G STAR RAM Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 19 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: You have to use your gut instinct I'm afraid. Some people are rich and the heady mix of money and power lead them down the path of greed, and let no man stand in their way. Others are rich and thankful and see philanthropy as the path to take. As I'm teaching you life skills - here's a tip. If these rich people are politicians, the former are always Tories and the latter are not No, sorry but 'using your gut instinct' does not stand up in a debate and goes back to what I was saying about there is no way politics can progress. I wouldnt say you're teaching me life lessons, you're giving me opinions based on little other than gut instinct. You only need to look back to the expenses scandal to see that it's not only the Conservatives that find themselves on that path of greed... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheron85 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 24 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Some people are rich and the heady mix of money and power lead them down the path of greed, and let no man stand in their way. Others are rich and thankful and see philanthropy as the path to take. I don't much agree with @G STAR RAM's backing of any of the current batch of Tories - Boris, Patel, Rees-Mogg and crew are a terrible indictment on the state of British politics But it's also worth pointing out that old Jezza suffers in this regard too Traditionally I'd say the Conservatives believed that the government should provide a state which allows the individual the best opportunity to succeed - And that Labour are more focused on trying to make sure no individual is left behind - The fundamental differences in political philosophy This naturally leads to the assumption that Conservatives are always after their own best interests where Labour politicians aren't - I don't think this is the case It's been clear for years that the Labour Party can't win an election with Corbyn in charge yet he won't stand down - If he really cared about getting the Tories out he'd become party chairman and let someone more electable become the face and leader of the party - But unfortunately he's so convinced that he knows what's best that he won't do that - Just because his intentions are to try and help the worst off in society doesn't mean his practice or ideas are necessarily right As much as I hated the vast majority of the things he believed in I miss Cameron - At least he seemed to believe he was doing the best thing for the people of the country - Rees-Mogg doesn't give a flying monkeys about what's best for the people, just the country as a concept - This sense of 'Britishness' which everyone seems to be obsessed with at the moment but no-one can actually define without being fundamentally racist I personally think the greatest thing about Britain is our diversity, our acceptance of change, the way we band together, the openness to new ideas and new thoughts - And I always find it a shame when people want to 'go back' to something which is outdated and (quite frankly) boring in today's modern society - You don't see Japan saying they want to go backwards - Huge respect for tradition and the things that have made them who they are but always striving towards the future and the new and different Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 13 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: No, sorry but 'using your gut instinct' does not stand up in a debate and goes back to what I was saying about there is no way politics can progress. Good job no one voted Brexit based on gut instinct then eh? Or that they don't care about No Deal because their gut instinct tells them we'll be OK - Oops In the circumstances, and to help politics progress I shall refrain from sharing what my gut instinct says about anyone who goes out of their way to defend Jacob Rees Mogg ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uptherams Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 hour ago, ariotofmyown said: That's why the referendum was such a shocking idea and is why we vote in MPs to make decisions on our behalf. Most MPs in the last parliament know Brexit is bad idea. Many of the ones who are pro-Brexit know it will be bad for the economy but will be fine themselves. Or they are going along with it in the hope their Leave electorate will vote for them again. Let's have a referendum to stop all taxation. I reckon it could win. Who wants to pay taxes eh. Booooooo! But it would be the will of the people. So you are against a second referendum? Were you saying this before or after the Scottish referendum? Most MP's think, they don't know. I think they are more concerned about their opportunities, not those of their constituents. The amount of people that came out and voted, it was a great exercise for democracy. Almost no one votes for their MP. Let's stop pretending otherwise or put people who do on some kind of pedastol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Highgate Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 5 hours ago, Angry Ram said: Points 1 and 2 have nothing to do with point 3. Pointless point. Individuals will know why they voted leave. They dont do the final deals. Point 3 is perfectly valid if you manage not to confuse the words what and why. What people were voting on and why they voted for it are entirely different things. Leave was so ambiguous that's even it's leading advocates can't agree on what it means 3 years after the vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 2 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Good job no one voted Brexit based on gut instinct then eh? Or that they don't care about No Deal because their gut instinct tells them we'll be OK - Oops In the circumstances, and to help politics progress I shall refrain from sharing what my gut instinct says about anyone who goes out of their way to defend Jacob Rees Mogg ? Yeah fair point but personally I don't think that the 2 thinks are comparable. Basically, you will forever hold the view that Conservatives are self serving and greedy (I notice my expenses scandal comment was ignored). Whether people voted on gut instinct on Brexit, I cant comment on. As I said previously I believe people had a default position and may have had this reinforced by the way the campaigns played out. I'm not going out of my way to defend JRM, I am asking for evidence that he even needs defending, just the same as you would if someone used the line that Corbyn is a terrorist sympathiser etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Van der MoodHoover said: I did a bit of reading and gleaned a few extra snippets - should ignore the tier 5 as these seem mainly to be holiday jobs and charity workers - not high skilled stuff -tier 2 includes the "shortage occupations" so that is all your doctors, nurses, teachers, engineers and so on. Which I must say sounds good. The sting in the tail is that the number in this category is limited to 20,000. All of the rest are either employees of multi-national companies who have mobility programs, or footballers or religious ministers. -tier 1 is very scarce but mainly seems to call out investors, rather than people you'd generally recognise as being "valuable" professionals. Noted but the Tier 5 should not be ignored. Is that not where the services industries get a lot of labour? I thought we were going to lose all our hotel staff and fruit pickers. I am a Tier 2 sponsor, it's a drag to get people in, lots of paperwork but they still want to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Angry Ram said: Just seen this on the HMRC website regarding the latest migration research. 2.1 Work There were 185,465 work-related visas granted in the year ending June 2019, 11% higher than the previous year, and the highest level since the year ending March 2009. The majority (69%) of the increase in the latest year can be accounted for by Skilled (Tier 2) work visas, which increased by 13% to 108,890 following a relatively stable period between 2015 and 2018. This category accounts for 59% of work-related visas granted. There were also increase in the number of Youth mobility and temporary worker (Tier 5) visas granted, up 7% to 43,122, and an increase in High-value (Tier 1) visas granted (up 36% to 7,492). For further details see ʻWhy do people come to the UK? To work’ and the data tables. And here was me thinking that our skilled workforce was leaving in droves and UKPLC was dead. Appears not so and working in this dead duck post Brexit economy, might not be so bad. But don't we want to take back control of our own borders. That we need to stop all those scrounging Johnny Foreigners, coming over here and abusing our NHS. Oh, so their not here to just to claim dole money. Their here to work and contribute to our economy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 9 minutes ago, Highgate said: Point 3 is perfectly valid if you manage not to confuse the words what and why. What people were voting on and why they voted for it are entirely different things. Leave was so ambiguous that's even it's leading advocates can't agree on what it means 3 years after the vote. No it's not. Behave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Angry Ram Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 1 minute ago, 1of4 said: But don't we want to take back control of our own borders. That we need to stop all those scrounging Johnny Foreigners, coming over here and abusing our NHS. Oh, so their not here to just to claim dole money. Their here to work and contribute to our economy. But that's the point it is controlled for people coming in from outside the EU. It's a balls ache sometimes but it works. As Hants said Tier 2 is regulated numbers wise. That's a good thing really as you have to prove who you want to bring in is vital and that role cannot be performed by somebody in the UK. The main point was is... All I hear is about rats leaving a sinking ship. Companies departing in droves. UKPLC inconsequential now. If there was a reduction in applications, there might have been an argument but it's at a highest level since 2009. The UK is STILL an attractive place to come and work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 4 minutes ago, 1of4 said: But don't we want to take back control of our own borders. That we need to stop all those scrounging Johnny Foreigners, coming over here and abusing our NHS. Oh, so their not here to just to claim dole money. Their here to work and contribute to our economy. All of them? Me personally, I welcome immigrants who come to better themselves and help our economy. But I'd like to see a sensible system that ensures that this is what we are getting. I'm not sure why people are against that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 On 05/11/2019 at 17:02, Bound 2 tease said: No, but I can knock one up on the back of a postcard if you like Good going @Bound 2 tease Knock-off bent autographs is the kind of industry that will see the country right once Boris has 'Got BREXIT Done', and we are in the low tax nirvana as promised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stive Pesley Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 38 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Me personally, I welcome immigrants who come to better themselves and help our economy. But I'd like to see a sensible system that ensures that this is what we are getting. Such as? I'm pretty sure that refugees fleeing war zones are coming here to "better themselves" (that's an ugly term) - and would love to help our economy given the chance. So maybe a sensible system that includes more jobs and doesn't include detention centres is what you're after? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC27 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 I have a terrible feeling the momentum is currently with Labour. As with all elections it’s the first few weeks that count. If that’s the case then they will put back our economy 10 fold, high borrowing followed by higher taxes no doubt. I can never understand this Victorian view of the Conservative party being only for the rich. Over the last 10 years they have reduced taxes for lower earners year after year and set a benighted system that means that people are always better off in work than on benefits which always should be the case. Labour will set our country back by higher if taxes and increasing benefits meaning people will be less likely to work, as a consequence of this there will be less income available to pay these benefits and they will up our borrowing. Unfortunately we have a two party system and neither fill me with any confidence. The conservatives have dragged our country back onto its feet but BJ is to controversial to form a majority. Who else is there to vote for? Liberal Democrats have some really good policies but their position on Brexit in disgusting. I’m a support of Brexit but theBrexit party in my view are trying to push through something that could ruin our country’s economy for years. We are in a stated of paralysis in our current political system we have no leaders to look up to and believe they I’ll make a difference to our country. Bad times ahead for this country I’m afraid, Labour Party will bribe the student and lie to the working class (of whom I would identify) and we will end up with the worst labour government in our political history, imagine that front bench... Dianne Abbott Jeremy corbyn and co. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCFC27 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Such as? I'm pretty sure that refugees fleeing war zones are coming here to "better themselves" (that's an ugly term) - and would love to help our economy given the chance. So maybe a sensible system that includes more jobs and doesn't include detention centres is what you're after? Why should help? They pass through half a dozen first world countries to enter ours. We are already too densely populated. We should be accepting people that can do a job that we have a shortage off NHS/Teachers etc. We send enough aid to other countries why feel guilty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1of4 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 12 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Such as? I'm pretty sure that refugees fleeing war zones are coming here to "better themselves" (that's an ugly term) - and would love to help our economy given the chance. So maybe a sensible system that includes more jobs and doesn't include detention centres is what you're after? The EU have a sensible system when it comes to the movement of people around it's member states. It's our government's choice not to fully utilise it, the same way as other countries do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 10 minutes ago, DcfcJB said: Why should help? They pass through half a dozen first world countries to enter ours. We are already too densely populated. We should be accepting people that can do a job that we have a shortage off NHS/Teachers etc. We send enough aid to other countries why feel guilty? It's humane. It's benevolent. It's the nice thing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 36 minutes ago, SchtivePesley said: Such as? I'm pretty sure that refugees fleeing war zones are coming here to "better themselves" (that's an ugly term) - and would love to help our economy given the chance. So maybe a sensible system that includes more jobs and doesn't include detention centres is what you're after? Less wars for oil might help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 27 minutes ago, DcfcJB said: Over the last 10 years they have reduced taxes for lower earners year after year They have also reduced NHS, social and elderly care so that low earners have to pay more for care than previous. Lower taxation does not mean people are better off if they have to pay more for services they need. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhiteHorseRam Posted November 7, 2019 Share Posted November 7, 2019 39 minutes ago, DcfcJB said: I have a terrible feeling the momentum is currently with Labour. Don't worry @DcfcJB Corbyn is as much use as a chocolate fire guard. He has brain washed 500,000 people but driven off masses of middle-of the-road Labour folks. I am not sure he could get a majority mathematically even, as he has made no effort north of the border and the SNP continue to flatten Labour, and he needs those seats to counter-act the Tory Home Counties bloc who vote for anything with a blue rosette on it. He will make lots of noise, but come the EXIT poll result on 12 Dec at about 10pm ….. ouch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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