Mid Table (19/20/21) - Please and Thank You

[Bubbles]

13 minutes ago, Rampage said:

Our squad is of top eight standard. Let us see what Santa brings and hoe the Rooney pp lays. Scraping into top six is a realistic possibility if the defence tightens up.

At this stage, I'd say top 12, but when Roooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooney comes in that'll change, plus a couple signings and we'll be gravy granules 

[Andicis]

19 minutes ago, Hanny said:

even if that means mid table finishes this and next year. 

But how can you be so comfortable writing off next season before it has even begun? 

[Hanny]

11 minutes ago, KCG said:

Why not just make every season a "transition" season? Let's face it the last 10 have been!

I assume you are being at least a little funny with your comment. But your comment does touch on what I think is partly to blame for Derby’s perpetual time in/around top eight; the team has never been allowed to have a transition year. It’s constantly been pushing for the top with the hope that One More Piece is all that’s needed.  

I simply don’t subscribe to the One More Piece theory. Football is far to complex(players health/ability/Manger strategies/owner motivations/etc) all change from year to year. Unless you’re a Prem club with the missing piece being a world class Winger to slot in with your other world class players... OMP theory doesn’t really seem to work.(without luck). 

Derby need time. Time it has not been given in recent years.

[Hanny]

43 minutes ago, Andicis said:

But how can you be so comfortable writing off next season before it has even begun? 

I guess I don’t see it as writing off next season. I see it as being comfortable with being mid table, if it means we are working towards  a more cohesive approach to improving the team. If we are perpetually not achieving promotion...let’s try something different; that’s sticking to a plan, not chopping and changing.

Which I assess takes at least a couple of years to accomplish. Given there are no big changes in philosophy. Players can come and go...fitting to a single vision is more important to me. I don’t want Derby to be a top eight team (which I think could be a reasonable argument for Derby every season). I want Derby to be a top two team. For that To happen, I think a couple years of struggle is needed to let Cocu build/shape the team in his image. 

[DCFC27]

16 hours ago, Hanny said:

In reality the best way to broach this subject would be a live discussion to best get clarity on statements without the hinderance of time lapse response / poor typing / length of typing needed to get across simple ideas / etc. However here we are. 

I’m unsure of what to expect from starting a topic that is more of an ongoing saga with numerous variables, as opposed to a one off pram-toy-toss argument over which Striker to start.

I’m also busy in life, as you are, so will not be able to respond as often as I’d like. So I hope this can be a bit of a slow burn discussion over time.

I guess my hope with this topic is to instill a little confidence, hope, and stability in a supporter base that seem to be teetering on the edge of a (for lack of a better term) breakdown of reality.

Derby are, and should be a Mid-Table team for this year and next (make moves if need be to fight for promotion in the 21/22 season). I think letting Cocu sort the squad and tactics over (at least) two seasons is the bare minimum can be done to see if a plan can take hold. 

What’s the harm in waiting if we are improving (which takes more time than a few months)? 

I can hear some of you already rolling your eyes...we should always be pushing for promotion...We belong there! 

Yes. I believe Derby would fit well in the Prem. But let’s do it with intention and understanding...not spray and pray.

If we allow Cocu time to fail (because that’s what is needed to discover any plausible path forward), I postulate we will look comfortable to survive the Prem come the 22/23 season (assuming 21/22 is the push year).

Now. It will take two years plus of hair pulling confusion games (not all games...but fail we must to see growth), and I hope you all can stomach that...I know I can.

I will stop here on my first post. As I said, I hope this can become a slow burn discussion. I’ve opened with a very basic; we should give Cocu time and space to fail thesis. Let’s discuss why that would be good...or not good. Simples.

COYR!

P.S.: Of course as a supporter I will always be happy to take a flight up the table with a dramatic playoff screamer. But- would actually prefer intention and understanding.

Just wrong... every year we have the same. We’re not good enough we need to give the lads time to build? What are we building? It must be huge because it’s been 10+ in the making! 
Firstly our squad is still a decent squad when compared with the rest of the league, we’re still a top 6 contender. At the moment we haven’t hit form due to the difficulty of our first 10 games, injuries etc. But we’re only 4 points from playoffs and 6 from top 2 (and we’re not playing well at all! Imagine when we do pick up some form!!!)  Positively though apart from two obscure games this season we have been hard to beat. We have drawn a number of games where we should have won. 

Barnsley 

WBA 

Swansea

Cardiff 

(You could make an argument for Stoke!) 

at least 8 points where we came away thinking we were the better team and should have won the game. 
 

We have Rooney coming in (not that he’s the messiah but I would hope he’ll give us a lift. Give Cocu the players he wants in January and we will be well in the mix come May. 
 

Just to point out how difficult it is to understand your long term plan. We haven’t had a manager for consecutive preseasons since Steve Mac I believe. What makes us think  otherwise... 

truth of the matter is if your manager is doing badly we’ll sack him and if he’s doing well someone will pinch him Rowett to Stoke/Lampard to Chelsea... looking further afield potter to BHA/ Jones to Stoke. 
 

I like the fantasy, but there are very few teams that manage to keep their manager for a few years to build and get promotion. 
 

Key to this league is to have a decent squad that can keep in touch with the top 6 until January and invest wisely in players that will take you across the line see Mitrovic and Fulham/ Mings and Villa.

 

 

 

[Andicis]

10 minutes ago, Hanny said:

I guess I don’t see it as writing off next season. I see it as being comfortable with being mid table, if it means we are working towards  a more cohesive approach to improving the team. If we are perpetually not achieving promotion...let’s try something different; that’s sticking to a plan, not chopping and changing.

Which I assess takes at least a couple of years to accomplish. Given there are no big changes in philosophy. Players can come and go...fitting to a single vision is more important to me. I don’t want Derby to be a top eight team (which I think could be a reasonable argument for Derby every season). I want Derby to be a top two team. For that To happen, I think a couple years of struggle is needed to let Cocu build/shape the team in his image. 

But you realise that you can build but also challenge? They're not mutually exclusive. Why does have two bad years make us more likely to challenge top 2 then if we finish top 6 next year and don't get promoted? I struggle to see the logic. You don't have to be mid table dross to build, you can build from anywhere. Mid table is a write off.

[Hanny]

24 minutes ago, Andicis said:

But you realise that you can build but also challenge? They're not mutually exclusive. Why does have two bad years make us more likely to challenge top 2 then if we finish top 6 next year and don't get promoted? I struggle to see the logic. You don't have to be mid table dross to build, you can build from anywhere. Mid table is a write off.

I think your argument is fair. I would love to see this team challenge and build. But they haven't. My thinking is that it is in part because of a lack of stability in management/philosophy. The team seems to keep getting caught in that OneMorePiece theory of chopping and changing because we are so close every season. Part of my thinking is that when a team finds themselves around the playoff slots, they don't get to give ideas/players a try. You find yourself having to play someone like Huds (I like Huds...but he's not helping this team get to the Prem), and sticking to a system that fits your current best players (as opposed to maybe finding out if someone like Marriott can handle this level, but in a slightly different formation). 

I also don't think mid table is dross. Perhaps this comes down to a fundemental difference in how we respectively enjoy football? I can enjoy a mid table season watching to see if someone like Homes/Marriott are up to the task, and stake a claim as a solid player, or really see if Lowe can carve out a starting spot. These things really won't happen if we are challenging...because they can't be counted on...you go with someone like Huds, or Wags/Martin; they are safer. But they aren't going to really move the needle in regards to propelling the team up. 

Perhaps Homes/Marriott won't either...but we won't know if they don't have time. Like I said, I love watching football. The Story of it. The growth/regression of players abilities. The  challenges of a manager dealing with the real world issues that stem from players/life/circumstances. It's incredibly difficult(or lucky), to put a team together that has the talent/has the health/has the vision to get promotion. I enjoy watching the failures and successes. 

 

P.S. I already feel like my responses are too long. Which was my original concern with starting this thread. Oh well. I will try to be as succinct as I am able. 

[Hanny]

55 minutes ago, DcfcJB said:

Just wrong... every year we have the same. We’re not good enough we need to give the lads time to build? What are we building? It must be huge because it’s been 10+ in the making! 
Firstly our squad is still a decent squad when compared with the rest of the league, we’re still a top 6 contender. At the moment we haven’t hit form due to the difficulty of our first 10 games, injuries etc. But we’re only 4 points from playoffs and 6 from top 2 (and we’re not playing well at all! Imagine when we do pick up some form!!!)  Positively though apart from two obscure games this season we have been hard to beat. We have drawn a number of games where we should have won. 

Barnsley 

WBA 

Swansea

Cardiff 

(You could make an argument for Stoke!) 

at least 8 points where we came away thinking we were the better team and should have won the game. 
 

We have Rooney coming in (not that he’s the messiah but I would hope he’ll give us a lift. Give Cocu the players he wants in January and we will be well in the mix come May. 
 

Just to point out how difficult it is to understand your long term plan. We haven’t had a manager for consecutive preseasons since Steve Mac I believe. What makes us think  otherwise... 

truth of the matter is if your manager is doing badly we’ll sack him and if he’s doing well someone will pinch him Rowett to Stoke/Lampard to Chelsea... looking further afield potter to BHA/ Jones to Stoke. 
 

I like the fantasy, but there are very few teams that manage to keep their manager for a few years to build and get promotion. 
 

Key to this league is to have a decent squad that can keep in touch with the top 6 until January and invest wisely in players that will take you across the line see Mitrovic and Fulham/ Mings and Villa.

 

 

 

I agree this team could push for promotion. But that's not much of a plan (which to your point, may be a fruitless idea, given how much randomness there is in football... first 10 game draw/injuries/etc.). I just don't like the idea of pinning a promotion push on "Hope we don't get injured/this run of games 'should' be won". 

I hope we pickup some form, and make a push (as a supporter). As an armchair manager, I would like to see a more methodical approach to building the team up, and making the 'push' more inevitable. 

Like you said, could be a fantasy. But I like that fantasy:) 

coyr

[Andicis]

4 minutes ago, Hanny said:

I think your argument is fair. I would love to see this team challenge and build. But they haven't. My thinking is that it is in part because of a lack of stability in management/philosophy. The team seems to keep getting caught in that OneMorePiece theory of chopping and changing because we are so close every season. Part of my thinking is that when a team finds themselves around the playoff slots, they don't get to give ideas/players a try. You find yourself having to play someone like Huds (I like Huds...but he's not helping this team get to the Prem), and sticking to a system that fits your current best players (as opposed to maybe finding out if someone like Marriott can handle this level, but in a slightly different formation). 

I also don't think mid table is dross. Perhaps this comes down to a fundemental difference in how we respectively enjoy football? I can enjoy a mid table season watching to see if someone like Homes/Marriott are up to the task, and stake a claim as a solid player, or really see if Lowe can carve out a starting spot. These things really won't happen if we are challenging...because they can't be counted on...you go with someone like Huds, or Wags/Martin; they are safer. But they aren't going to really move the needle in regards to propelling the team up. 

Perhaps Homes/Marriott won't either...but we won't know if they don't have time. Like I said, I love watching football. The Story of it. The growth/regression of players abilities. The  challenges of a manager dealing with the real world issues that stem from players/life/circumstances. It's incredibly difficult(or lucky), to put a team together that has the talent/has the health/has the vision to get promotion. I enjoy watching the failures and successes. 

 

P.S. I already feel like my responses are too long. Which was my original concern with starting this thread. Oh well. I will try to be as succinct as I am able. 

And that is right to an extent, some teams do chop and change and don't give the younger players a try due to lack of reliability. But I don't think we're that team. We were bringing on Jason Knight in the last few minutes of games when we needed to see them out, despite having safer options to use. I think Cocu trusts in the younger players. I would also cite Tottenham for example, Poch always picks young players in games despite them being a challenging side. 

My point is that we can build and play younger players but also challenge at the right end of the table, and many sides have proven it. 

I do think mid table Championship is dross. I don't think the Championship is a particularly good league. I've seen Derby get into the playoffs despite being a rubbish side (see Rowett). The top few teams can be good, but as a whole the Championship isn't a great league in terms of quality. I'm sure it does come down to how we enjoy football. I enjoyed McClaren's side in 13/14 more than I've enjoyed any other Derby team I've watched. The football was top quality, phenomenal stuff. I didn't enjoy any of our hoofball managers in Pearson and Rowett, nor did I particularly enjoy Clement's boring style. 

I've gone off on a tangent a bit I think, but I can't get behind the idea that next year is automatically a mid table finish. If it turns out that way then so be it, but I really do think next year we have to start seeing progress.

[Millenniumram]

Derby fans in 2035 after another season in the championship... “Next season is a transition season, it’ll take time”

Writing seasons off for transition is absolute ******** imho. You have to have a long term strategy of course, but you can’t wait to make your challenge. Players won’t stay around forever, you can’t really build teams over the course of 3 or 4 years anymore. We’ve seen with our last two managers how quickly things change in football and you can be left starting again. You have to try and achieve what you want to achieve every season. Simple as.

[Tyler Durden]

What absolute twaddle 

[LeedsCityRam]

5 hours ago, KCG said:

Why not just make every season a "transition" season? Let's face it the last 10 have been!

Perhaps if we could keep a manager for longer than a year, they wouldn't need to be.

McClaren>Clement>Pearson>McClaren>Rowett>Lampard and the massive swings in playing style between them have set the club back after Clough did the donkey work previous to that.

[europia]

We are very average at this point in time, so mid table not inconceivable. `Next season more transition as Cocu hopefully acquires a few players who can adapt to his scheme of things. Season three under Philip Cocu, we should be challenging in the top six. 

[Wolfie20]

7 minutes ago, europia said:

We are very average at this point in time, so mid table not inconceivable. `Next season more transition as Cocu hopefully acquires a few players who can adapt to his scheme of things. Season three we should be challenging in the top six. 

I'd be disappointed if we don't make a top 6 challenge next season. Cocu has 2 windows to change the squad so we could see 3 maybe even 4 players come in who should better suit how the manager wants to play. Seven or eight of the current squad might still be regular starters, not forgetting Rooney's potential contribution.

[Curtains]

It is very important to keep the same manager in situ. 
 

Constant change of managers is a massive problem. 

[Coneheadjohn]

22 hours ago, Hanny said:

postulate

Mrs Cone is always trying to stick her finger up mine?

[KCG]

15 hours ago, Millenniumram said:

Derby fans in 2035 after another season in the championship... “Next season is a transition season, it’ll take time”

Writing seasons off for transition is absolute ******** imho. You have to have a long term strategy of course, but you can’t wait to make your challenge. Players won’t stay around forever, you can’t really build teams over the course of 3 or 4 years anymore. We’ve seen with our last two managers how quickly things change in football and you can be left starting again. You have to try and achieve what you want to achieve every season. Simple as.

Absolutely, as I have said numerous times before we have watched teams come up from the first and sail past us. This year it's likely another unfancied team will sail past us.

How can you have a transition year (year after ducking year!) when other teams will come and steal away your better players and put you back to square one?

The whole transition nonsense is a load of baalocks IMHO!!

[Millenniumram]

1 minute ago, KCG said:

Absolutely, as I have said numerous times before we have watched teams come up from the first and sail past us. This year it's likely another unfancied team will sail past us.

How can you have a transition year (year after ducking year!) when other teams will come and steal away your better players and put you back to square one?

The whole transition nonsense is a load of baalocks IMHO!!

Sums it up basically, especially when In these so called transition seasons we don’t Actually bring in any permanent transfers! Every year we start again regardless.

[Comrade 86]

20 hours ago, Rampage said:

Our squad is of top eight standard. Let us see what Santa brings and hoe the Rooney pp lays. Scraping into top six is a realistic possibility if the defence tightens up.

I'm rather hoping that this is the only time this season the words, Rooney, 'hoe' and 'lays' appear together in the same sentence.

[The Scarlet Pimpernel]

14 hours ago, Curtains said:

It is very important to keep the same manager in situ. 
 

Constant change of managers is a massive problem. 

Agreed curtains as long as we stick with the right manager which I think Phillip is..