How important is the manager?

[Coneheadjohn]

33 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

He might not want 3 years...

Maybe not but I expect him to be here next year hopefully with some decent signings (we need a decent window)a long list of departures and please for the love of god a midfield that's fit for purpose.

[angieram]

I think that the style of manager we have is extremely important in our current financial situation. We need a management team who command respect with players and who can bring the best out of them and develop their skills, particularly as we are going to have to rely a lot on young players coming through plus inexpensive buys. 

I think we already have a good management team with Lampard and Morris; Lampard is the frontman and motivator, Morris has an excellent track record in bringing through young players and must have been really frustrated at times at Chelsea that many of his young protogees didn't get their chance at first team level because of the constant demand for immediate success.

Bogle, Tomori, Bennett, Bird, Wilson and Mount have all done well under Lampard so far. I expect Sibley and Mitchell Lawson to do likewise, Thomas too if he returns next year. 

It's not surprising some of the older or more established players have been less successful under Frank so far but I don't mind that. Like some of our fans, they want (need) success quicker so may have to move on to get that (most of them won't! )

I'd like to keep our current management team for their full contract and give them time to create something really special. They could become that great management team that we all crave.

If they don't,  we can't be in any worse situation than we have been over the last three years and we will hopefully be a lot more viable!

[RoyMac5]

2 hours ago, angieram said:

If they don't,  we can't be in any worse situation than we have been over the last three years and we will hopefully be a lot more viable!

More viable? Less fans will turn up if we don't do well. We'll still have to pay 'decent' wages just because of who the club is (imo). We need to keep competing in the Top 6, I'm not convinced FL knows how to adjust his football philosophy to Championship standard players.

[CROSSWORD]

For what its worth ive always judged a manager as having been on the ropes in the first half to have the ability to adjust and counter the strengths of the opposition in the second.If players havent got their head in the game to ream them out or pull them out.No exceptions no matter how much we paid for them.Im not saying he should spin the game around and win it,just demonstrate he knows whats going wrong and makes an improvement.

Doesnt seem to be happening at the moment ,i like FL but he does look lost to me.

[Comrade 86]

5 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

He might not want 3 years...

Wouldn't blame him. When we put it in we can perform like we did at Chelski and Manure. When we can't be arsed, we get Blackburn instead.

Players have to want to improve. They have to want to fight. If they won't respond to a proven winner like Lampard (or the succession of managers before him), then perhaps we should be questioning them instead.

[superzak]

New squad next season...theres not to many players from this season that could complain if they arent in the first 11 come next August

[LeedsCityRam]

20 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

The point was we don't appear to have made a mistake in letting a manager go, bar Clough (senior that is!).

So how close to being relegated do we get before sacking? That seems to go against your 'give them time' philosophy?

Is the only way to judge a manager to wait for success (or failure) then?

Am I reading this right?! You're admitting that letting McClaren go was not a mistake based on his poor record post-Derby?

In answer to your last question, yes, the only way to judge any manager is to wait until he has a fair time period in charge. Various posters are very anti-Clement and anti-Pearson but the reality is we can't really judge their tenures based on less than 9 months management. They may have come good, we'll never know.

Unless you think 6-9 months is a reasonable time period to transform a consistently under-performing football club with massive expectations. Which most wouldn't.

[TheresOnlyWanChope]

Good manager is vital but so is having a talented and balanced set of players. What is concerning is Lampard doesn’t seem to know his best team, but is that his fault? Does he have eleven players in set positions who have positively contributed this season? 

The 95/96 team is a great example of a balanced team; lots of consistently good players with different attributes and a settled team for a lot of the season. 2013/14 was similar. 

Do we have a squad with enough players making a positive contribution? 

In my opinion there are too many inconsistent performers. We are assured consistency more or less with our goalkeepers, Keogh and Tomori, Mount and Wilson and maybe Bogle. How about all the others? It’s patchy at best. Are the players consistent enough? Are they physically and mentally cut out for championship football and 46 matches plus cups? 

[RoyMac5]

1 hour ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Unless you think 6-9 months is a reasonable time period to transform a consistently under-performing football club with massive expectations. Which most wouldn't.

But as I'm not actually in charge of hiring and firing I shall say that if I was Mel I'd be getting a bit cheesed off by now. Why not 6-9 months? Mac did it, even Rowett and Wassall gave it good goes. Lampard has had a reasonable amount of ins & outs yet is nowhere near a settled team formation. 

[LeedsCityRam]

2 hours ago, RoyMac5 said:

But as I'm not actually in charge of hiring and firing I shall say that if I was Mel I'd be getting a bit cheesed off by now. Why not 6-9 months? Mac did it, even Rowett and Wassall gave it good goes. Lampard has had a reasonable amount of ins & outs yet is nowhere near a settled team formation. 

Because McClaren's first stint was possible only due to the favourable situation he inherited. A lean, talented squad, well within FFP restrictions & with low fan expectations - the club was waiting to ignite & he managed that.

Would you have expected him to turn things around in 6/9 months had the squad been a bloated, overpaid mess? His managerial record elsewhere proves he's not capable of reversing a slide or developing a side from scratch so presumably you'd have wanted him gone after 6 months had he reverted to type. 

Re Wassall, again, not much wrong with the team he had but he still apparently needed Redknapp to assist him. 

Yes, Rowett delivered results but it was pure short-termism and of course, the style was hated by many fans and probably by you the most ?

[RoyMac5]

16 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

Because McClaren's first stint was possible only due to the favourable situation he inherited. A lean, talented squad, well within FFP restrictions & with low fan expectations - the club was waiting to ignite & he managed that.

Would you have expected him to turn things around in 6/9 months had the squad been a bloated, overpaid mess? His managerial record elsewhere proves he's not capable of reversing a slide or developing a side from scratch so presumably you'd have wanted him gone after 6 months had he reverted to type. 

Re Wassall, again, not much wrong with the team he had but he still apparently needed Redknapp to assist him. 

Yes, Rowett delivered results but it was pure short-termism and of course, the style was hated by many fans and probably by you the most ?

So it's possible then.

[LeedsCityRam]

6 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

So it's possible then.

You're missing the point Roy. The circumstances you inherit dictate how quickly 'success' can be achieved - McClaren benefited from that. 

6-9 months isn't a fair time frame in which to judge a rebuild job. That is what Lampard has - McClaren did not.

[RoyMac5]

54 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

You're missing the point Roy. The circumstances you inherit dictate how quickly 'success' can be achieved - McClaren benefited from that. 

6-9 months isn't a fair time frame in which to judge a rebuild job. That is what Lampard has - McClaren did not.

No I'm not missing the point - else how come Frank could have us still within a Top 6 finish?

Edit: are all the Derby managers in the recent past/now much of a muchness then?

[europia]

On 10/04/2019 at 16:24, coneheadjohn said:

Someone needs 3 years at it.

I was prepared to hold my nose(I know that’s a Brexit term)and let Rowett do it and now I hope Frank stays and does it.

I hope he learns from his first set of permanent transfer business.

 

 

Problem is, it sounds like that might be the only transfer kitty he is likely to be given. 

[LeedsCityRam]

1 hour ago, RoyMac5 said:

No I'm not missing the point - else how come Frank could have us still within a Top 6 finish?

Edit: are all the Derby managers in the recent past/now much of a muchness then?

Because Lampard's done a decent job to get us close to a top 6 finish. Remember, Rowett jumped ship as he didn't think he could better the 6th place he got with us last year & expectations on here (poll result) were around 7th-12th. 

Yes, I think most of our recent managers are very similar in ability level - none of them got us to over-perform and none have had sustained success elsewhere. I also think most of them had much more favourable conditions than Lampard - more money, less pattern of consistent failure/near misses & better balanced squads.

[RoyMac5]

20 minutes ago, LeedsCityRam said:

 I also think most of them had much more favourable conditions than Lampard - more money, less pattern of consistent failure/near misses & better balanced squads.

An interesting point but if you consider the quality of loans and the firepower bought in, plus squad already here then I'm not sure FL is hard done by!

[jono]

I sometimes wonder if it’s about your face fitting .. no seriously. 

There is always a bit of the dark arts in a team structure and a manager is part of the team and part of the mix. You could have 2 great midfielders but never see the best of them when playing together,  but you could have one mildly skilled also ran paired with one fighter and for some reason end up with a unit just as effective as the two genius players. 

The basic principals of flexible man management apply of course but that has changed so much in the last 20 years. Authority is challenged in ways that it could never have been in past generations.

it is a skill of course, but spirit within a group, serendipity, common desire and intelligence go a long way. 

I like Frank, I think he has the skills but serendipity and the mix of men ? I don’t know that it’s right yet ..

allowing for finances of the whole game I just hope we have time to build something over a few seasons 

[Chester40]

On 10/04/2019 at 15:53, RoyMac5 said:

Is the only way to judge a manager to wait for success (or failure) then?

Yes. In a nutshell, delete the rest of this rather confusing thread, you have it sussed. Give the bloke a chance, see how he does. Overall I'd give him 7 out of 10 so far. Flashes of excellence, decent bloke, signings mixed bag, reduced wage bill, dancing around edge of top 6. Try again next year.

[RoyMac5]

17 minutes ago, Chester40 said:

Yes. In a nutshell, delete the rest of this rather confusing thread, you have it sussed. Give the bloke a chance, see how he does. Overall I'd give him 7 out of 10 so far. 

The thread title is 'how important' so at 7/10 that's not particularly important then?

There's little likelihood of this thread having any concrete outcome ? it's just a bit of musing over who, how long, what type of manager makes a difference if any. Clough had decades (it seemed) and Pearson minutes, but the outcome was the same, no promotion.

[KCG]

There are certain managers who seem to have the knack of being able to get promotion to the Premiership. Delia seems to have the knack of finding the right managers to get Norwich regularly promoted. Usually those managers have found was of getting rather mediocre teams promoted.

We have been rather mediocre in finding the right manager and regularly say year-on-year "we need a few seasons to rebuild". Sigh!