The Politics Thread 2019

[Sith Happens]

6 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

That's a political issue. One that I don't agree with.

Itsa politics thread. 

You don't agree with her being a terrorist sympathiser?  Or you don't agree she is/was?

[DarkFruitsRam7]

Just now, Paul71 said:

Itsa politics thread. 

You don't agree with her being a terrorist sympathiser?  Or you don't agree she is/was?

I thought you were on about Corbyn being a 'terrorist sympathiser', in which case, that was a political issue that had no relevance to Matt Hancock being weird in day-to-day situations.

Now I see you're on about Corbyn literally taking someone to bed. I still think that's a far more political issue than Matt Hancock's antics. Anyway, without wishing to get into semantics, I don't think Diane Abbot is 'racist'. I can understand why you'd argue that she is, but there's a huge contextual difference between what she says about white people and what white people might say about black people. That's an issue that I don't want to get into now, as I've got uni work to do.

As for the 'terrorist sympathiser' thing, I don't know about her views on the IRA, Palestinian violence, etc. But, if she shares the same views as Corbyn and McDonnell, then I'll probably strongly disagree with her.

But going back to the personal aspect, my initial point wasn't remotely partisan or political. I didn't use the Hancock video as an example of Tories being weirdos. I just used it as an another example of how many politicians in general are detached from normal people.

[G STAR RAM]

21 minutes ago, ramesses said:

Of course I focused on health tourism given I was replying to a post about health tourism. If you can find more up to date facts on the topic of health tourism then feel free to post up a link.

I didn’t mention immigration but that seems to be your main focus - so here’s a copy of a post I wrote earlier about immigration and funding pressures on the NHS (from p.428 if you want to check back)…

 

As far I can see, the link you posted leads to a fact checker that does a decent job of debunking the headline figure.

It does seem to get raised on here quite often that NHS funding problems are mainly due to immigration or that increasing NHS costs are mainly due to immigration so I did a quick internet search to look for any evidence based research by reputable organisations. I found that over the past few years there’s been a Kings Fund report, a Nuffield trust report, and a more wide ranging University College London/Lancet commission review and report.

All I’ve read so far indicates that the impact of immigration on the NHS is small compared to other factors such as rising costs/wages, non-immigrants getting older, new technology/expanded treatments. The UCL/Lancet commission report states that the rhetoric on this topic is political and not evidence based.

These reports acknowledge gaps in the data base, the need for more research, and they obviously can’t answer every question about the future – but the evidence here seems to point to immigration not being a major factor when it comes to NHS funding.

So, that’s what came up. I didn’t set out to deliberately select these particular reports or deliberately exclude other reports that might have come to different conclusions. Given the reputation of the organisations involved I’m sure that if the data had showed otherwise they’d have reported it.

I’ve added some links below. The first two are links to a couple of news articles that have summarised this material (which I found useful). Also I’ve added links to the specific reports/organisations so people can follow up if wanted.  If I’ve missed any evidence based research by reputable organisations on this topic then maybe someone could post up a link.

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/high-immigration-nhs-crisis

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/nhs-immigration-health-issues-birth-waiting-times-infection-children-pregnant-unhealthy-a8669441.html

https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/projects/verdict/what-do-we-know-about-impact-immigration-nhs

https://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/resource/the-facts-eu-immigration-and-pressure-on-the-nhs#are-eu-immigrants-driving-current-pressure-on-the-nhs

https://www.thelancet.com/pdfs/journals/lancet/PIIS0140-6736(18)32114-7.pdf

I dont think I've ever seen anyone argue that NHS underfunding is mainly due to immigration (apologies if that is wrong).

I've seen people say it is a contributory factor and one that needs addressing.

Personally, I think if cut backs on services are required a good starting point would be denying access to people who have not contributed or have no real right to be using them.

After that re-evaluate and think about taxing people more.

[Sith Happens]

8 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I thought you were on about Corbyn being a 'terrorist sympathiser', in which case, that was a political issue that had no relevance to Matt Hancock being weird in day-to-day situations.

Now I see you're on about Corbyn literally taking someone to bed. I still think that's a far more political issue than Matt Hancock's antics. Anyway, without wishing to get into semantics, I don't think Diane Abbot is 'racist'. I can understand why you'd argue that she is, but there's a huge contextual difference between what she says about white people and what white people might say about black people. That's an issue that I don't want to get into now, as I've got uni work to do.

As for the 'terrorist sympathiser' thing, I don't know about her views on the IRA, Palestinian violence, etc. But, if she shares the same views as Corbyn and McDonnell, then I'll probably strongly disagree with her.

But going back to the personal aspect, my initial point wasn't remotely partisan or political. I didn't use the Hancock video as an example of Tories being weirdos. I just used it as an another example of how many politicians in general are detached from normal people.

Fair enough,  i wont argue politicians are a weird breed

 

[G STAR RAM]

34 minutes ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I  don't think Diane Abbot is 'racist'. I can understand why you'd argue that she is, but there's a huge contextual difference between what she says about white people and what white people might say about black people. That's an issue that I don't want to get into now, as I've got uni work to do.

I'd be interested to hear more about this when you're not so busy.

[DarkFruitsRam7]

3 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'd be interested to hear more about this when you're not so busy.

It’s going to be a long time! 

It’s easy to say you’ll make one post but you end up getting dragged into debates that take up so much time. Maybe in the summer, when I finish uni for three months!

[Stive Pesley]

5 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

I'd be interested to hear more about this when you're not so busy.

So you can tell him why he's wrong?

[Norman]

1 hour ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

I'm not suggesting anything like that. Just pointing out yet another politician who can't seem to act like a normal person.

And that's ignoring all the crap he spouts in interviews and on social media.

I think he has no idea if the camera is on his face or filming their whole bodies. If he thinks it's on zoom, then he would look at the person taking control of the conversation and not move. He also seems confused whether or not to talk to the camera or the woman. 

It looks weird, probably because he has done 200 identical ones and is on auto-pilot/tired/didn't listen to the instructions given to him/he wasn't given any instructions.

He might be a rick, but I'm not sure there is anything else in it.

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, DarkFruitsRam7 said:

It’s going to be a long time! 

It’s easy to say you’ll make one post but you end up getting dragged into debates that take up so much time. Maybe in the summer, when I finish uni for three months!

Sounds like a plan, who knows even Brexit might be done by then so there wont be so much to discuss on here ?

[G STAR RAM]

1 hour ago, SchtivePesley said:

So you can tell him why he's wrong?

Nope so I can exchange ideas and maybe listen to his side of the argument...you should try it sometime...

I'm very interested to hear when he thinks context should and shouldn't be applied to racist comments.

[Comrade 86]

From The Independent...

Major blow for Boris Johnson as EU admits Brexit cannot get done by 2021, after PM dodges interviews and polls narrow. Boris Johnson appeared to duck questions about his failure to appear on Good Morning Britain by hiding in a fridge.?

A former No 10 pollster has warned of a “fast and late” Labour surge after a YouGov poll predicted the Conservatives were on course for only a 28-seat majority. A Lib Dem candidate, meanwhile, has effectively endorsed his Labour rival – telling backers to “vote tactically” to defeat the Tories.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-news-live-polls-boris-johnson-today-corbyn-labour-brexit-nhs-latest-a9241661.html

Seems Tory voters have been duped again.

[G STAR RAM]

3 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

From The Independent...

Major blow for Boris Johnson as EU admits Brexit cannot get done by 2021, after PM dodges interviews and polls narrow. Boris Johnson appeared to duck questions about his failure to appear on Good Morning Britain by hiding in a fridge.?

A former No 10 pollster has warned of a “fast and late” Labour surge after a YouGov poll predicted the Conservatives were on course for only a 28-seat majority. A Lib Dem candidate, meanwhile, has effectively endorsed his Labour rival – telling backers to “vote tactically” to defeat the Tories.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/general-election-news-live-polls-boris-johnson-today-corbyn-labour-brexit-nhs-latest-a9241661.html

Seems Tory voters have been duped again.

Unlike the Labour voters who believe that Corbyn is going to get a deal agreed, back on the table and a Referendum all done within 6 months...

[Comrade 86]

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

Unlike the Labour voters who believe that Corbyn is going to get a deal agreed, back on the table and a Referendum all done within 6 months...

Classic whataboutery. Bravo! Least his estimate wasn't a full year out though eh! 

Out by the 31st of January my arse! 

[G STAR RAM]

Just now, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

Classic whataboutery. Bravo!

Out by the 31st of January my arse! 

It's not whataboutery.

It's Labour voting Remainers constantly telling Conservative Leave voters that they are being lied to and dont know what they are voting for, yet failing to see the hypocrisy of this.

I very much doubt that we will be out by 31st January, if ever at all. Is that going to make me change the way I vote? No.

I also very much doubt that Corbyn would be able to negotiate a deal with the EU, get it agreed by Parliament and hold another Referendum all within 6 months. Do I think that will change the way you vote? No.

So really not sure what the point is in telling people that they have been duped.

[Ghost of Clough]

Interesting to see a poll from LADbible give Jezza only a 15% lead over Bozza, considering how youth centric LADbible is...

 

[Comrade 86]

9 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said:

It's not whataboutery.

It's Labour voting Remainers constantly telling Conservative Leave voters that they are being lied to and dont know what they are voting for, yet failing to see the hypocrisy of this.

I very much doubt that we will be out by 31st January, if ever at all. Is that going to make me change the way I vote? No.

I also very much doubt that Corbyn would be able to negotiate a deal with the EU, get it agreed by Parliament and hold another Referendum all within 6 months. Do I think that will change the way you vote? No.

So really not sure what the point is in telling people that they have been duped.

So you're happy to vote for a PM who has lied through his teeth about the timescales for delivering Brexit. Hmmm. Interesting! 

[Comrade 86]

Old G Star has got me thinking. Maybe everyone is doing Johnson a disservice saying he's been bullshitting about when Brexit will 'get done'. When he said it would be by January 31st, did Boris actually say which year he was talking about? 

On a separate note, if Corbyn is a threat to national security, what are the Tories given they can't seem to keep their 'sensitive' documents out of the hands of the Russians and the media? How many leaks is that in the last week or two? Bit embarrassing really! 

[G STAR RAM]

6 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

So you're happy to vote for a PM who has lied through his teeth about the timescales for delivering Brexit. Hmmm. Interesting! 

Yep, no problem with it whatsoever.

Given a free run Brexit would have been done 9 months ago.

Sure I would prefer him to come out and say we don't know when it will get done but what sort of pressure does that put on either side?

Interested to know how you will be voting? I'm assuming it will be for someone who has never said anything that turned out not to be true...good luck with that.

[Wolfie]

7 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said:

So you're happy to vote for a PM who has lied through his teeth about the timescales for delivering Brexit. Hmmm. Interesting! 

....or one that lied through his teeth about "fully costed" spending promsies and a 451 document providing "proof" that the NHS was for sale.

No moral high ground here either.

It's poo isn't it.

[Comrade 86]

3 minutes ago, Van Wolfie said:

....or one that lied through his teeth about "fully costed" spending promsies and a 451 document providing "proof" that the NHS was for sale.

No moral high ground here either.

It's poo isn't it.

It's quite amusing watching Brexiter heads exploding all over the internet though. Seems like while G star has a crystal ball and sees everything coming well in advance, many others don't and didn't.

Meanwhile, could Boris' gaffes result in a hung parliament? He seems to be doing his very best to balls up what was a gimme a couple of weeks back. Maybe that's why he's taken to hiding in fridges rather than taking interviews he'd promised to give...