Are some posters still trying to hate Nigel? Or does Wembley still hurt too much?

[sage]

Over the last year and increasingly so over the last couple of weeks, there has been a sustained, over the top campaign to belittle some of Derby's longest serving players. Martin, Keogh, Bryson and Russell have been taking fearful stick from a very committed, relentless almost obsessed group of posters. 

Now everyone is entitled to an opinion and we all view games and players slightly differently but there seems to be a pattern that some players are getting more stick than teammates who have worse records for Derby. Keogh gets more stick than Pearce, Bryson gets more stick than Johnson, Martin gets more stick than Bent and Russell gets more stick than Weimann, Blackman, Anya and Camara put together. 

Is this a way of trying to denigrate the Clough signings (and we have recruited so well between NC and GR) or is it that people want rid of anyone associated with that fateful day at Wembley?

Maybe is the sentimentalist in me but I would love to see some of those tearful, defeated finalists get promoted with Derby and lay those ghosts to rest.

Maybe it is just the short attention span of the 21st century and some are bored of these players, I honestly don't know but I feel there is something because collectively the judgement goes beyond the rational. 

[Andicis]

Don't think this has anything to do with Nigel Clough, I think people are just bored and want new faces, personally. 

[Day]

I don't think this has anything at all to do with Nigel Clough, players that have been at the club longer will have had more games to frustrate fans. 

Crap analogy time, you buy a product online from Amazon, it's great, you love it, how often do you go back on to leave a positive review?

You buy a product that was crap, waste of money, do you go back on to leave a negative review?

Almost 9 years this place has been running now, there has always been a trend where Derby win, play great it's quiet at 5pm.

Draw/Lose keyboards are being smashed around the world.

People like to vent their frustrations more than praise, just the way it is, so those players are the obvious target as like I say, they've been around the longest.

It's why I thought we should let Keogh leave this summer, not because he's a terrible defender, you won't find many better in this league. 

I just don't think he deserves the stick he gets and would be far more appreciated at a club with a fresh start.

You have to be a real special player that can avoid going stale and stay at a club for a lengthy period of time, fair to say none of those really are and that's not knocking them. Just not the same level as a Giggs or Scholes say.

[sage]

5 minutes ago, David said:

I don't think this has anything at all to do with Nigel Clough, players that have been at the club longer will have had more games to frustrate fans. 

Crap analogy time, you buy a product online from Amazon, it's great, you love it, how often do you go back on to leave a positive review?

You buy a product that was crap, waste of money, do you go back on to leave a negative review?

Almost 9 years this place has been running now, there has always been a trend where Derby win, play great it's quiet at 5pm.

Draw/Lose keyboards are being smashed around the world.

People like to vent their frustrations more than praise, just the way it is, so those players are the obvious target as like I say, they've been around the longest.

It's why I thought we should let Keogh leave this summer, not because he's a terrible defender, you won't find many better in this league. 

I just don't think he deserves the stick he gets and would be far more appreciated at a club with a fresh start.

You have to be a real special player that can avoid going stale and stay at a club for a lengthy period of time, fair to say none of those really are and that's not knocking them. Just not the same level as a Giggs or Scholes say.

So has Keogh gone stale?

If not, is he special?

[Derby blood]

For me and many other Rams fans, Keogh and Martin have been outstanding since they came to this club, so all these posters who want rid of them, have not got a clue, the team needs players who want to give sweat and tears for this club, and these 2 give that and more. 

[Andicis]

5 minutes ago, Derby blood said:

For me and many other Rams fans, Keogh and Martin have been outstanding since they came to this club, so all these posters who want rid of them, have not got a clue, the team needs players who want to give sweat and tears for this club, and these 2 give that and more. 

You're absolutely right, I don't know when people started picking on Martin, Keogh has been getting the jibes ever since Wembley, and yet these two have been some of our most consistently good players for a long time. Martin was our top scorer for many seasons whilst he was here, but people prefer someone who will run and not moan at the ref..

[Day]

14 minutes ago, sage said:

So has Keogh gone stale?

If not, is he special?

I think it's time he moved on, so you could say stale without doubting his ability.

He's played over 200 games at the club, that's a lot for a club with a highly ambitious fan base that wants promotion.

Now I'm not for a second placing any blame at all on Keogh for this, as Alpha quite rightly ranted the other day this is a team game.

Keogh has had the captains armband for a number of what are seen as "failed" seasons in some eyes, the spotlight will naturally fall on him more and any mistakes are are criticised more than others.

Remember when Pearce wasn't in the team? He got better by the week, once he started playing he got worse by the week.

Players have very short shelf life's now, I blame that FIFA Ultimate Team, trading footballers like cards after a game or two!

You have Rowett playing down the armband, current players and ex Professionals playing it down, yet fans were very vocal in their disappointment that Keogh retained the piece of elastic.

Going into a new season with this negativity over players isn't what we need, when Rowett spoke of freshening up the side, looking at those that have been at the club a little longer I think many saw that as a new Derby coming, yet the reality is most of what we saw at Sunderland we've seen for years now. 

Had we had more new players out on Friday, I don't think we would have seen the same reaction.

[Cisse]

I believe that the key players are just easier to throw under the bus when things don't go the way fans want to. It's just missplaced frustration which is often shown towards just the wrong person as in life itself.

Although thinking back at the Nigel years and the hatred he got I won't rule out the chance it has got something to do with it.

[RadioactiveWaste]

Thought this was a Pearson thread.....

[sage]

12 minutes ago, David said:

I think it's time he moved on, so you could say stale without doubting his ability.

He's played over 200 games at the club, that's a lot for a club with a highly ambitious fan base that wants promotion.

Now I'm not for a second placing any blame at all on Keogh for this, as Alpha quite rightly ranted the other day this is a team game.

Keogh has had the captains armband for a number of what are seen as "failed" seasons in some eyes, the spotlight will naturally fall on him more and any mistakes are are criticised more than others.

Remember when Pearce wasn't in the team? He got better by the week, once he started playing he got worse by the week.

Players have very short shelf life's now, I blame that FIFA Ultimate Team, trading footballers like cards after a game or two!

You have Rowett playing down the armband, current players and ex Professionals playing it down, yet fans were very vocal in their disappointment that Keogh retained the piece of elastic.

Going into a new season with this negativity over players isn't what we need, when Rowett spoke of freshening up the side, looking at those that have been at the club a little longer I think many saw that as a new Derby coming, yet the reality is most of what we saw at Sunderland we've seen for years now. 

Had we had more new players out on Friday, I don't think we would have seen the same reaction.

I really don't see a rational reason for wanting to sell Keogh. Obviously if we could sell him and get someone better for the same price then fine, but that would be tough.

This next paragraph  is not meant as a NC (or a GR) love in but...

Our problems aren't NC era signings or GR signings it is almost every outfield player signed inbetween those times. Yet these players seem to sneak under the sh1tstorm radar most of the time. 

[i-Ram]

I think the truth of the matter is that Bryson and Russell appear to have peaked, and have not been close to performing to a consistent 'Top 6' standard for a couple of years. They seem like top guys, and have worn the shirt with pride, but sentimentality doesn't get you promotion and it is understandable therefore that many might want upgrades. I fall into that camp.

Martin and Keogh both have personal characteristics which will divide opinion - it does seem you do either love them or you hate them.  They are however 'Top 6' standard, and there isnt really a case to look for upgrades, unless you are a) a "hater" or b) you want a completely different type of footballer (e.g. you want a strong pacy centre forward or a big bruiser of a defender). I don't think the criticism of these two has changed to any degree over the last 3-4 seasons.

[Rev]

33 minutes ago, sage said:

Over the last year and increasingly so over the last couple of weeks, there has been a sustained, over the top campaign to belittle some of Derby's longest serving players. Martin, Keogh, Bryson and Russell have been taking fearful stick from a very committed, relentless almost obsessed group of posters. 

Now everyone is entitled to an opinion and we all view games and players slightly differently but there seems to be a pattern that some players are getting more stick than teammates who have worse records for Derby. Keogh gets more stick than Pearce, Bryson gets more stick than Johnson, Martin gets more stick than Bent and Russell gets more stick than Weimann, Blackman, Anya and Camara put together. 

Is this a way of trying to denigrate the Clough signings (and we have recruited so well between NC and GR) or is it that people want rid of anyone associated with that fateful day at Wembley?

Maybe is the sentimentalist in me but I would love to see some of those tearful, defeated finalists get promoted with Derby and lay those ghosts to rest.

Maybe it is just the short attention span of the 21st century and some are bored of these players, I honestly don't know but I feel there is something because collectively the judgement goes beyond the rational. 

I just think it's boredom.

When players aren't shiny and new, it's easy to trot out the same old tired cliches, regardless of whats happening on the pitch. 

It's possibly the nature of a football forum too, once it approaches maturity it's all too easy to predict what posters wiĺl say, and why.

I find it's getting harder and harder to add anything constructive to a debate on the merits or not of players, at least if I don't want to repeat an oft made point.

[sage]

10 minutes ago, i-Ram said:

I think the truth of the matter is that Bryson and Russell appear to have peaked, and have not been close to performing to a consistent 'Top 6' standard for a couple of years. They seem like top guys, and have worn the shirt with pride, but sentimentality doesn't get you promotion and it is understandable therefore that many might want upgrades. I fall into that camp.

Martin and Keogh both have personal characteristics which will divide opinion - it does seem you do either love them or you hate them.  They are however 'Top 6' standard, and there isnt really a case to look for upgrades, unless you are a) a "hater" or b) you want a completely different type of footballer (e.g. you want a strong pacy centre forward or a big bruiser of a defender). I don't think the criticism of these two has changed to any degree over the last 3-4 seasons.

I get the argument that maybe they arent performing as well as 3 years ago but it doesn't fully explain the obsessions criticism in comparison to lesser players. 

[Day]

Just now, sage said:

I really don't see a rational reason for wanting to sell Keogh. Obviously if we could sell him and get someone better for the same price then fine, but that would be tough.

This next paragraph  is not meant as a NC (or a GR) love in but...

Our problems aren't NC era signings or GR signings it is almost every outfield player signed inbetween those times. Yet these players seem to sneak under the sh1tstorm radar most of the time. 

Replacing Keogh would be very tough, the only players I've seen mentioned by fans are Flint and Hanley, both of which the media planted the seed.

Did you listen to Sportscene last week? The caller on Keogh, went on a rant about him being captain, Steve Nicholson turned a question on him and asked if Keogh should be in the team, his response was no get him gone. I don't know who to replace him with as I only watch Derby, players that come to Pride Park and stand out I remember, players like Nugent. 

So basically no centre back has come to Pride Park and stood out then. What does that tell you?

It's obviously not the fans job to scout players for the club and I'm not saying there isn't better out there that would fit right in, but whoever comes in you're not going to see a massive difference in quality of centre back for this league, Keogh is a top half defender without a doubt and that's what we would be replacing him with. 

Saying that, sometimes a sideways step is needed, replacing like for like, maybe losing a little money on it just to freshen the team up, gives fans something new to get excited about seeing, giving the players a chance with no previous seasons memories like a slip at Wembley.

Had Matty James fell over like Butterfield there wouldn't have been a topic on him. 

You have to manage the fans as well as the team which can be even more difficult but just as important, a negative atmosphere around the club won't do anyone any favours. How many times do fans need telling booing only helps the opposition? 

Sad thing is I don't think it will be long before we hear the first this season, the Hughes and Ince sales have cut deep with quite a few.

[Gritstone Ram]

I feel Russell should shoot when he passes and shoots when he should pass. I do think Bryson is past his best. I think both could find other clubs if they were not needed. I think we need to find some good replacements for them because at the moment they still play an important role in the team. 

[i-Ram]

7 minutes ago, sage said:

I get the argument that maybe they arent performing as well as 3 years ago but it doesn't fully explain the obsessions criticism in comparison to lesser players. 

You are being too sensitive petal. You should see the stick some give Weimann.

[uttoxram75]

All four should be automatic starters currently. We've not signed anyone better in their respective positions in the last four years imo.

 

[Brammie Steve]

Hate campaign against Nigel?

Look, he melted away after 16 nightmare games in charge last season?

He's gone, Pearson is no more! 

Get over it!?

[Day]

27 minutes ago, reveldevil said:

It's possibly the nature of a football forum too, once it approaches maturity it's all too easy to predict what posters wiĺl say, and why.

I knew you'd say that ?

[Derby blood]

39 minutes ago, David said:

I think it's time he moved on, so you could say stale without doubting his ability.

He's played over 200 games at the club, that's a lot for a club with a highly ambitious fan base that wants promotion.

Now I'm not for a second placing any blame at all on Keogh for this, as Alpha quite rightly ranted the other day this is a team game.

Keogh has had the captains armband for a number of what are seen as "failed" seasons in some eyes, the spotlight will naturally fall on him more and any mistakes are are criticised more than others.

Remember when Pearce wasn't in the team? He got better by the week, once he started playing he got worse by the week.

Players have very short shelf life's now, I blame that FIFA Ultimate Team, trading footballers like cards after a game or two!

You have Rowett playing down the armband, current players and ex Professionals playing it down, yet fans were very vocal in their disappointment that Keogh retained the piece of elastic.

Going into a new season with this negativity over players isn't what we need, when Rowett spoke of freshening up the side, looking at those that have been at the club a little longer I think many saw that as a new Derby coming, yet the reality is most of what we saw at Sunderland we've seen for years now. 

Had we had more new players out on Friday, I don't think we would have seen the same reaction.

 

39 minutes ago, David said:

I think it's time he moved on, so you could say stale without doubting his ability.

He's played over 200 games at the club, that's a lot for a club with a highly ambitious fan base that wants promotion.

Now I'm not for a second placing any blame at all on Keogh for this, as Alpha quite rightly ranted the other day this is a team game.

Keogh has had the captains armband for a number of what are seen as "failed" seasons in some eyes, the spotlight will naturally fall on him more and any mistakes are are criticised more than others.

Remember when Pearce wasn't in the team? He got better by the week, once he started playing he got worse by the week.

Players have very short shelf life's now, I blame that FIFA Ultimate Team, trading footballers like cards after a game or two!

You have Rowett playing down the armband, current players and ex Professionals playing it down, yet fans were very vocal in their disappointment that Keogh retained the piece of elastic.

Going into a new season with this negativity over players isn't what we need, when Rowett spoke of freshening up the side, looking at those that have been at the club a little longer I think many saw that as a new Derby coming, yet the reality is most of what we saw at Sunderland we've seen for years now. 

Had we had more new players out on Friday, I don't think we would have seen the same reaction.

You say you do not doubt Keogh ability but you would move him on, why? Keogh has been player of the season twice, misses very few games, gives his all, been a bargain buy at 1.5 million pounds, but you would move our best centre half out the club, I go to every home game since Keogh has been here, and 7 to 8 away games each year, and believe me Keogh is so consistance, why would we get rid, I have seen all centre half make mistakes, Roy Mac, Super Mark Wright, Stimac, every player makes mistakes, so why you want rid of Keogh is beyond me, and your reason by the way makes no since at all, a forum does not reflect want the fans believe, players of the season does, enjoy your 1 game a season at Grimsby, you might even see Keogh not have a very good game, Lol.