Rising tide of performance?

Ninos · November 21, 2017

Let’s review the facts here ...

1. He’s inherited a side which had bottled at every step - thanks in my opinion to a bottling tactically inept naive manager followed by a mish mesh of players all bought or forced into a formation. Now a bloated squad still where he’s inherited paycheque-collecting mediocre players. He’s tried to stabilise by bringing in tough old hands -hudds Davies and Ledley.

2. The old toughies have slowed us down but made us resilient.

3. He’s put his attacking creative faith in Lawrence who overall has been a mild disappointment but he claims we should stick with him. Fair enough

4. What he has done is made almost all of our starters more valuable - Vydra has value now as does Johnson Nugent Etc

5. The style unless it’s switched on like it was v Hull is mostly boring because The defence Hudds and Ledley are ponderous uncreative and slow. This will end once he figures out how to introduce Luke Thomas. The strikers certainly aren’t dull and have been clinical

6. He’s sold everyone we’ve had an offer for. I like all the trades except for Hughes and the offloading of Bryson but he can only release players other teams want. January will be telling and the true measure

7. Away from home it’s a reality that unless you’re barcelona or man city you have to play different. It’s almost a statistical certainty that home sides attack and do better. You simply have to account for that in modern football. He does a good job on this. We know that we are a very tough nut to crack away from home

8. He needs to put his money where his mouth is with the youth but has hinted that with Jan departures he’ll start to do that.

He has a chance to succeed but it’s far too early to judge because he’s making do with the junk he’s inherited ... some he’s just pushed to the side others he’s managed to galvanise ...

I think the best is yet to come but it’s hard to deny that it’s painful to watch in how slow we are at the back and in the middle, and he must increase the attractiveness at home. Introduce exciting pacy skilled flair youth like Thomas Zanzala Lowe Elsnik and we are half way there ... the tide should rise if he is who he says he is

Alph · November 21, 2017

15 minutes ago, Ninos said:

Let’s review the facts here ...

1. He’s inherited a side which had bottled at every step - thanks in my opinion to a bottling tactically inept naive manager followed by a mish mesh of players all bought or forced into a formation. Now a bloated squad still where he’s inherited paycheque-collecting mediocre players. He’s tried to stabilise by bringing in tough old hands -hudds Davies and Ledley.

2. The old toughies have slowed us down but made us resilient.

3. He’s put his attacking creative faith in Lawrence who overall has been a mild disappointment but he claims we should stick with him. Fair enough

4. What he has done is made almost all of our starters more valuable - Vydra has value now as does Johnson Nugent Etc

5. The style unless it’s switched on like it was v Hull is mostly boring because The defence Hudds and Ledley are ponderous uncreative and slow. This will end once he figures out how to introduce Luke Thomas. The strikers certainly aren’t dull and have been clinical

6. He’s sold everyone we’ve had an offer for. I like all the trades except for Hughes and the offloading of Bryson but he can only release players other teams want. January will be telling and the true measure

7. Away from home it’s a reality that unless you’re barcelona or man city you have to play different. It’s almost a statistical certainty that home sides attack and do better. You simply have to account for that in modern football. He does a good job on this. We know that we are a very tough nut to crack away from home

8. He needs to put his money where his mouth is with the youth but has hinted that with Jan departures he’ll start to do that.

He has a chance to succeed but it’s far too early to judge because he’s making do with the junk he’s inherited ... some he’s just pushed to the side others he’s managed to galvanise ...

I think the best is yet to come but it’s hard to deny that it’s painful to watch in how slow we are at the back and in the middle, and he must increase the attractiveness at home. Introduce exciting pacy skilled flair youth like Thomas Zanzala Lowe Elsnik and we are half way there ... the tide should rise if he is who he says he is

Point 1 and 8

Doesn't make sense. If he inherited a bloated squad looking for a pay cheque then how can they be bottlers? He either inherited a good squad that bottled it or a "junk" squad that over achieved.

Point 2

The old toughies? Are these not players looking for a pay cheque? Old players aren't really long term planners are they? At 30-35 What would you want from football? To hang on to the level you're at and collect as much money as possible before retirement. Would these not be your players looking for a pay cheque

Point 4.

Vydra was valued at £8m when we bought him.

Point 5

He signed both. He let go of Hughes, Bryson. He took away youth and energy for 2 older slower lads.

Point 8

2 of the back 4 are his signings. The fastest and most attacking are 2 he didn't sign. The middle... 2 were his signings. And then there's Lawrence in the attack

Ninos · November 21, 2017

4 minutes ago, Alpha said:

Point 1 and 8

Doesn't make sense. If he inherited a bloated squad looking for a pay cheque then how can they be bottlers? He either inherited a good squad that bottled it or a "junk" squad that over achieved.

Point 2

The old toughies? Are these not players looking for a pay cheque? Old players aren't really long term planners are they? At 30-35 What would you want from football? To hang on to the level you're at and collect as much money as possible before retirement. Would these not be your players looking for a pay cheque

Point 4.

Vydra was valued at £8m when we bought him.

Point 5

He signed both. He let go of Hughes, Bryson. He took away youth and energy for 2 older slower lads.

Point 8

2 of the back 4 are his signings. The fastest and most attacking are 2 he didn't sign. The middle... 2 were his signings. And then there's Lawrence in the attack

Vydra is good but wasn’t worth £8m at the time probably £3m - chucking away the Hendrick cash. We overpaid which wouldn’t have happened under Rowett. Under Mac he was worth nothing and now he’s prob worth what, £5m?, so his stock is clearly rising. The managers remit is to increase the value of players and regardless of all else he’s doing that

Alph · November 21, 2017

10 minutes ago, Ninos said:

Vydra is good but wasn’t worth £8m at the time probably £3m - chucking away the Hendrick cash. We overpaid which wouldn’t have happened under Rowett. Under Mac he was worth nothing and now he’s prob worth what, £5m?, so his stock is clearly rising. The managers remit is to increase the value of players and regardless of all else he’s doing that

Right, what about the rest?

In a bottling season or seasons how come the value of our players has gone up?

And then there's points 1,2,5 And 8

VulcanRam · November 22, 2017

It's sad to read your thoughts @Alpha I have a season ticket and live only three miles from PP but couldn't be bothered going last night for all the reasons you point out.

Judging by the texts I received from my mates at the ground it was the right decision. And before everyone jumps on the "what do you want, we won?" or "there's no pleasing some people" bandwagon, the answer is enjoyment and entertainment, to watch good football, to want to go not feel I have to. To not sit there bored for 90 minutes punctuated by the odd goal. We won last night, but can anyone tell me genuinely it was a good game, that they came away buzzing? Or was it more, " that was alright, we weren't great but hey, it's 3 points"?

Last night was the first home game I've deliberately missed for years, and it wasn't even a hard decision. That must tell you something. The rising tide of performance might well come, and I hope it does, because that will hopefully bring back the enthusiasm.

The Scarlet Pimpernel · November 22, 2017

The "buzz" cant be artificially manufactured. I live 200 miles away but usually get up to see a good half dozen home games as well as the same number of away games. This season however the Villa game will be my first. I'm still engaged and interested in DCFC but I don't yet trust this team. I want to know that going home on the 4 hour trip I don't feel disappointed, not with the result but with the performance.

I expected before now that we would be more fluent. I fully understand Gary has had to make us hard to beat and that would naturally affect our forward play BUT I'm starting to worry our fluidity is taking too long. I believe the players we have are capable of it but not sure why we are still looking disjointed. The only thing that will bring back the feel good factor and persuade people to attend matches is good exciting winning football. Soooo................Come on DCFC show us the talent you have!

ilkleyram · November 22, 2017

3 hours ago, VulcanRam said:

It's sad to read your thoughts @Alpha I have a season ticket and live only three miles from PP but couldn't be bothered going last night for all the reasons you point out.

Judging by the texts I received from my mates at the ground it was the right decision. And before everyone jumps on the "what do you want, we won?" or "there's no pleasing some people" bandwagon, the answer is enjoyment and entertainment, to watch good football, to want to go not feel I have to. To not sit there bored for 90 minutes punctuated by the odd goal. We won last night, but can anyone tell me genuinely it was a good game, that they came away buzzing? Or was it more, " that was alright, we weren't great but hey, it's 3 points"?

Last night was the first home game I've deliberately missed for years, and it wasn't even a hard decision. That must tell you something. The rising tide of performance might well come, and I hope it does, because that will hopefully bring back the enthusiasm.

Not trading mileages with you Vulcan but I drove 90 odd miles to be at PP last night and I'll do the same again on Saturday to Boro and be coming up from London for the Ipswich match cos I'm working there that day. I genuinely thought it was a good game last night and I'm certain it was a good and entertaining second half. Worth the journey and the Highways Agency numpties trying to make my way home worse than it should have been

I haven't counted but I guess that most of the 50 odd seasons I've watched have been outside the top flight, and a couple in the third tier. Along the way I've seen our greats and our awful and, mostly, our average. There's lots about this current team that gives me a buzz - how they are developing and changing to how they were a couple of years ago, the pleasure in seeing yet another young lad from our academy make his debut (it might just be an 'I was there moment', like Jeff and Will), two good goals, periods of fluency, good defending, good passing and even some good referreeing. And it's always fun to see Holloway apoplectic on the touchline.

I like watching a team's development - Brian's first season was not great, his second was (in the end) fantastic, the ones after were very, very good; Dave took that team further; Arthur's first season was about development, in his second we only just went up, his third and fourth were fantastic (on the field); Jim started slowly, we got Igor and then went on a great run for several seasons; Billy's side scraped through the PO final and never developed because he left; Mac 1 could have gone somewhere very good but he had his head turned.

In between times we've had a long list of a variety of managers largely failing (except Nigel who I think did a great job on not very much, Roy Mac who got us to a PO final and George Burley whose side played some entertaining stuff) because they were around for a relatively short period of time with no money or because they were pretty useless, or both. I don't think GR has the level of financial resource that we all imagine he has, I like him as a manager (without ever having met him) and I hope he gets the chance to continue his development of the team and the squad over at least the next 18 months and, if successful, beyond. I think he wants to play both entertaining and winning football but he is only at the beginning of creating that and there will be steps forward and backwards along the way. Some of the buzz for me is watching how he goes about it

BondJovi · November 22, 2017

Did you choose to avoid home games under NC, BD? PC? The Mac1 seasons are a rarity in our recent times.

I feel sorry for Rowett and the team, he has made us tougher, got more out of our most expensive player yet fans seem to dropping away. Is it really that bad? Is he paying the price for not being McClaren? Rowett had a similar job to NC, get some sense of squad unity, togetherness and trim the fat. Some big money was paid, a lot of the those players have lost value, not the fault of Rowett.

I think the issue lies with what happened since Mac1 and we cannot keep living and clinging to that brief period like it was everything that makes Derby.

We have a new lover now, sure they ain't as pretty as our previous but they rarely let us down and will stick with us when it gets tough. We still feel burnt and are reluctant to open our hearts and embrace something different. If you only ever compare to an idealised list, you'll never be happy. It is as though many of you had a taste of the (blonde) McClaren and refuse to even consider a brunette or any other.

This fixation, obsession with style of play has become a recent thing. So many arm chair experts, we see more football than ever before and in glorious detail. Why do you support Derby? Why did you ever go to matches? Is it not just Derby, but football itself?

TuffLuff · November 22, 2017

5 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

The "buzz" cant be artificially manufactured. I live 200 miles away but usually get up to see a good half dozen home games as well as the same number of away games. This season however the Villa game will be my first. I'm still engaged and interested in DCFC but I don't yet trust this team. I want to know that going home on the 4 hour trip I don't feel disappointed, not with the result but with the performance.

I expected before now that we would be more fluent. I fully understand Gary has had to make us hard to beat and that would naturally affect our forward play BUT I'm starting to worry our fluidity is taking too long. I believe the players we have are capable of it but not sure why we are still looking disjointed. The only thing that will bring back the feel good factor and persuade people to attend matches is good exciting winning football. Soooo................Come on DCFC show us the talent you have!

This is a good point and something I couldn’t quite put into the right words. Part of the problem is that partnerships aren’t forming that people thought were there, the big one being Nugent and Vydra for me (or as I like to call it the ramage wet dream). The other big worry is that we under utilise some players to suit others, but it’s got no long term benefit to the team as a whole. It’s working, but we are not effective (if that makes sense)

sunnyhill60 · November 22, 2017

" I genuinely thought it was a good game last night"

In the first 45 minutes we created nothing - zilch! All there was to do was watch the ball being given away.

The previous match was the same, a truly dire 45 minutes.

You can tell from Rowett's comments on both games he fully realises that many periods of dross were delivered.

kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong · November 22, 2017

9 minutes ago, The Scarlet Pimpernel said:

The "buzz" cant be artificially manufactured. I live 200 miles away but usually get up to see a good half dozen home games as well as the same number of away games. This season however the Villa game will be my first. I'm still engaged and interested in DCFC but I don't yet trust this team. I want to know that going home on the 4 hour trip I don't feel disappointed, not with the result but with the performance.

I expected before now that we would be more fluent. I fully understand Gary has had to make us hard to beat and that would naturally affect our forward play BUT I'm starting to worry our fluidity is taking too long. I believe the players we have are capable of it but not sure why we are still looking disjointed. The only thing that will bring back the feel good factor and persuade people to attend matches is good exciting winning football. Soooo................Come on DCFC show us the talent you have!

It was a very strange match to watch indeed.

We started by pressing well for about five minutes but it quickly went very flat and the crowd started to get frustrated...

By the time half time was approaching I think the team could sense they weren't going to get a sympathetic send off and they looked quite panicky....then a bit of great work by weiman fed veydra in and they were let off.

The second half started lethargically but then the second goal went in for us and QPR basically collapsed and allowed us far too much space..from that point on our play was more dynamic and the team started to play to the feet for the first time in as many matches that I can remember...the first half saw diagonal long balls mainly much to my frustration.

I almost got the impression that the team had forgotten the strict orders of play from GR and just played football for a bit....and it was much better.

GR then left several players on for too long and Nugent in particular was absolutely knackered and on his arse by the 75 minute when he came off.Poor team management I thought and thorne and Martin only had ten minutes or so on the pitch.

In my opinion this game wasn't a very good indicator of where we actually are...QPR were the worst team I've seen at pride park this year and we were dreadful first half.....

Middleborough may be an indicator of whether Gary has actually learnt anything about improving our performance or not.

VulcanRam · November 22, 2017

8 hours ago, ilkleyram said:

Not trading mileages with you Vulcan but I drove 90 odd miles to be at PP last night and I'll do the same again on Saturday to Boro and be coming up from London for the Ipswich match cos I'm working there that day. I genuinely thought it was a good game last night and I'm certain it was a good and entertaining second half. Worth the journey and the Highways Agency numpties trying to make my way home worse than it should have been

I haven't counted but I guess that most of the 50 odd seasons I've watched have been outside the top flight, and a couple in the third tier. Along the way I've seen our greats and our awful and, mostly, our average. There's lots about this current team that gives me a buzz - how they are developing and changing to how they were a couple of years ago, the pleasure in seeing yet another young lad from our academy make his debut (it might just be an 'I was there moment', like Jeff and Will), two good goals, periods of fluency, good defending, good passing and even some good referreeing. And it's always fun to see Holloway apoplectic on the touchline.

I like watching a team's development - Brian's first season was not great, his second was (in the end) fantastic, the ones after were very, very good; Dave took that team further; Arthur's first season was about development, in his second we only just went up, his third and fourth were fantastic (on the field); Jim started slowly, we got Igor and then went on a great run for several seasons; Billy's side scraped through the PO final and never developed because he left; Mac 1 could have gone somewhere very good but he had his head turned.

In between times we've had a long list of a variety of managers largely failing (except Nigel who I think did a great job on not very much, Roy Mac who got us to a PO final and George Burley whose side played some entertaining stuff) because they were around for a relatively short period of time with no money or because they were pretty useless, or both. I don't think GR has the level of financial resource that we all imagine he has, I like him as a manager (without ever having met him) and I hope he gets the chance to continue his development of the team and the squad over at least the next 18 months and, if successful, beyond. I think he wants to play both entertaining and winning football but he is only at the beginning of creating that and there will be steps forward and backwards along the way. Some of the buzz for me is watching how he goes about it

I'm with you all the way mate. I've no idea why it's all gone flat this end. I loved watching Clement build because although the football was slow and at some points tedious I had a sense of where we were aiming, so no problem. I don't like feeling like this, I assure you.

Nothing against GR, I'm a fan and hope with a couple of transfer windows things will improve.

Maybe its just being flat out on various other fronts has sapped my energy for it all! Ignore me!

Rev · November 22, 2017

On the rising tide of performance angle, Gary's certainly getting the best out of Vydra.

On course for a 20+ goal plus season, which would see us make our money back plus interest if he keeps it up.