Comrade 86 Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 2 minutes ago, Norman said: Hand forced by SNP and Lib Dems. He was about to be crushed from all sides. Not that many on here care or understand. 438 - 20 I think that speaks volumes, even to the rest of us whom, unlike your good self, don't really understand things ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Ram Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 5 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: 438 - 20 I think that speaks volumes, even to the rest of us whom, unlike your good self, don't really understand things ? Didn’t more than 110 Labour MPs abstain or even voted against an election. It is pretty clear that they are not marching into battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 1 minute ago, ariotofmyown said: Think a good and potential result in this election will be a Remain coalition government. Corbyn would be PM but with the other parties preventing him getting his Stalinist ideas through, well the imagined ones by the media anyway. I think Remainers will be well geared up for this one whereas the Leavers will be already fearing the worst. Many Leavers will have been put off by all the No Deal freaks and fears for their jobs will push them towards Remain. Difficult to see any Remain area voting Tory and plenty of Labour Leave areas are never gonna go Tory. Hopefully Brexit party splits the vote and Labour cling on. I think it would be good for the United Kingdom to come back together with a coalition cabinet of Labour, Libs, Green, Welsh, SNP, moderate NI party and moderate ex-Tory Independents. Then have a 2nd referendum on an agreed deal vs Remain. Priority has to be getting Johnson to lose his seat, hence the rumours of him running away to Sevenoaks. I can definitely see this as a plausible outcome. The Bullingdon club are hideously split, with Boris checking ditches to see which might be comfiest, Labour seek renegotiation of Bungle's 'plan' and a people's vote to sanction it, the SNP are remain through and through, the LibDems want to cancel Brexit full-stop, the DUP hate Bungle's deal, the Independents hate Brexit, Plaid Cymru want another referendum, Greens are 'remain' and the Brexit mob will merely serve to split the Tory vote. Hardly cut and dried really, is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RamNut Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 Unfortunately i think Remain is dead in the water. With Labour flip flopping to support brexit, they are unable to revert to promoting Remain once again. Labour have been wrong footed by Brexit for so long. I suspect that the SNP and the Lib-dems see Labour weakness as an opportunity to make potential gains. Unfortunately the Tories will storm it. Blow Job will get the majority he craves and we'll get another four or five years of Tory austerity, cuts, and general nastiness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 Read earlier that the Tory lead over Labour before the 2017 election was double what is is now. This election will have even more Remainer tactical voting than last time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 Just now, i-Ram said: Didn’t more than 110 Labour MPs abstain or even voted against an election. It is pretty clear that they are not marching into battle. The bill passed tonight paves the way for the the December election. Had 110 Labour MPs opposed the election strongly enough, one might reasonably assume the 'no' voters might total more than 20. As things stand, I'd say 'battle' lines are well and truly drawn and it's about bloody time. As for Corbyn's alleged reticence, he has said of this vote's consequences, "This election is a once-in-a-generation chance to transform our country and take on the vested interests holding people back." Seems pretty unequivocal to me but then I don't 'understand things' so it's entirely possible that I'm completely wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
i-Ram Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 16 minutes ago, 86 Schmokes & a Pancake said: The bill passed tonight paves the way for the the December election. Had 110 Labour MPs opposed the election strongly enough, one might reasonably assume the 'no' voters might total more than 20. As things stand, I'd say 'battle' lines are well and truly drawn and it's about bloody time. As for Corbyn's alleged reticence, he has said of this vote's consequences, "This election is a once-in-a-generation chance to transform our country and take on the vested interests holding people back." Seems pretty unequivocal to me but then I don't 'understand things' so it's entirely possible that I'm completely wrong. 100 abstained. Corbyn said broadly the same back in 2017 when kicking off the campaign. That campaign nearly worked for him, but imo he has lost much popular support over the last couple of years. Should be an interesting bunfight in the weeks ahead ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Comrade 86 Posted October 29, 2019 Share Posted October 29, 2019 Just now, i-Ram said: 100 abstained. Corbyn said broadly the same back in 2017 when kicking off the campaign. That campaign nearly worked for him, but imo he has lost much popular support over the last couple of years. Should be an interesting bunfight in the weeks ahead ? I understood your point and I'm not disputing it. I'm merely of the opinion that these objectors could have voted 'no' for all the good it would have done. The fact they merely abstained speaks plenty or it does to me at least. Perhaps the section of the Labour party that lacks conviction is not Corbyn and his shadow cabinet after all, but the Tory-lite middle-ground merchants. One thing I do feel quite confident in is the belief that a Tory landslide is not by any means the foregone conclusion some would have us believe. They are a party every bit as divided as Labour IMO. As you say, an interesting few weeks ahead as we finally poo or climb off the pot. I think no matter where one stands on the Brexit and / or the party-political spectrum, this ought to be welcome news as this period of Brexit-induced stagnation serves no one well bar the wealthy few who have been merrily shorting Sterling as the car-crash unfolded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uttoxram75 Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 The forthcoming election will decide the future of the NHS. A majority for Conservative/Brexit/Lib Dems will see the end of free healthcare in the UK. I can't see any other result unfortunately and I feel so guilty toward my parents generation who fought so hard and so bravely to give us a better life than they had. ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sith Happens Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 7 hours ago, uttoxram75 said: The forthcoming election will decide the future of the NHS. A majority for Conservative/Brexit/Lib Dems will see the end of free healthcare in the UK. I can't see any other result unfortunately and I feel so guilty toward my parents generation who fought so hard and so bravely to give us a better life than they had. ? Is that fact though? If so to what timescale will this happen? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndyinLiverpool Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 11 minutes ago, Paul71 said: Is that fact though? If so to what timescale will this happen? No, it’s a prediction. Some come true, some don’t. See also any of the weekly prediction threads on this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 For sale: The NHS https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-us-trade-deal-trump-boris-johnson-healthcare-drug-prices-liz-truss-a9175261.html I hope the brexiteers realise that the UK will be very weak post brexit, regardless of what deal we will get. Still waiting for proof that counters that. Some people don't realise that Trump and Johnson are peas in a same pod. It's all about them and their rich buddies, screw the middle/working class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 24 minutes ago, McRamFan said: For sale: The NHS https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-us-trade-deal-trump-boris-johnson-healthcare-drug-prices-liz-truss-a9175261.html I hope the brexiteers realise that the UK will be very weak post brexit, regardless of what deal we will get. Still waiting for proof that counters that. Some people don't realise that Trump and Johnson are peas in a same pod. It's all about them and their rich buddies, screw the middle/working class. Sorry I must have missed your 'proof' that the 'UK will be very weak'. Surely proof can only be provided once something has happened, otherwise it's just a prediction or forecast, mostly with biased slants. FWIW most Leavers that I know expected short term pain but thought it was worth taking for leaving the EU. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McRamFan Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: Sorry I must have missed your 'proof' that the 'UK will be very weak'. Surely proof can only be provided once something has happened, otherwise it's just a prediction or forecast, mostly with biased slants. FWIW most Leavers that I know expected short term pain but thought it was worth taking for leaving the EU. Apply common sense and some business acumen and you might get there. You stated you have your own accountancy business. So Rolls Royce need a new accountant, they have two choices; you and KPMG, who do you think is going to be the front runner? Multinational is looking to expand, has two choices to go to first. The EU or the UK 450 million customers vs 60 million. If you think that Johnson won't sell off the NHS, you are utterly naive. The US will just pick the flesh off bones of the carcass of the UK post brexit, it's just business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 I sometimes read Conservativehome forum to see what they are thinking. There is definitely not a mood of optimism on there. Think this could matter too as it seems to be a place for activists and people who actually do things for the Tories at a practical level. Brexiteer posters are much keener on Farage's motley crew and they are furious that Remainers have been given the whip back. More centrist people aren't massively keen on Johnson and are already critical on his electioneering style vs Corbyn (Venezuela bantz and Dracula metaphors vs NHS and Schools). They are also unsure why they just didn't carry on with Brexit for a little longer as it makes them an easy target...currently they have blocked Brexit. If opposition had blocked it over the next few weeks, then they could have played this card. Paddy Power offering 5/6 on Tory majority and Evens on No Overall Majority. If you are a normal person, without strong views on Brexit, and who knows that things would get difficult financially if you lost your job, which message would most resonate with you... Vote for us, we'll Leave regardless of the deal and ignore the wishes of the 48% Vote for us, we'll cancel Brexit and ignore the wishes of the 52% Vote for us, we'll negotiate a deal that best protects business and workers, then have a referendum that this time contains known outcomes. The people can decide if notions of sovereignty and independence outweigh free trade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ariotofmyown Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 17 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: FWIW most Leavers that I know expected short term pain but thought it was worth taking for leaving the EU. Were they ok with losing their job for short term pain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexxxxx Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 I can only think corbyn has allowed this election as he feels this is the only slim chance he could be PM before he's pushed out. The bookies certainly don't think labour can win and I think casually that's the case. If Labour wins this, it will be a miracle. If they lose, corbyn will be retired by Christmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 13 minutes ago, McRamFan said: Apply common sense and some business acumen and you might get there. You stated you have your own accountancy business. So Rolls Royce need a new accountant, they have two choices; you and KPMG, who do you think is going to be the front runner? Multinational is looking to expand, has two choices to go to first. The EU or the UK 450 million customers vs 60 million. If you think that Johnson won't sell off the NHS, you are utterly naive. The US will just pick the flesh off bones of the carcass of the UK post brexit, it's just business. Well I'm glad we established you have no proof and your comments are just based on your outstanding common sense and business acumen. I have no idea how individual countries will decide who to do trade deals with, I'd imagine there are other considerations other than the number of inhabitants. Can we have your timescale for BJ selling off the NHS please...just so I can assess how accurate your predictions are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G STAR RAM Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 10 minutes ago, ariotofmyown said: Were they ok with losing their job for short term pain? They said if there was a guarantee that no jobs would ever be lost if we stayed in the EU then they would vote Remain. I wasnt aware that job losses only ever started after the Referendum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GboroRam Posted October 30, 2019 Share Posted October 30, 2019 5 minutes ago, G STAR RAM said: I have no idea how individual countries will decide who to do trade deals with If we'd had that level of honesty from the start, we may be in a better position than we are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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