How important is the manager?

[RoyMac5]

After last nights disappointing show there are posts about the players not performing and posts about strange managerial choices being to 'blame'.

It made me think that there's always 'well okay where are they now' posts about players who haven't stayed the course here, but none about our past managers. So for all the pros and cons about changing managers - of our last 5 or 6, where are they now?

[AshfieldRam]

Steve McLaren - Out of work after being sacked by QPR

Paul Clement - Out of work after being sacked by Reading. Just awful.

Darren Wassall - Back in the Academy and seems to be doing a good job. 

Nigel Pearson - Out of work. Unemployed after being sacked by OH Leuven is Belgium. Odd one because i do think he can do a job for a team in England but he was terrible for us.

Chris Powell - Out of work. Recently sacked by Southend United, leaving them in a relegation fight to stay in the league. 

Then Steve Mac again but he's been covered. 

Gary Rowett - Out of work. Well documented exit from Stoke after revealing his true colours of flirting with jobs at other teams, just like he did whilst at Birmingham. 

It is ironic that the only person on that list who still has a job in a club set up is Darren Wassall.

 

It is a good point you make though. The success of our appointments after Derby hasn't been great at all. Arguably, you''d have to go back to Phil Brown to see any success in a former manager when he got Hull promoted to the Prem. 

[SaintRam]

55 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

After last nights disappointing show there are posts about the players not performing and posts about strange managerial choices being to 'blame'.

It made me think that there's always 'well okay where are they now' posts about players who haven't stayed the course here, but none about our past managers. So for all the pros and cons about changing managers - of our last 5 or 6, where are they now?

Gary Rowett - Unemployed, sacked by Stoke.
Steve McClaren - Unemployed, sacked by QPR
Chris Powell (caretaker) - Unemployed, sacked by Southend
Nigel Pearson - Unemployed, sacked by OH Leuven
Darren Wassall (caretaker) - Head of Academy at Derby
Paul Clement - Unemployed, sacked by Reading

 

I don't think this really changes much though. The player v manager debate and who's to blame will always remain, and generally opinions don't tend to change even as circumstance does.

I think there's hope with Lampard, personally - as I feel as though our team has gotten much worse over the last couple of years (even factoring in the loanees) but, while it's been pretty drab over the last few months, we're still as competitive as were in that past time-frame. 

I'm genuinely interested in seeing what moves we make this summer, and hesitantly excited for next season.

 

EDIT: I knew after seeing @RoyMac5 's post had been up for 45 minutes that someone would choose to answer it at the same time I did @AshfieldRam ? 

 

[lukedcfc]

Very important, see Sheffield Wednesday and Bruce. 

[i-Ram]

52 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

After last nights disappointing show there are posts about the players not performing and posts about strange managerial choices being to 'blame'.

It made me think that there's always 'well okay where are they now' posts about players who haven't stayed the course here, but none about our past managers. So for all the pros and cons about changing managers - of our last 5 or 6, where are they now?

You ok Roy?  Seems a strange follow-up to your actual question (subject header).  

A good manager, man manager, is vital in my opinion, especially at a club like ours in some turmoil. Frank has got his work cut out, cutting his teeth in his first managerial role.  He has senior players who aren’t performing/being picked for whatever underlying reason (e.g. Carson, Marriott, Wisdom), he has a raft of players who look certain to be shown the door come June, he has his 3 ‘star’ loanees who he has built this season around likely to leave at the same time, and a number of players like Martin, Anya, Thorne, who are unlikely it seems to fit his ideal plans notwithstanding they are all on hefty pay rates.  Tough gig.

 

[RoyMac5]

7 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

I think there's hope with Lampard, personally - as I feel as though our team has gotten much worse over the last couple of years (even factoring in the loanees) but, while it's been pretty drab over the last few months, we're still as competitive as were in that past time-frame. ...

EDIT: I knew after seeing @RoyMac5 's post had been up for 45 minutes that someone would choose to answer it at the same time I did @AshfieldRam ? 

I just wondered if Mel had been concentrating his money in the wrong area - should we have looked to have a better player recruitment set-up? Or is that down to the manager...

But I was thinking that for all the shouts of 'give them x seasons', none of our previous however many managers have achieved squat.

[RoyMac5]

3 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

You ok Roy?  Seems a strange follow-up to your actual question (subject header).  

... Tough gig.

? I'm just wondering how important a 'good' manager is and what areas are priorities. It is indeed a tough gig here.

 

[Van der MoodHoover]

Part master tactician, part psycho-analyst, part PR front man, part counsel and confidante

ie plot how to achieve the victory

convince the players how to achieve the victory

explain to the media/mel anyone else who is interested how the victory will be celebrated and will have been richly deserved,

listen/address any player problems in order that they feel inspired to play to their maximum potential.

Don't need much then.......?

[RadioactiveWaste]

The reality is you've got to get the right players in the building and the wrong manager out.

Manager is always on a hiding to nothing, do brilliantly and its the players who good, do badly and its on you.

 

[SaintRam]

1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said:

I just wondered if Mel had been concentrating his money in the wrong area - should we have looked to have a better player recruitment set-up? Or is that down to the manager...

But I was thinking that for all the shouts of 'give them x seasons', none of our previous however many managers have achieved squat.

I think Mel went into this with the idea that a successful club has an owner that supports the manager as much as they can, and perhaps was somewhat naive in that he didn't get a true measure of them, or how they intended to play, or how their relationship developed between players/staff/Mel himself before giving them large backings.

You have to remember that, for example, Paul Clement was supported into hiring a whole team of recruitment analysts like he had at Real Madrid (Thank god he did, otherwise we wouldn't have been able to nut £13m on Butterfield and Johnson) - that's a pretty big organisational change.

Obviously, that's just the easy one - we don't know how much the other managers wanted to be involved in recruitment but I assume that if they were that Mel was simply saying yes to what they wanted. We gave a new, bigger, contract to a player who was playing for another team and then never played him again!

Who does that?!

 

Personally I choose to bite on the easy bait that Sam Rush (and the managers I didn't like) is to blame for all the bad deals that have occurred, and therefore I can continue to support Derby with maximum positivity ? - it does have to be said that since Rush left the only mad thing we've done is selling Hughes and I think the blame fully lies with Rowett on that one.

[RoyMac5]

2 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

Personally I choose to bite on the easy bait that Sam Rush (and the managers I didn't like) is to blame for all the bad deals that have occurred, and therefore I can continue to support Derby with maximum positivity ? - it does have to be said that since Rush left the only mad thing we've done is selling Hughes and I think the blame fully lies with Rowett on that one.

?

Not sure it's the *only* mad thing! ?

[Cam the Ram]

We've had the same problem for years, player recruitment and club mentality. We've tried signings players off the back of incredible seasons, players out of form/not getting much game time who should have a point to prove, experienced players who've been there and done that, younger players who should improve and we've also managed to get some of the countries top young players here on loan. We've even tried doing the same thing with managers, experienced, rookies, managers on the up in their career and managers out of work with a point to prove. Still, every single time we've crumbled once we start getting to the latter part of the season when the games are more important. We're destined to remain in the Championship forever

[SaintRam]

4 minutes ago, Cam the Ram said:

We're destined to remain in the Championship forever

 

There are far worse fates for a football club.

[Cam the Ram]

2 minutes ago, SaintRam said:

There are far worse fates for a football club.

Yep there is, but at least for everyone else they mix it up a bit. Our season has just been a repeat of the season before with different players and managers, but sometimes we have the nice little treat of making the play offs before fully throwing it away. Start slow, improve and go on a good run around October and November time, be sitting in a good spot come January, crumble and start looking ahead to next season with a handful of games left to play, repeat. It's great winning more than we lose and I'm very appreciative of that, but it doesn't half get tedious seeing the same thing year after year despite the many changes made every season

[SaintRam]

5 minutes ago, Cam the Ram said:

Yep there is, but at least for everyone else they mix it up a bit. Our season has just been a repeat of the season before with different players and managers, but sometimes we have the nice little treat of making the play offs before fully throwing it away. Start slow, improve and go on a good run around October and November time, be sitting in a good spot come January, crumble and start looking ahead to next season with a handful of games left to play, repeat. It's great winning more than we lose and I'm very appreciative of that, but it doesn't half get tedious seeing the same thing year after year despite the many changes made every season

It's not despite the many changes made every season, though. It's because of the many changes made every season. 
 

Besides, this season had some good highlights. Mostly in the cup of course. Plus Mason Bennett of all people scored the best goal I've ever seen! I've also been enjoying the general culture with Lamps about. It's been nice. Especially as now the foreign people I know have suddenly heard of Derby and want to talk about us.

 

Also I have a hunch for next season that'll please you. We'll either get relegated or promoted! Either one of those would be a win in your book so you've no reason to be down ? 

[Nuwtfly]

Leicester are the best recent example.

Look at the way they play before and after the appointment of Brendan Rodgers.

Same players. Totally different to watch.

The manager is lays the foundation for everything that happens on the pitch. 

[SaintRam]

7 minutes ago, Nuwtfly said:

Leicester are the best recent example.

Look at the way they play before and after the appointment of Brendan Rodgers.

Same players. Totally different to watch.

The manager is lays the foundation for everything that happens on the pitch. 

From their transition from Pearson to Ranieri too (Although people used the opposite argument there and tried to suggest that it somehow meant that Pearson was an excellent hire.). But then it faltered over time. Why? Because a couple of the players left? Because someone got bored? Did Ranieri suddenly become a bad manager?

Difficult to look at the short term, for me. Difficult to look at this topic at all, to be quite frank, it's so complex.

[toddy]

The are good managers and there are poor managers.

As far as FL is concerned he needs time and he needs players here that can do a job. A clear out this summer will help with that.

At the moment he is trying to make a silk purse from a pigs ear.

[RoyMac5]

12 minutes ago, toddy said:

The are good managers and there are poor managers.

As far as FL is concerned he needs time and he needs players here that can do a job. A clear out this summer will help with that.

At the moment he is trying to make a silk purse from a pigs ear.

Some of those pigs ears are his!

Shouldn't a good manager be able to adjust his team play to the available squad?

[SaintRam]

2 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said:

Some of those pigs ears are his!

Shouldn't a good manager be able to adjust his team play to the available squad?

That requirement would bring the list of good managers down to about 10 worldwide, if that. I can't name them.

No manager's had success with a team that wasn't built by them. And perfectly competent managers at any level including CL teams, have seen seasons derailed by one or two injuries.