LB_DCFC Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 19 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Some of those pigs ears are his! Shouldn't a good manager be able to adjust his team play to the available squad? Not necessarily. Some of the best managers like guardiola never adjust their style under any circumstance, but he changes the players to suit his system (obviously having bottomless pits of cash helps!). Klopp has his style & sticks to it etc but then managers like Poch at spurs adapts systems depending on the opponent (switching between 4 and 3 at the back etc). All see success and all approach management in different ways. Klopp and guardiola especially had patchy first seasons laying the groundwork for their systems, and even when they were going through rough spells they never altered their approach. (Not saying Frank is on the level of these managers obviously, just giving examples!) I'd argue that clubs like sheff W have a squad quite suited to Bruce's football, so he sees success. Sheff U have developed a squad over a number of years to fit Wilder's system, and have seen success. Bielsa has his system. Farke has his system, suffered last year implementing it, thriving this year. I don't think it's as binary as 'a good manager can alter his style', although it does help in certain situations, but not in others (lose trust of players if you constantly tinker etc). There are many ways of approaching it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 19 minutes ago, SaintRam said: That requirement would bring the list of good managers down to about 10 worldwide, if that. I can't name them. No manager's had success with a team that wasn't built by them. Raneiri? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, LB_DCFC said: I don't think it's as binary as 'a good manager can alter his style', although it does help in certain situations, but not in others (lose trust of players if you constantly tinker etc). There are many ways of approaching it. So, no Plan B then? ? Constant tinkering man? Is FL or isn't a tinker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Raneiri? Ranieri signed Kante, Fuchs, Huth - who were all critical to their success that season, Kante especially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 Just now, SaintRam said: Ranieri signed Kante, Fuchs, Huth - who were all critical to their success that season, Kante especially. I agree, but then surely it's evolution not revolution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coneheadjohn Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Someone needs 3 years at it. I was prepared to hold my nose(I know that’s a Brexit term)and let Rowett do it and now I hope Frank stays and does it. I hope he learns from his first set of permanent transfer business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 Just now, coneheadjohn said: Someone needs 3 years at it. I was prepared to hold my nose(I know that’s a Brexit term)and let Rowett do it and now I hope Frank stays and does it. Lol. But that's the point isn't it - we've 'let' lots of managers go and regretted none. You think this one might be a regret when he goes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 1 minute ago, RoyMac5 said: I agree, but then surely it's evolution not revolution. Of course, in that case. But whether its revolution or evolution that's needed isn't as much down to the manager as it is down the pool of players and/or the circumstance. Especially with Lampard. He's been hired while agreeing to the remit of "slash" the wage bill, and I think we all have a decent idea of actually how much money we're needing to trim off the squad. You can't "slash" a wage bill without performing a revolution, unless all of that wage money is in one player - which it isn't for us, due to past mistakes. Those past mistakes, you could say, were arguably attempts at "evolution". We kept the core of the squad (especially in the earlier post-Clough years), but paid a lot of £££ on a couple of players to try and strengthen it. We didn't improve but our costs went through the roof. There's no pre-laid road to success, unfortunately. But we have put ourselves in a position where revolution was absolutely necessary for financial reasons, and I think at that point - especially in the first season of such a remit - the manager's quality doesn't really get tested. I say he's done well to keep us vaguely competitive, others think he's done poorly. But we won't really be able to have a good idea of how up to this he is, imo, until he's free from having his hands tied by our past mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 4 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Lol. But that's the point isn't it - we've 'let' lots of managers go and regretted none. You think this one might be a regret when he goes? We've not regretted the specific individual. But we're absolutely sat here in a mire of regret at the lack of stability, which amounts to the same thing. I couldn't care less if Lampard goes on to have a great managerial career or if he never gets another job, post Derby - but if we keep swapping the manager every year with the finances in the state they are, we ARE going to fall down the leagues. Plain and simple. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 39 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Some of those pigs ears are his! Shouldn't a good manager be able to adjust his team play to the available squad? Yes they are because he is trying to build a side take Marriott for instance he is one for the future and i believe will be very good for us, others he has brought in are a temp fixs like Waghorn - he has inherited a large number of players that others have brought in who are not fit for purpose, but they are tied to a contract - hence the clear out this summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommyPowell Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Lol. But that's the point isn't it - we've 'let' lots of managers go and regretted none. You think this one might be a regret when he goes? i am finding it hard work to follow FLs train of thought.He says the reason he isnt playing Marriott is he isnt giving his all during training.if he keeps to that yard stick the kids will be out Saturday.NONE not 1 single player gave his all last night it wasnt a bad day at the office it was abysmal we were out thought or fought out scored by a mid table outfit just clear of the relegation zone.It just isnt good enough . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 5 minutes ago, SaintRam said: We've not regretted the specific individual. But we're absolutely sat here in a mire of regret at the lack of stability, which amounts to the same thing. No its not. We're regretting the financial freedom allowed those managers - who have gone on to do nothing post DCFC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toddy Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 3 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: No its not. We're regretting the financial freedom allowed those managers - who have gone on to do nothing post DCFC. As far as Clement is concerned, he will never make a good manager while he has a hole in his arsenal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Just now, RoyMac5 said: No its not. We're regretting the financial freedom allowed those managers - who have gone on to do nothing post DCFC. What a manager does post Derby is utterly irrelevant. And a lack of stability while also preventing managers from spending money will also not get us anywhere. I get that we may look back at Lampard's tenure and say "that didn't work out" or any other form of hindsighted criticism of him, but there aren't any managers that we could bring in that would guarantee success with the squad we have. Our wage-bill slashed squad is properly mediocre. With the absence of loads of money to chuck at it, the most likely avenue of success is development with the manager and coaching staff, and like it or loathe it that's most easily achieved with the manager we currently have. If we've not improved in a year or two, then we bring in someone else. Then we give THEM 2-3 years, assuming we don't look like being relegated during their first or second year. That's how it should be, in my opinion. Everyone wants to win now, I get that. But we aren't going to, in my opinion. We're not close. And if we ARE suddenly going get good and win promotion next year, that's far more likely to occur under Lampard's second year than anyone else's first. Again, in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 2 minutes ago, SaintRam said: What a manager does post Derby is utterly irrelevant... If we've not improved in a year or two, then we bring in someone else. Then we give THEM 2-3 years, assuming we don't look like being relegated during their first or second year. That's how it should be, in my opinion. The point was we don't appear to have made a mistake in letting a manager go, bar Clough (senior that is!). So how close to being relegated do we get before sacking? That seems to go against your 'give them time' philosophy? Is the only way to judge a manager to wait for success (or failure) then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintRam Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 Just now, RoyMac5 said: The point was we don't appear to have made a mistake in letting a manager go, bar Clough (senior that is!). So how close to being relegated do we get before sacking? That seems to go against your 'give them time' philosophy? Is the only way to judge a manager to wait for success (or failure) then? Well if your criteria for judging whether or not it was the right call to sack someone is based on their performance at other clubs afterwards, I think that is flawed. That's like saying we were definitely right to keep loaning Chris Martin out because he's been awful at every team he's been loaned too. Pretty sure you'd disagree with that point. I think it's fair to say that the hiring of Paul Clement and the hiring of Nigel Pearson were mistakes. Based on how they were clearly completely incompatible with the team and/or executives, and therefore sacking them was inevitable. But was sacking McClaren first time a mistake? Maybe. I think all the Newcastle milarky got in everyone's heads, and Mel was, mistakenly, of the opinion that the team was so good that it'd be fairly easy to find a manager who could take us up with them. I think we should have let Mac have that summer and half a season. Was sacking McClaren second time a mistake? It seemed to be done because Rowett was available, and that seemed like an excellent decision at the time before we all discovered Rowett was a bit of a con artist. We were doing THAT poorly under McClaren at the time? I genuinely don't even remember. Rowett wasn't sacked of course, so how he's done post Derby is truly unimportant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coneheadjohn Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 39 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: Lol. But that's the point isn't it - we've 'let' lots of managers go and regretted none. You think this one might be a regret when he goes? If he doesn’t get 3 years then yes. I regret Mac 2 going for Rowett Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 9 minutes ago, SaintRam said: Well if your criteria for judging whether or not it was the right call to sack someone is based on their performance at other clubs afterwards, I think that is flawed. That's like saying we were definitely right to keep loaning Chris Martin out because he's been awful at every team he's been loaned too. Pretty sure you'd disagree with that point. But he hasn't been awful at them all. ie Fulham. Not the point. I didn't say my criteria for sacking/letting go/losing a manager was how they did elsewhere, I merely pointed out we'd nothing to look back at and weep over! Unlike Clough Snr! You said sack a manager if he gets near relegation - that is how near? As I said that makes it sould like you want your cake and eat it! ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyMac5 Posted April 10, 2019 Author Share Posted April 10, 2019 1 minute ago, coneheadjohn said: If he doesn’t get 3 years then yes. He might not want 3 years... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sparkle Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 I think the manager is very important but so is having very good players clough built a good team over time with peanuts when he got sacked Mc claren had very good players and we were good and also very unlucky in his first spell clement had very good players but chose not to attack with them Pearson had very good players but chose to sell / loan out / select utterly bizarre selections Rowett had very good players but needed to sell it seems lampard - has decent players but we are very unbalanced but he needs time as we are cutting back on wages Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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