Nottingham Forest v Derby County

[EnigmaRam]

The ref cost us a goal against the red dogs, of course he's wrong, it's the bloody red dogs

[Sith Happens]

39 minutes ago, Big Bad Bob said:

So if the keeper has the ball in both hands and then decides to smash the ball on to an opposing players head and in doing so knocks the ball out of his hands, it's a foul on the goalkeeper?

exactly what i thought. The law is for challenges on the keeper, not the other way round. If anything it was a foul on johnson.

[TuffLuff]

47 minutes ago, rynny said:

I think this is what it boils down to, I think for the duration of time he has the ball, he isn't juggling it and that he still has hold of it after the collision means that he is in full control.

Well to me that's down to interpretation as id also look at how far his hands are from the body, that would suggest to me he's not in control. Everything we are discussing about though, the ref has to make in seconds so while I think they got away with it I can see why they did. As I said earlier it's the dive leading up to the corner where I have more of an issue.

[rynny]

58 minutes ago, Big Bad Bob said:

So if the keeper has the ball in both hands and then decides to smash the ball on to an opposing players head and in doing so knocks the ball out of his hands, it's a foul on the goalkeeper?

 

18 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

exactly what i thought. The law is for challenges on the keeper, not the other way round. If anything it was a foul on johnson.

But that hasn't happened, the keeper is falling, he hasn't deliberately gone into Johnson. I would be more upset if he bumped into him and then dropped the ball, but as he comes down the ball is taken out of his hands by Johnson's body, he doesn't do anything wrong. It is harsh but they are the rules.

[Sith Happens]

3 minutes ago, rynny said:

 

But that hasn't happened, the keeper is falling, he hasn't deliberately gone into Johnson. I would be more upset if he bumped into him and then dropped the ball, but as he comes down the ball is taken out of his hands by Johnson's body, he doesn't do anything wrong. It is harsh but they are the rules.

We wont agree but i dont buy it. The rule is to protect the keeper from challenges made. The only challenge on the keeper was from his own player.

 

 

[GerryDaly]

On 19/03/2017 at 09:53, Tamworthram said:

Just the sort of mature and well thought out comment they'd be searching for. We'll done for upholding the reputation of Derby fans.

Giz a break ! 

 

 

it's bantz mate 

[Ramarena]

18 hours ago, VulcanRam said:

 

Ok, by all means just ignore the rules if it helps feed your sense of injustice. Whether the keeper collided with Johnson or the other way round, is a moot point. The goalkeeper still had the ball under control and knocked out of his hands by an opponent. 

Other than state what the law says and therefore why the referee, in abiding by those laws, disallowed the goal, there's nothing more to add.

 

What happens if the keeper runs into the post and drops the ball whilst having had both hands on the ball?

Is the post penalised?

[Mafiabob]

54 minutes ago, Paul71 said:

We wont agree but i dont buy it. The rule is there to protect the keeper from challenges made. The only challenge on the keeper was from his own player.

 

 

Where does it say that in the rules of the game?

I thought he got it wrong too.... but I'm not complaining. 

As @MuespachRam said..... officials get most right..... yet get scrutinised to hell for the one they get wrong..... sexy TV though..... and easy to blame a ref in a interview than a manager/player admitting a mistake that cost them a game.

Officials get scrutinised more than ever, it makes me chuckle when fans on social media etc saying refs have got worse..... they far from haven't..... the standard has been the same for 30 odd years..... it's the scrutiny and win at all costs mentality that's changed.

When I challenge most folk on social media as to what would you to help/change referees, must say "demote" them..... no one has a clue. 

Maybe I am bias to officials position..... but trust me, English referees are coveted all over the world. 

[Angry Ram]

Got to say the stewarding was a lot better on Saturday. Last season it was carnage but this year they employed some humans.. One geezer actually smiled, no teeth but it was a smile (I think).

Thought little Angry was going to get ejected at one point as we were right in the corner by the home fans in the Brian Clough.. Row B as well and easy access to the pitch. Plod were as good as gold as well.. 

[Ninos]

12 hours ago, Alpha said:

Feel the same way tbh.

I don't know why Mac in 2014/15 started obsessing with clean sheets and controlling games with possession 

In 13/14 and at our best in 14/15 we never sought to control possession. It was always coincidental that we had players like Hughes, Bryson, Thorne, Wisdom, Dawkins etc that would just always find a white shirt. All he had was a "6 pass rule" to get the ball under control and then it was about bursting forward, minimal touches, into Martin asap. 

Teams used to concede territory to us. They would park the bus at Pride Park far more regularly than they do now. We controlled games like this.

Then it became all about patience. Waiting for opportunities that will apparently inevitably come because we have such good forwards. Keeping clean sheets became a top priority. 

Clement came in and took this to new level. It became more about control than ever before. 

Always been a big Mac fan. I think he tinkers too much. I think he worries about clean sheets too much and he has become too patient. But for me he's done enough to deserve to build his own squad

However now Rowett is here I do hope we worry less about not losing. That we remember clean sheets and winning are different things. That we make the football fun.

He talked a good game after the Forest match. And the 2nd half was much more like a Mac 1 performance than anything Mac has produced for a while. 

We need to address our lack of ability in the air though. Barcelona may be able to play with midgets but Barcelona play with 70% of the ball and give very little away. We are always going to have to put the ball in the sky at some point. And in this league there will always be opponents who put the ball in the air. Accept the fact and make sure we have more than 3 players that can consistently compete. 

Good post Alpha.

keeping clean sheets is such a stupid ruse - defend like the fury and if we give up a goal or less it's good but shut up about it. Just win.

Possession means little if it has no objective

whenever I watch WBA (even against us that day - God that was a great day out) - they absolutely batter teams with their size and strength. Set pieces they're lethal and they clearly practice their methods like crazy. We need sone of that as outside of Hughes and Johnson we are a soft soft pretty boy team - typified by Butterfield who's gone in hard one time all season and got a straight red. Otherwise he's a total powder puff player. 

[DavesaRam]

10 hours ago, Angry Ram said:

How many away games have you done this season?

 

I have only done 4, including Norwich and Newcastle i.e. maximum miles for absolute crap. Howeverm, this has been limited by being made redundant twice in 6 months, along with Derby's surge in crapness - I simply couldn't afford to go and watch them, and for a while couldn't even think of trying to justifying spending money I didn't have to watch what they were dishing up. I normally do between 8 and 12 away games a season.

My comment about the Away Supporters Club was criticising that club you can join for a few quid whose name I'm still not sure of, without even having a season ticket, and which gets you priority access to tickets. The Red Dog match tickets got nowhere near as far as season ticket holders this year, so I, and my son and daughter, who are all South Stand nutters, didn't stand a chance of going to the match. Grrrr. So I had family duties to perform/fulfil in Linconshire, hence the reference to patchy Radio Derby coverage.

[Warren Hobhead]

34 minutes ago, Ninos said:

Good post Alpha.

keeping clean sheets is such a stupid ruse - defend like the fury and if we give up a goal or less it's good but shut up about it. Just win.

Possession means little if it has no objective

whenever I watch WBA (even against us that day - God that was a great day out) - they absolutely batter teams with their size and strength. Set pieces they're lethal and they clearly practice their methods like crazy. We need sone of that as outside of Hughes and Johnson we are a soft soft pretty boy team - typified by Butterfield who's gone in hard one time all season and got a straight red. Otherwise he's a total powder puff player. 

You nearly managed to go a full post there without mentioning JB...

 

 

[DavesaRam]

2 hours ago, Mafiabob said:

Where does it say that in the rules of the game?

I thought he got it wrong too.... but I'm not complaining. 

As @MuespachRam said..... officials get most right..... yet get scrutinised to hell for the one they get wrong..... sexy TV though..... and easy to blame a ref in a interview than a manager/player admitting a mistake that cost them a game.

Officials get scrutinised more than ever, it makes me chuckle when fans on social media etc saying refs have got worse..... they far from haven't..... the standard has been the same for 30 odd years..... it's the scrutiny and win at all costs mentality that's changed.

When I challenge most folk on social media as to what would you to help/change referees, must say "demote" them..... no one has a clue. 

Maybe I am bias to officials position..... but trust me, English referees are coveted all over the world. 

So were refs this bad 30 years ago? I started watching Derby in 1973 when I finally persuaded mum and dad that I was big enough to go, and no, the refs were way better then. They still cocked up. but it has become an art-form nowadays. It even seems like the refs have got their own championship running for who can turn in the crappest performance at a Derby County match.

[G STAR RAM]

10 hours ago, VulcanRam said:

With the greatest of respect, that's just a ridiculous assumption/allegation. Why would the referee "bottle" it? Again, if the keeper has the ball in his hands and an opposition player knocks it out of his hands, it's a foul. Johnson knocked the ball out of his hands. Doesn't matter whether it was intended or not.

So basically any time a keeper is under pressure all he needs to do is find an opposition player to bang into, drop the ball and take a free kick?

[NottsRam77]

36 minutes ago, Ninos said:

Good post Alpha.

keeping clean sheets is such a stupid ruse - defend like the fury and if we give up a goal or less it's good but shut up about it. Just win.

Possession means little if it has no objective

whenever I watch WBA (even against us that day - God that was a great day out) - they absolutely batter teams with their size and strength. Set pieces they're lethal and they clearly practice their methods like crazy. We need sone of that as outside of Hughes and Johnson we are a soft soft pretty boy team - typified by Butterfield who's gone in hard one time all season and got a straight red. Otherwise he's a total powder puff player. 

It is a good post.

if im being brutally honest i didnt want mac first or second time round but am certainly big enough to say that first time, the football we played was better than anything iv seen since jim smiths time and was probably as good at times

alpha totally nailed it with his description of the mac 1 and mac 2 styles of play

my reason for not wanting him was that i watched his forest side against notts county in the league cup (with the county fans, went nuts when they took the lead)

forest were exactly as alpha described as a mac 2 derby.

passing sideways, backwards, loads of pointless passing, with no penetration or idea how to break down a side and would look fragile when teams ran at them or took the game to them.

many of my forest mates (STH) told me all this on a weekly basis and then i saw it first hand

from the point of view of fairness and stability it was wrong to get rid and we need stability more than ever before but am i happy and looking forward to having a proper manager on board now, dam straight i am

rowett looks like he will have us pressing high up the pitch, on the front foot and in the oppositions faces, whats not to like 

[Sith Happens]

3 hours ago, Mafiabob said:

Where does it say that in the rules of the game?

I thought he got it wrong too.... but I'm not complaining. 

As @MuespachRam said..... officials get most right..... yet get scrutinised to hell for the one they get wrong..... sexy TV though..... and easy to blame a ref in a interview than a manager/player admitting a mistake that cost them a game.

Officials get scrutinised more than ever, it makes me chuckle when fans on social media etc saying refs have got worse..... they far from haven't..... the standard has been the same for 30 odd years..... it's the scrutiny and win at all costs mentality that's changed.

When I challenge most folk on social media as to what would you to help/change referees, must say "demote" them..... no one has a clue. 

Maybe I am bias to officials position..... but trust me, English referees are coveted all over the world. 

I am referring to the law stated by another poster in this thread that says:

'A goalkeeper cannot be challenged by an opponent when in control of the ball with the hands.'

That is surely designed to protect the keeper from being challenged and the ball taken off them when its under control, i cannot believe for a minute that the rule is intended to apply when a keeper falls on top of a player of the opposing side who is doing nothing wrong...its simply not a challenge.

I agree they are open to scrutiny and its worse now there is so much coverage from all angles.

I dont think they should be exempt from criticism if they make a mistake however, everyone else gets criticised if they do, blimey richard keogh gets it even if hes not responsible.

I also dont think a ref should be demoted, unless they make mistake after mistake after mistake. I am sure Stuart Atwell had some sort of demotion earlier in his career, in fairness i think he has done ok in recent times when i have seen him.

Surely a ref making a mistake should be dealt with like anyone who makes a mistake at work, they are asked for the reasons they made x decision, coached on how they can improve going forward.

 

 

 

[Sith Happens]

20 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

So were refs this bad 30 years ago? I started watching Derby in 1973 when I finally persuaded mum and dad that I was big enough to go, and no, the refs were way better then. They still cocked up. but it has become an art-form nowadays. It even seems like the refs have got their own championship running for who can turn in the crappest performance at a Derby County match.

I think its difficult to judge. Take this incident for example, the referee was clearly wrong in his decision. But we have the luxury of replays from different angles. 30 years ago the game might not even have had been recorded, of if it did we might only get a minute or two highlights and no internet to search for replays etc.

 

[Gritstone Ram]

27 minutes ago, DavesaRam said:

I have only done 4, including Norwich and Newcastle i.e. maximum miles for absolute crap. Howeverm, this has been limited by being made redundant twice in 6 months, along with Derby's surge in crapness - I simply couldn't afford to go and watch them, and for a while couldn't even think of trying to justifying spending money I didn't have to watch what they were dishing up. I normally do between 8 and 12 away games a season.

My comment about the Away Supporters Club was criticising that club you can join for a few quid whose name I'm still not sure of, without even having a season ticket, and which gets you priority access to tickets. The Red Dog match tickets got nowhere near as far as season ticket holders this year, so I, and my son and daughter, who are all South Stand nutters, didn't stand a chance of going to the match. Grrrr. So I had family duties to perform/fulfil in Linconshire, hence the reference to patchy Radio Derby coverage.

Away members. That's what they are called. 

[BondJovi]

13 hours ago, Alpha said:

Feel the same way tbh.

I don't know why Mac in 2014/15 started obsessing with clean sheets and controlling games with possession 

In 13/14 and at our best in 14/15 we never sought to control possession. It was always coincidental that we had players like Hughes, Bryson, Thorne, Wisdom, Dawkins etc that would just always find a white shirt. All he had was a "6 pass rule" to get the ball under control and then it was about bursting forward, minimal touches, into Martin asap. 

Teams used to concede territory to us. They would park the bus at Pride Park far more regularly than they do now. We controlled games like this.

Then it became all about patience. Waiting for opportunities that will apparently inevitably come because we have such good forwards. Keeping clean sheets became a top priority. 

Clement came in and took this to new level. It became more about control than ever before. 

Always been a big Mac fan. I think he tinkers too much. I think he worries about clean sheets too much and he has become too patient. But for me he's done enough to deserve to build his own squad

However now Rowett is here I do hope we worry less about not losing. That we remember clean sheets and winning are different things. That we make the football fun.

He talked a good game after the Forest match. And the 2nd half was much more like a Mac 1 performance than anything Mac has produced for a while. 

We need to address our lack of ability in the air though. Barcelona may be able to play with midgets but Barcelona play with 70% of the ball and give very little away. We are always going to have to put the ball in the sky at some point. And in this league there will always be opponents who put the ball in the air. Accept the fact and make sure we have more than 3 players that can consistently compete. 

This possession football just allows the opposition to get into shape and stay there, especially as our players seem reluctant to take a chance on and off the ball. Getting the ball forward quickly to your attacking players gives them the chance to attack a defence on the backfoot. How many times recently have our players been able to run at a defence that isn't camped on the edge of the box? I understand drawing the opposition out but that is no good if you have no movement and pass so slowly.

I have enjoyed listening to Rowett, he seems to be in tune with what is needed and I expect us to be much more aggressive and positive when we have the ball. Hearing what Nugent said made me think the players will enjoy it more too!

[Angry Ram]

1 hour ago, DavesaRam said:

I have only done 4, including Norwich and Newcastle i.e. maximum miles for absolute crap. Howeverm, this has been limited by being made redundant twice in 6 months, along with Derby's surge in crapness - I simply couldn't afford to go and watch them, and for a while couldn't even think of trying to justifying spending money I didn't have to watch what they were dishing up. I normally do between 8 and 12 away games a season.

My comment about the Away Supporters Club was criticising that club you can join for a few quid whose name I'm still not sure of, without even having a season ticket, and which gets you priority access to tickets. The Red Dog match tickets got nowhere near as far as season ticket holders this year, so I, and my son and daughter, who are all South Stand nutters, didn't stand a chance of going to the match. Grrrr. So I had family duties to perform/fulfil in Linconshire, hence the reference to patchy Radio Derby coverage.

I don't have a season ticket... It's more than a few quid for the home and away memberships.. Your 4, for whatever reason, would have not got you a ticket.

Plenty of home season ticket holders who never leave Derby.. Nowt special.

I do agree that those who travel to the most away games should get priority..