesn't get called out as often as it could.

I'm torn on it. Only Fools and Horses and Fawlty Towers weren't written with any malice, but I guess you could say that about Mind Your Language. They are products of their times. The Germans episode of FT was consciously written with the stereotypes in mind - the young Germans were selected because their ages made them ludicrous people to associate with the Nazis, and the Colonel is a caricature of old stereotypes in his own right. But maybe I'm not close enough to the butt of the jokes to understand how sensitivities are affected by this.

But as for the statues, tear them down. If you want to make a monument to a movement or to an idea, that's fine. If that movement is shown to be for a wrong cause there's little objection to taking it down. But monuments to people are prone to a lot of criticism, as people are very complex things. At least the Michael Jackson statue came down a long time ago, which can only be a good thing.

Interesting post, although perhaps it could be the other way round.

Doubt many people cared too much about statues before, although you can see why they might do when they discover more about the person behind it. 

But the family friendly light entertainment style 'banter' does a great job of helping to normalise the laughing at of people who are different. I can see why the people who grew up chuckling at racist slurs think it's PC gone mad when they are now told it's not acceptable. And you also had proper racists like Jim Davidson presenting family tv shows like Big Break on the rabidly left wing bbc. If you ever saw him doing some racist stuff, well that must be ok as he is on Big Break right (as well as officially on the Tory election campaign in 92).

I'm a bit like that with Apu from the Simpsons. I loved that show and that character, but have also read how people were adversely impacted by that character, especially as Indian people pretty much didn't exist on TV in those days, especially in America. My young kids love the Simpsons now, fortunately Asians exist beyond corner shop owners now.

[Mick Brolly]

47 minutes ago, Archied said:

The simpsons pulled on the character apu but it’s ok to stereotype the ginger Scots willie, ?

[TimRam]

It's been announced that the "protest" groups won't now "march" in London due to, I quote, "threat from many hate groups". 'In other words people who want to protect the memory (war memorials) of our loved ones who died so the idiotic "protestors" could cause mayhem.

[Eddie]

52 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said:

For a government who has gained so much power from inventing and exaggerating the threat of foreigners, they seemed reluctant to act when there was a clear and present danger.

The government were extremely busy at the time, working on Boris's divorce/financial settlement from wife 2.

[BondJovi]

26 minutes ago, GboroRam said:

I've not been particularly vocal on this subject. I get the objection to statues and monuments, but I was thinking that there's a clear difference between building something in commemoration to a person with a hugely objectionable history and, say, a comedy on prime-time TV. But maybe I'm viewing it through the eyes of a safe white man?

I saw a headline on one of the pop-up clickbait pages, basically saying "it wasn't army banter, it was racism" and it got me thinking. Maybe we're seeing an end to the amusing racial stereotype style of comedy. Perhaps some things are more harmful than I realise. Maybe people let the small stuff go because there's bigger things to be angry about.

The discussion around language and racism is widening, which has to be a good thing.

Less than forty years ago there were people saying it was "political correctness gone mad" when Love Thy Neighbour and Mind Your Language became unacceptable TV. Nowadays we don't have any problem with removing these programs as we've moved on so far. Maybe we're growing up even more and realising that, what is seen as harmless comedy, "banter" (if you don't mind that cliched word) - is something more sinister but just doesn't get called out as often as it could.

I'm torn on it. Only Fools and Horses and Fawlty Towers weren't written with any malice, but I guess you could say that about Mind Your Language. They are products of their times. The Germans episode of FT was consciously written with the stereotypes in mind - the young Germans were selected because their ages made them ludicrous people to associate with the Nazis, and the Colonel is a caricature of old stereotypes in his own right. But maybe I'm not close enough to the butt of the jokes to understand how sensitivities are affected by this.

But as for the statues, tear them down. If you want to make a monument to a movement or to an idea, that's fine. If that movement is shown to be for a wrong cause there's little objection to taking it down. But monuments to people are prone to a lot of criticism, as people are very complex things. At least the Michael Jackson statue came down a long time ago, which can only be a good thing.

Just on the TV part. As a nation our general response to difficult subjects or situations is comedy. I fear we sanitise the comedy, we sanitise the subject. The whole point of satire is to mock the ridiculous nature of it all. The answer to where this goes is that you can't stereotype anyone. Maybe that is a good thing, I don't know but we don't need to delete the past to get there.

I grew up watching the Simpsons,I watched Fawlty Towers with my parents. I don't view all Italians as mafia, all Scottish people as kilt wearing groundskeepers.  Being English in a lot of American shows and films, tended to make you posh, drink tea and be a villain. You can find offense in all of it if you look hard enough.

If we could all laugh at the stupidity of it, we would all get along much better. Instead I see the generating of a climate of fear of what you say in case you cause offense. It keeps coming back to context. Do these shows promote racist views? Do they highlight actually how stupid such views are? Do you have to believe something to find it funny? Does it make me a racist to say I find the Fawlty Towers episode in question hilarious? The only real characters who come out of that badly are the two Englishmen,Basil and Major. What does that say.

Equally, we can use them as tools to educate.

[cstand]

1 hour ago, GboroRam said:

I've not been particularly vocal on this subject. I get the objection to statues and monuments, but I was thinking that there's a clear difference between building something in commemoration to a person with a hugely objectionable history and, say, a comedy on prime-time TV. But maybe I'm viewing it through the eyes of a safe white man?

I saw a headline on one of the pop-up clickbait pages, basically saying "it wasn't army banter, it was racism" and it got me thinking. Maybe we're seeing an end to the amusing racial stereotype style of comedy. Perhaps some things are more harmful than I realise. Maybe people let the small stuff go because there's bigger things to be angry about.

The discussion around language and racism is widening, which has to be a good thing.

Less than forty years ago there were people saying it was "political correctness gone mad" when Love Thy Neighbour and Mind Your Language became unacceptable TV. Nowadays we don't have any problem with removing these programs as we've moved on so far. Maybe we're growing up even more and realising that, what is seen as harmless comedy, "banter" (if you don't mind that cliched word) - is something more sinister but just doesn't get called out as often as it could.

I'm torn on it. Only Fools and Horses and Fawlty Towers weren't written with any malice, but I guess you could say that about Mind Your Language. They are products of their times. The Germans episode of FT was consciously written with the stereotypes in mind - the young Germans were selected because their ages made them ludicrous people to associate with the Nazis, and the Colonel is a caricature of old stereotypes in his own right. But maybe I'm not close enough to the butt of the jokes to understand how sensitivities are affected by this.

But as for the statues, tear them down. If you want to make a monument to a movement or to an idea, that's fine. If that movement is shown to be for a wrong cause there's little objection to taking it down. But monuments to people are prone to a lot of criticism, as people are very complex things. At least the Michael Jackson statue came down a long time ago, which can only be a good thing.

So we can build statues for a movement or an idea Brexit statue is fine then for our independence from the EU?

[WhiteHorseRam]

10 hours ago, Highgate said:

The crimes of the other imperial powers weren't your responsibility.

I am not responsible for any Imperial crimes  ... 

I could now disgorge a huge essay on your points but I don't think many others here are that interested. I could go on and on ..... but I shan't.

As a final point on this subject (and nothing to do with you)  ...

I see that as of this morning the Police have felt obliged to put barriers around the Cenotaph. 

I am disgusted that anyone would try to damage the national monument commemorating the sacrifice of millions.

 

[cstand]

Alfred Fagon statue damaged in Bristol hope all the people who want statues torn down by angry mobs are happy with themselves. 
Will this have to be covered now?

[WhiteHorseRam]

12 hours ago, reverendo de duivel said:

Serious question.""

If they announced those easings tomorrow, would you trot along to the pub and match?

I WILL NEVER TAKE THE PUB FOR GRANTED EVER AGAIN.

I AM DESPERATE FOR THE NEXT TURGID RAMS 0 - 0 DRAW