Watchable telly

[AndyinLiverpool]

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

The Gentlemen - spin off series from Guy Ritchie's film of the same title. Shan't say too much to avoid giving anything away, but with a strong cast and a sharp and often funny script, this rattles along with the occasional nod to early outings from the director. Ritchie fans will be pleased to know that Ritchie revisits all of his favourite schticks: drug dealers, the aristocracy, pikeys and arrogant Americans, so if Ritchie is your bag, then you'll probably love this. Great fun without taking itself too seriously.

Do you need to watch the film first?

[Bob The Badger]

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

The Gentlemen - spin off series from Guy Ritchie's film of the same title. Shan't say too much to avoid giving anything away, but with a strong cast and a sharp and often funny script, this rattles along with the occasional nod to early outings from the director. Ritchie fans will be pleased to know that Ritchie revisits all of his favourite schticks: drug dealers, the aristocracy, pikeys and arrogant Americans, so if Ritchie is your bag, then you'll probably love this. Great fun without taking itself too seriously.

Ditto. 

If you had no clue who's made it you'd know who made it inside 10 minutes. Good fun, 2 episodes in. 

[Bob The Badger]

33 minutes ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Do you need to watch the film first?

No. 

[Comrade 86]

12 hours ago, AndyinLiverpool said:

Do you need to watch the film first?

No, completely distinct, but both are worth a watch if you have time, Andy.

[Comrade 86]

Plenty of pedigree, so was really looking forward to Masters of the Air, but what a steaming pile this show really is. Playing fast and loose with historical facts and the truth in general, the show goes out of its way to portray the English pilots as insipid toffs saved only by their vastly superior American counterparts in their vastly superior planes, I'm left staggered by the arrogance and stupidity of its makers. Have none of the show's makers heard of the Battle of Britain?

[Crewton]

19 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

Plenty of pedigree, so was really looking forward to Masters of the Air, but what a steaming pile this show really is. Playing fast and loose with historical facts and the truth in general, the show goes out of its way to portray the English pilots as insipid toffs saved only by their vastly superior American counterparts in their vastly superior planes, I'm left staggered by the arrogance and stupidity of its makers. Have none of the show's makers heard of the Battle of Britain?

British and Commonwealth bomber crews had an overall casualty rate 4.5x that of USAF crews, because the Americans flew more of their sorties during the later phase of bombing operations when fighter escorts were available in greater numbers and the Luftwaffe and German air defences in general were at their weakest, as this comprehensive post on Reddit illustrates perfectly:

The makers of this series appear to be archetypal American tw@s.

[Crewton]

These Imdb reviews seem to sum it up perfectly.

https://m.imdb.com/title/tt2640044/reviews/

[Comrade 86]

7 minutes ago, Crewton said:

British and Commonwealth bomber crews had an overall casualty rate 4.5x that of USAF crews, because the Americans flew more of their sorties during the later phase of bombing operations when fighter escorts were available in greater numbers and the Luftwaffe and German air defences in general were at their weakest, as this comprehensive post on Reddit illustrates perfectly:

The makers of this series appear to be archetypal American tw@s.

I tend to turn a blind eye to Hollywood's rampant Anglophobia, but I just find this show incredibly disrespectful considering the huge losses incurred, not just by Blighty, but also the many brave pilots from the wider Commonwealth. How inadequate do you have to feel in order to think that rewriting history like this actually makes the American war effort more significant and just how grateful must the Western world be? 

[richinspain]

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

Plenty of pedigree, so was really looking forward to Masters of the Air, but what a steaming pile this show really is. Playing fast and loose with historical facts and the truth in general, the show goes out of its way to portray the English pilots as insipid toffs saved only by their vastly superior American counterparts in their vastly superior planes, I'm left staggered by the arrogance and stupidity of its makers. Have none of the show's makers heard of the Battle of Britain?

Yes, I was really looking forward to this. The first two episodes (released at the same time) set the tone, but I hoped that the anti-Brit angle would change. It did, it got worse. All very nice to look at, but not a patch on the previous series of the same ilk by the same producers.

[Crewton]

And just to put it in stark figures, out of a total of 125,000 aircrew who flew with RAF Bomber Command, 55,573 were killed, a 44.4% death rate. A further 8,403 men were wounded in action, and 9,838 became prisoners of war. What isn't recorded is how many died prematurely after the war ended, whether through suicide, depression or the effects of their injuries. To paint them as snobs and cowards is a gross calumny.

[Elwood P Dowd]

The American daylight bombing of Germany was saved by fitting the Merlin engine into the P51 Mustang, the laminar form of the P51 wing combined with the RR Merlin engine allowed the fighter to escort the Bombers into the heart of Germany. Without the P51 the Americans would not have been able sustain the losses of both crews and aircraft. The B17 was a large aircraft but its bomb load was similar to the RAF Mosquito, the B17 relied on its Armament for defence which reduced its payload whereas the Mosquito, made mostly of wood, relied on its speed for defence. 

 

 

[Comrade 86]

2 hours ago, richinspain said:

Yes, I was really looking forward to this. The first two episodes (released at the same time) set the tone, but I hoped that the anti-Brit angle would change. It did, it got worse. All very nice to look at, but not a patch on the previous series of the same ilk by the same producers.

Yep, Band of Brothers was the reason I was looking forward to this show. Obviously that too depicts the American war effort as herculean and immense, which in some regards It was, but not at a cost whereby co-combatants are actually demeaned. Grrr!

[Crewton]

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

Yep, Band of Brothers was the reason I was looking forward to this show. Obviously that too depicts the American war effort as herculean and immense, which in some regards It was, but not at a cost whereby co-combatants are actually demeaned. Grrr!

I read the book by Stephen Ambrose that the HBO series was based on, and the series is pretty faithful to the book. It was based on interviews with the survivors of Easy Company, particularly Richard Winter (portrayed by Damien Lewis in the TV series). That series set a standard for historical accuracy that no US film or TV series on the subject of WW2 has yet managed to emulate IMO.

[Elwood P Dowd]

1 hour ago, Comrade 86 said:

Yep, Band of Brothers was the reason I was looking forward to this show. Obviously that too depicts the American war effort as herculean and immense, which in some regards It was, but not at a cost whereby co-combatants are actually demeaned. Grrr!

I agree with the above, the Masters of the Air could have dealt with other combatants by simply ignoring the RAF.

Band of Brothers is exceptional 👍

The RAF did try daylight bombing early in the war but the German fighters knocked them out of the sky, the RAF changed its tactics. The US Airforce ignored the RAFs experience  and bombed during daylight, this was partly due to the Norden bomb sight which was only any good in daylight.

 

Edited March 12 by Elwood P Dowd

[Comrade 86]

6 minutes ago, Crewton said:

I read the book by Stephen Ambrose that the HBO series was based on, and the series is pretty faithful to the book. It was based on interviews with the survivors of Easy Company, particularly Richard Winter (portrayed by Damien Lewis in the TV series). That series set a standard for historical accuracy that no US film or TV series on the subject of WW2 has yet managed to emulate IMO.

Ah yes, you've reminded me that some of the characters depicted are actually featured. I'd completely forgotten that. Rare for me to revisit shows, even favourites, but I think I've watched BoB 3 times end to end. It's a stunning piece of filmmaking which is a world apart from the garbage served up this time around. I don't feel any connection with the characters portrayed in MOTA which ironically I did with a tiny super low budget movie I watched recently which despite being shot on shoestring, really made me understand the horrors endured by fighter pilots and bomber crews. I can't recall what it's called, but it was shot for under a million quid!

If you don't mind me asking, are you a historian of sorts yourself or was it a chosen field in your academic past. You seem particularly well informed. I'm not sure of your age, but it always surprised me that WW2 was not even in the curriculum I studied, yet medieval Britain was covered endlessly. 

[Crewton]

7 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

Ah yes, you've reminded me that some of the characters depicted are actually featured. I'd completely forgotten that. Rare for me to revisit shows, even favourites, but I think I've watched BoB 3 times end to end. It's a stunning piece of filmmaking which is a world apart from the garbage served up this time around. I don't feel any connection with the characters portrayed in MOTA which ironically I did with a tiny super low budget movie I watched recently which despite being shot on shoestring, really made me understand the horrors endured by fighter pilots and bomber crews. I can't recall what it's called, but it was shot for under a million quid!

If you don't mind me asking, are you a historian of sorts yourself or was it a chosen field in your academic past. You seem particularly well informed. I'm not sure of your age, but it always surprised me that WW2 was not even in the curriculum I studied, yet medieval Britain was covered endlessly. 

BoB is indeed a stunning piece of work. When you see the interviews with the survivors of Easy Company, you realise that they were 100x the people that are portrayed for dramatic effect in MotA. Richard Winter in particular was one hell of a soldier and an incredible leader of men.

As for me, I'm purely an amateur historian, something I've loved since I was a nipper. I'm of the age whereby my parents, grandparents and other relatives lived through the major wars of the 20th century, some as combatants, others as civvies. Some died, some avoided death and injury fortuitously, and I found all their stories fascinating, although those who served in combat roles rarely talked about that aspect of it and I suppose that made curious about what such people experienced. That's why I find BoB (and other unvarnished war films) educational as well as enjoyable. It also makes me grateful that I've never had to face the choices and witness the horrors that some of them had to.

[Ram-Alf]

5 hours ago, Crewton said:

The makers of this series appear to be archetypal American tw@s.

I drink in the Railway in Belper when the Town are at home 😁

The last home game there were 4 people sitting behind us, 2 English(male/female and the same with the other 2 but Americans all 4 I guess were mid to late 50s, The Americans have an accent that stands out a mile.

USA male was talking about Pearl Harbour...it got my attention and the horror the Japanese caused, He then went on and produced to say how the USA won WW2...if truth beknown without their manpower and equipment he wasn't far wrong, I really wanted to say summat but thought better of it.

A couple or 3 pints later USA man said they have never lost a War, We were putting our coats on and I had to say...excuse me...but you have, Oh he replied which one and when.

1861/1865 American Civil War...the South lost...my mates 🤣

I'll give that series a miss...thanks for the info 👍

[Ram-Alf]

34 minutes ago, Comrade 86 said:

Ah yes, you've reminded me that some of the characters depicted are actually featured. I'd completely forgotten that. Rare for me to revisit shows, even favourites, but I think I've watched BoB 3 times end to end. It's a stunning piece of filmmaking which is a world apart from the garbage served up this time around. 

A cracking film as was Hacksaw Ridge who featured Desmond Doss a real serviceman

The USA service men in WW2 took as much shyte as the rest of the Allies in all battles, The atrocities of Malmedy and The 333rd Field Artillery at the Battle of the Bulge.

USA filmmakers are notorious for making a fairy story out of facts  

[Comrade 86]

10 minutes ago, Crewton said:

BoB is indeed a stunning piece of work. When you see the interviews with the survivors of Easy Company, you realise that they were 100x the people that are portrayed for dramatic effect in MotA. Richard Winter in particular was one hell of a soldier and an incredible leader of men.

As for me, I'm purely an amateur historian, something I've loved since I was a nipper. I'm of the age whereby my parents, grandparents and other relatives lived through the major wars of the 20th century, some as combatants, others as civvies. Some died, some avoided death and injury fortuitously, and I found all their stories fascinating, although those who served in combat roles rarely talked about that aspect of it and I suppose that made curious about what such people experienced. That's why I find BoB (and other unvarnished war films) educational as well as enjoyable. It also makes me grateful that I've never had to face the choices and witness the horrors that some of them had to.

Indeed, it's very much a case of but for the grace of God.

Would you recommend The Pacific, assuming you've watched it? Oddly, I've never have, perhaps because it wasn't as feted as BoB, though now that I think about it, I'm not sure if it was the same team who filmed it.

[Comrade 86]

3 minutes ago, Ram-Alf said:

A cracking film as was Hacksaw Ridge who featured Desmond Doss a real serviceman

The USA service men in WW2 took as much shyte as the rest of the Allies in all battles, The atrocities of Malmedy and The 333rd Field Artillery at the Battle of the Bulge.

USA filmmakers are notorious for making a fairy story out of facts  

I'm sure you'll have  seen it Alf, but Gallipoli is another film that rather bashes the English, though my sense of it was that perhaps it was not a wholly unfair appraisal. Accurate or not, I do think it's a wonderful piece of filmmaking even if it's a little uncomfortable for us Brits.

Think I may need to do some reading and educate myself on the period. Sadly, I think mine is possibly the first of the recent generations whose principle exposure to 'history' is more shaped by Hollywood than historians. It's not lost on me that while Hollywood is very willing to paint Britain's past indiscretions, it's rather less comfortable turning the same optics inwards.