DontTrustTheDevilInside Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 1 hour ago, reverendo de duivel said: Do you have any proof the owners son in a key scouting role, I've not heard that. As far as I'm aware, Mel's stepson was a part of the 'Own the Region' project, and any (voluntary, I may add) scouting he has done has been at a very local level concentrating on the kids coming into the academy, and therefore falls into the category you state is without complaint. This may have changed, so I'm happy to be proved wrong. https://www.dcfc.co.uk/page/whos-who 'head of emerging talent' but isn't academy or local so must be first team as the head scout mclaren also has this in his title. That to me implies exactly what we're talking about. Finding the emerging talent or unearthing the hidden gems Either we have no scouts for first team players or he is... Technical scouting to my knowledge is opposition planning and tactical planning/insight. 52 minutes ago, TommyPowel said: The point I was trying to make is imo the stability of the academy must be a great help to the scouts,Yes first team scout could suggest a number of players to the new manager every year but the club cannot sustain buying 4/6 new players every year 4-6 players for a club is not particularly high turnover the 8-10 we did for a few seasons was excessive and unsustainable. You would expect to lose a player or 2 a season to retirement/no longer being able to play at the level due to age 1 or 2 for end of contracts 1 or 2 fringe players frustrated and seeking fresh pastures 1 or 2 opportunity transfers (for a fee to a bigger/higher club) That's between 4 and 8 replacements needed without a change of manager etc. Maybe some filled by an academy... But still opportunity each season to make signings as part of normal course and squad development (that is assuming you rely on loans but the quantity not massively wavering season on season. So you lose x amount from the previous season and sign x also if in different positions) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukedcfc Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 I think 99% of this forum could find a better winger than our scouts. Lawrence, jozefzoon, Camara etc have been a disaster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyPowell Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 26 minutes ago, DontTrustTheDevilInside said: https://www.dcfc.co.uk/page/whos-who 'head of emerging talent' but isn't academy or local so must be first team as the head scout mclaren also has this in his title. That to me implies exactly what we're talking about. Finding the emerging talent or unearthing the hidden gems Either we have no scouts for first team players or he is... Technical scouting to my knowledge is opposition planning and tactical planning/insight. 4-6 players for a club is not particularly high turnover the 8-10 we did for a few seasons was excessive and unsustainable. You would expect to lose a player or 2 a season to retirement/no longer being able to play at the level due to age 1 or 2 for end of contracts 1 or 2 fringe players frustrated and seeking fresh pastures 1 or 2 opportunity transfers (for a fee to a bigger/higher club) That's between 4 and 8 replacements needed without a change of manager etc. Maybe some filled by an academy... But still opportunity each season to make signings as part of normal course and squad development (that is assuming you rely on loans but the quantity not massively wavering season on season. So you lose x amount from the previous season and sign x also if in different positions) you are assuming that the players you start off with are what you want so you replace like for like,Which would not exactly match Derbys requirement right now,I would suggest to field a side with genuine promotion hopes we need more in the region of 8/12 players.Obviously Mel is not in the position to make that amount available(even if FFP allowed it)so it needs a gradual evolution which entails continuity in both managers and coaches and scouts, Once that is achieved then yes we can apply top ups as you suggest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ambitious Posted October 20, 2019 Share Posted October 20, 2019 I think, as a collective, the supporters are quite disappointed with the scouting and rightly so. We've made a lot of signings over the past 5 years and we've sold less than a handful for a profit. I would love to know what the net value would be, certainly quite painful viewing. I feel as a club we've focused too much on intangibles than actual ability. I totally understand why they're important, but our approach strikes me as lazy. Scouting is an easy job, seriously easy job, but it's hard work. I just wonder if we've got the right worth ethic with the people at the clubs. If your full time job is to watch football and find players, especially in this day and age, it's a job that you could literally do sat in your bed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosythram Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I totally agree that our scouting, recruitment policy appears absolutely woeful. In defence I would envisage that it’s far easier if your scouting, recruiting for a set system rather than the scatter gun policy of playing we have gone for in the last 5 seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Buckley’s Dog Posted October 21, 2019 Author Share Posted October 21, 2019 15 hours ago, G STAR RAM said: Yet we have finished in or around the play offs for the last 5 years. Who's scouts are we comparing ours against? Brighton, Bournemouth, Sheff Utd, Watford, Crystal Palace, Norwich, Huddersfield, Burnley, Southampton and the myriad of other teams who have been promoted whilst we languish away. Brentford haven’t got promoted but their scouting system has provided multiple players being sold on for a huge profit. I am still convinced we went down there and came away with the wrong one. We have wasted an awful lot of money since Clough left, I don’t think that can be denied, and whilst I agree that having a stable manager and system to scout for would be beneficial, what system would Blackman and Camara have fitted in to exactly. £5 million for those two! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheresOnlyWanChope Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 8 hours ago, lukedcfc said: I think 99% of this forum could find a better winger than our scouts. Lawrence, jozefzoon, Camara etc have been a disaster. Could we though? I agree some of the signings haven’t been great but the three players you listed would always have been good candidates. Lawrence.. highly rated youngster and wales international, Jozefzoon had success at PSV and had a whole season of English football while Camara was doing well in a top half French ligue 1 team. scouting is easy in terms of identifying talent but then they have to be the right price(difficult in an inflated market) plus the competition with other clubs is always going to be massive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DontTrustTheDevilInside Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 8 hours ago, TommyPowel said: you are assuming that the players you start off with are what you want so you replace like for like,Which would not exactly match Derbys requirement right now,I would suggest to field a side with genuine promotion hopes we need more in the region of 8/12 players.Obviously Mel is not in the position to make that amount available(even if FFP allowed it)so it needs a gradual evolution which entails continuity in both managers and coaches and scouts, Once that is achieved then yes we can apply top ups as you suggest We were talking about what is a sustainable amount of transfers/squad turnover not what we thought the squad currently needed to meet cocus requirements. Even if you take your 8/12 signings it more likely to be 2 windows/seasons because even a club with a great scouting record like Brentford in 12 would make the odd one that doesn't work out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 I'm not sure that the scouting team were responsible for any of lawrence, jozefzoon or camara. camara seemed to be paul Clement's choice rowett was mad for lawrence And frank seemed to have identified jozefzoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GenBr Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 36 minutes ago, Steve Buckley’s Dog said: Brighton, Bournemouth, Sheff Utd, Watford, Crystal Palace, Norwich, Huddersfield, Burnley, Southampton and the myriad of other teams who have been promoted whilst we languish away. Brentford haven’t got promoted but their scouting system has provided multiple players being sold on for a huge profit. I am still convinced we went down there and came away with the wrong one. We have wasted an awful lot of money since Clough left, I don’t think that can be denied, and whilst I agree that having a stable manager and system to scout for would be beneficial, what system would Blackman and Camara have fitted in to exactly. £5 million for those two! Watford got all their players on the cheap from their sister club though - the same way as Forest are doing now and Bournemouth breached FFP to get promoted. Not saying you are wrong about the others, but those two in particular found ways to get around the limitations. (which we also did by selling the stadium) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lukedcfc Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 2 hours ago, Davide said: Could we though? I agree some of the signings haven’t been great but the three players you listed would always have been good candidates. Lawrence.. highly rated youngster and wales international, Jozefzoon had success at PSV and had a whole season of English football while Camara was doing well in a top half French ligue 1 team. scouting is easy in terms of identifying talent but then they have to be the right price(difficult in an inflated market) plus the competition with other clubs is always going to be massive. I suppose you have got a point, our expensive singings always end up our worse. Ince is probably our best signing in recent seasons, at least we made a profit on him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 20 hours ago, Squid said: As much as it hurts me to say im jealous of F*rest’s recruitment hell no. They buy in bulk and have only just found a few gems. Those gems being loan players who will go back to benfica unless they go up. Forest have a squad of 40 who theyve been trying to get rid off of the past few seasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheresOnlyWanChope Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 3 minutes ago, lukedcfc said: I suppose you have got a point, our expensive singings always end up our worse. Ince is probably our best signing in recent seasons, at least we made a profit on him. Clough made some good signings- Keogh, Bryson, Shackell. I think it’s always difficult to know how players will get on at a new club- Sanchez at Man U for example. Great player but for whatever reason hasn’t worked. In recent years however Leicester have tended to find great players at bargain prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 Good scouts can see potential from lower leagues and see who can make the step up. There is plenty of talent about in the lower leagues. our scouting system has been a complete joke for a good while now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramsbottom Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 In an alternative universe there is a Derby County scouting team that upon seeing that both Craig Bryson & Will Hughes would be out for a season, immediately found two quality season-long loans to replace them for practically nothing, instead of ham-stringing us for 4 years with Butterfield & Johnson. That £10m combined fee and subsequent wages have screwed us ever since. Johnson had his uses but was massively overpriced, as was Butterfield. Clement didn't help matters with his January splurge either... I think the vast majority of our fans would like to go back to those halcyon days of the hidden gems under Burley & Clough, unearthing the truffles amongst the crap. The Brayford's, Bryson's, The Reich's,, The Martin's The Idiakez's, the Osman's, the Buxton's. Ah the memories ? Even at the very top end of football, fee doesn't dictate talent. Give me a £500k Holmes over a £7m Bielik any day of the week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimbobram Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 1 hour ago, ramsbottom said: In an alternative universe there is a Derby County scouting team that upon seeing that both Craig Bryson & Will Hughes would be out for a season, immediately found two quality season-long loans to replace them for practically nothing, instead of ham-stringing us for 4 years with Butterfield & Johnson. That £10m combined fee and subsequent wages have screwed us ever since. Johnson had his uses but was massively overpriced, as was Butterfield. Clement didn't help matters with his January splurge either... I think the vast majority of our fans would like to go back to those halcyon days of the hidden gems under Burley & Clough, unearthing the truffles amongst the crap. The Brayford's, Bryson's, The Reich's,, The Martin's The Idiakez's, the Osman's, the Buxton's. Ah the memories ? Even at the very top end of football, fee doesn't dictate talent. Give me a £500k Holmes over a £7m Bielik any day of the week. Bielek has massive weight on his shoulders because if his fee. He will be judged more for his performances because of his fee. Not his fault but thats the way it is. I cant for the life of me understand the signing when we clearly was going to miss attacking options with the loss of Mount and Wilson. How was replacements for them not a priority. Im not saying the same quality because thats impossible, but we didn't even try and strengthen those positions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbles Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 14 hours ago, lukedcfc said: I think 99% of this forum could find a better winger than our scouts. Lawrence, jozefzoon, Camara etc have been a disaster. Agustin Urzi, Adam Hložek. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 16 hours ago, reverendo de duivel said: Do you have any proof the owners son in a key scouting role, I've not heard that. As far as I'm aware, Mel's stepson was a part of the 'Own the Region' project, and any (voluntary, I may add) scouting he has done has been at a very local level concentrating on the kids coming into the academy, and therefore falls into the category you state is without complaint. This may have changed, so I'm happy to be proved wrong. It many only be an individual instance, but I did always think it was weird how his step-lad went with McClaren to watch Calum Paterson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Kevin Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 14 hours ago, lukedcfc said: I think 99% of this forum could find a better winger than our scouts. Lawrence, jozefzoon, Camara etc have been a disaster. There lies part of the problem one of them is deffo not a winger ,Lawrence is a 10 all day long .The other two aren't even footballers never mind wingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted October 21, 2019 Share Posted October 21, 2019 2 hours ago, ramsbottom said: In an alternative universe there is a Derby County scouting team that upon seeing that both Craig Bryson & Will Hughes would be out for a season, immediately found two quality season-long loans to replace them for practically nothing, instead of ham-stringing us for 4 years with Butterfield & Johnson. That £10m combined fee and subsequent wages have screwed us ever since. Johnson had his uses but was massively overpriced, as was Butterfield. Clement didn't help matters with his January splurge either... Subsequently been revealed to be a £12,000,000 combined fee… My memory from that time is that we wanted another midfielder anyway, we were linked with both Butterfield and Dale Stephens. I still think we could have got away with Dawkins in midfield. He was man of the match on two of three occasions when he played there the season previous. Roll with a midfield of George, Hendrick and Dawkins with Baird and Hanson as cover for three months until you get Bryson back. It was such a bad season that. Hamstrung us financially whilst weakened us. You spend that £25,000,000 well and we’re mid-table in the Prem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.