Big Overhaul - New Squad - Who?

[RadioactiveWaste]

Just beware of the "grass is always greener" effect - looking great in our rival's teams whilst we watch with frustration the well known faults of our players doesn't mean we wouldn't find the faults and frustrations once they become our player.

As an example, I always really rated Anya before he came here, now he's ours, I still like him and rate him, but is he decisively better than the Weimann/Russell/Camara trio (Ince is a bit special, especially under Mac)? Before I only saw the dangerous good bits of his play, now we can all see frustrating crosses, wrong options, lack of shooting etc as well as his good games.

[Papahet]

44 minutes ago, rynny said:

So it is all Keogh's fault? Was it Keogh's fault that Olsson played the striker on that Pearce needlessly fouled against Cardiff? Was it Keogh's fault that Noone curled a one into the top corner? Was it Keogh's fault that De Sart, Olsson and Pearce all got beat in the air by the same person (I mean why the hell are 3 defenders challenging 1 player in the air and still losing out?) then Bent having an air shot to clear the ball, and Baird getting in Carson's way and popping the ball up nicely to Harris to smash in? Was it Keogh's fault that that Harris' shot took a deflection off Baird/Pearce and Carson misjudged the flight of the ball?

Which of the goals were Keogh's fault  against Bristol? Which were Keogh's fault against Leicester?

Who was in the team when the club's consecutive clean sheets was matched? Who was in the team when the consecutive clean sheets at home record was broken?

If you are going to blame him for the goals in the last few matches he deserves just as much praise, if not more for the clean sheet records that he has been a major, and only, player involved in both.

Listen, like you say. You have listed several games without Keogh in the side and lost correct? so what's wrong with the same theory of me listing games he's started and also lost? Or doesn't that count.

You defend has a team buddy, the team isn't good enough to go on a consistent run of games - Especially at this stage of the season. When we have the chance to either form a gap or get into the top two/six guess what? We falter every single time. The mentally isn't right within the team and hasn't been for some time.

MK Dons, Cardiff, Rotherham, QPR, Brum, Bristol, Norwich, Leeds, Boro, Forest, Hull first leg. We just didn't turn up.

Would I get rid of Keogh? Yes, likewise Bryson, Russell, Blackman, Roos, Vydra and about seven or eight more. We are not anywhere near good enough to get out this league with them, wakeup. It's not the 2013/14 season anymore.

And re Flint as my suggested "He's having a poor season". Wasn't Keogh also signed from a relegated Coventry City?

 

 

[superzak]

Keogh is a decent defender in the championship but not that much better than shacks and Pearce that he should start every game. The season has gone and we are not going to get relegated so why not experiment a bit. Give shacks the arm band and give Keogh a rest for a few weeks. We have the perfect opportunity for mac to formulate in his mind who he wants where for next season and then start afresh next season.

[rynny]

55 minutes ago, Papahet said:

Listen, like you say. You have listed several games without Keogh in the side and lost correct? so what's wrong with the same theory of me listing games he's started and also lost? Or doesn't that count.

You defend has a team buddy, the team isn't good enough to go on a consistent run of games - Especially at this stage of the season. When we have the chance to either form a gap or get into the top two/six guess what? We falter every single time. The mentally isn't right within the team and hasn't been for some time.

MK Dons, Cardiff, Rotherham, QPR, Brum, Bristol, Norwich, Leeds, Boro, Forest, Hull first leg. We just didn't turn up.

Would I get rid of Keogh? Yes, likewise Bryson, Russell, Blackman, Roos, Vydra and about seven or eight more. We are not anywhere near good enough to get out this league with them, wakeup. It's not the 2013/14 season anymore.

And re Flint as my suggested "He's having a poor season". Wasn't Keogh also signed from a relegated Coventry City?

 

 

Hang on you asked me when have we struggled without Keogh in the team, I gave you a list of ALL the games he has missed since 13/14, no cherry picking an odd game here or there, I gave you a list with no bias. The team has won 2 of 7 league games without Keogh whilst we have been looking at promotion. Not sure what theory you have me down for but hey ho.

Yes you defend as a team, it is a team game, but how can you say the team isn't good enough to go on a consistant run of games? How many did we just win in a row? Our starting 11 is pretty good but the squad isn't good enough for a sustained tilt at promotion, and because of this we need to start, as I said before, with our weakest/poorest players.

Not sure what relevance 13/14 has to the discussion. To progress you need to keep your best players and move on thebplayers that aren't good enough. We have tried but failed. Not Keogh's fault, not Thorne or Hughes or Martin. It is down to the previous management and recruitment.

When Coventry got relegated (also with Christie in the team) they had conceded similar to us in 12th, and Watford 11th and better than most in the bottom half. It is also about how a player fits in the team, and what skills are needed and if they have them. We need a cb that is decent at passing, Flint isn't that player. He would be the one to replace Pearce/Shackell, as what you have described is what they are supposed to be in the team for.

[Papahet]

5 minutes ago, rynny said:

Hang on you asked me when have we struggled without Keogh in the team, I gave you a list of ALL the games he has missed since 13/14, no cherry picking an odd game here or there, I gave you a list with no bias. The team has won 2 of 7 league games without Keogh whilst we have been looking at promotion. Not sure what theory you have me down for but hey ho.

Yes you defend as a team, it is a team game, but how can you say the team isn't good enough to go on a consistant run of games? How many did we just win in a row? Our starting 11 is pretty good but the squad isn't good enough for a sustained tilt at promotion, and because of this we need to start, as I said before, with our weakest/poorest players.

Not sure what relevance 13/14 has to the discussion. To progress you need to keep your best players and move on thebplayers that aren't good enough. We have tried but failed. Not Keogh's fault, not Thorne or Hughes or Martin. It is down to the previous management and recruitment.

When Coventry got relegated (also with Christie in the team) they had conceded similar to us in 12th, and Watford 11th and better than most in the bottom half. It is also about how a player fits in the team, and what skills are needed and if they have them. We need a cb that is decent at passing, Flint isn't that player. He would be the one to replace Pearce/Shackell, as what you have described is what they are supposed to be in the team for.

Gathered you are a Keogh fan, don't need his life story fella.

If he was that much cop then why didn't Newcastle sign him in the summer? Why haven't Burnley come in with a bid? 

Opinions eh?

[RadioactiveWaste]

2 minutes ago, Papahet said:

Gathered you are a Keogh fan, don't need his life story fella.

If he was that much cop then why didn't Newcastle sign him in the summer? Why haven't Burnley come in with a bid? 

Opinions eh?

I think that since Burnley showed an interest a few years ago it's been clear we wouldn't sell him unless for way more than he's worth.

If its known in the game that we're not going to sell players easily it'll naturally mean fewer bids.

Keogh at £1.5m you might get quite a few bids. Keogh at £3m plus not even worth putting the feelers out. (Figures plucked from thin air)

 

[rynny]

27 minutes ago, Papahet said:

Gathered you are a Keogh fan, don't need his life story fella.

If he was that much cop then why didn't Newcastle sign him in the summer? Why haven't Burnley come in with a bid? 

Opinions eh?

So you ask questions I answer and you don't like the answers and tell me you don't want his life story?

Again, I just think we should be strengthening other areas before we look at replacing Keogh.

As @RadioactiveWaste said, Burnley wanted him last time they got promoted, Newcastle wanted him this summer, maybe his value to us is more than the value to them? Maybe he didn't want to join them? Who knows?

[Sparkle]

1 hour ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Just beware of the "grass is always greener" effect - looking great in our rival's teams whilst we watch with frustration the well known faults of our players doesn't mean we wouldn't find the faults and frustrations once they become our player.

As an example, I always really rated Anya before he came here, now he's ours, I still like him and rate him, but is he decisively better than the Weimann/Russell/Camara trio (Ince is a bit special, especially under Mac)? Before I only saw the dangerous good bits of his play, now we can all see frustrating crosses, wrong options, lack of shooting etc as well as his good games.

Oh yes, and the new grass in anya is older and more expensive at £4 million especially when his best position is on the bench in all reality 

[RadioactiveWaste]

21 minutes ago, Sparkle said:

Oh yes, and the new grass in anya is older and more expensive at £4 million especially when his best position is on the bench in all reality 

Even as a fan of his, £4m was well over the top.

Of the options, who do you put in then, if Anya is bench only? Raaza? JR? Weimann went to wolves?

[kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong]

On 18/02/2017 at 12:38, Millenniumram said:

This will see us up imo

Carson

Wisdom Keogh Shackell Lowe

Thorne Hughes

Ince Cairney Ibe

Martin

Happy with that apart from bryson is missing!

[Millenniumram]

15 minutes ago, kash_a_ram_a_ding_dong said:

Happy with that apart from bryson is missing!

Bryson ain't good enough anymore imo, too prone to niggling injuries and then obviously taking a while to get back to speed. Don't think we can rely on him anymore in what would be a key position ( I assume you mean instead of cairney? ) , which is a shame as I think he deserved a promotion after his performances in 13/14. That being said, I'd keep him as a squad player as he's the right mould for the role, and at his age we wouldn't get enough for him to warrant selling him. Definately an... optimistic lineup, but if we formed a team like that I'd be delighted!

[Sexydadbod]

Nice team but I read that Fulham want 15-20 million for Cairney

[Papahet]

Bryson, Keogh and Russell 

People will be sticking them in team selections in twenty years from now i'm certain of it. Then they'll wonder why we are still a Championship club. A side full of bang average players who can't maintain consistency is ya' answer my friends.

Fans are renown for overrating their own players, but bleedin hell; Keogh, Bryson, Russell, Martin, Thorne? Latter is a total complete crock, the others are on form till January and when the going gets tough they struggle.

People forget the Hull play off game too easily, the collapse at Rotherham. No mental fight in them to get out this division.

My opinion ofcourse, but we won't go up with this crop of players.

[SIWY]

4 minutes ago, Papahet said:

Bryson, Keogh and Russell 

People will be sticking them in their little team selections in twenty years from now i'm certain of it.

I'd keep all of them players to be honest. Bryson and Russell would make good squad players and I think we'd be daft to get rid of Keogh seeing as he's our captain.

[jagerbob]

3 hours ago, ostrichram said:

Keogh is a decent defender in the championship but not that much better than shacks and Pearce that he should start every game. The season has gone and we are not going to get relegated so why not experiment a bit. Give shacks the arm band and give Keogh a rest for a few weeks. We have the perfect opportunity for mac to formulate in his mind who he wants where for next season and then start afresh next season.

With all due respect, its obvious that Stevie Mac likes Keogh.

So unless a new manager comes in and likes the two of Pearce and Shackell ahead of keogh, then it aint gonna happen. We have had a number of managers now who have seen fit to play Keogh consistantly.

Also no matter who has been in charge in recent years, we have always tried to play through midfield to an extent, so a CB who can carry out of defence and pass forward just a little bit is probably a bonus. Both pearce and shackell are the sort to launch it forward in a more direct 4-4-2 system. Would probably suit being at Burnley or Ipswich.

 

In regard to your last sentence, that is exactly what Mac will be doing, he will access as the weeks go by and our play off chances go to pot, he will have a full pre season, and he will have a transfer window whicb by all accounts is when Derby tend to shape their squad for the next season.

Not much point complaining about Mac now, I said it last october and i'll say it now, its a free season to settle in for Mac provided we didnt stay in the relegation places which we were in, or close to, when he arrived.

[Papahet]

5 minutes ago, SIWY said:

I'd keep all of them players to be honest. Bryson and Russell would make good squad players and I think we'd be daft to get rid of Keogh seeing as he's our captain.

Why would it be daft?

What difference does it make if he's our captain or not? Burnley cashed in on "captain Shackell" and yet still managed promotion...

[SIWY]

1 minute ago, Papahet said:

Why would it be daft?

What difference does it make if he's our captain or not? Burnley cashed in on "captain Shackell" and yet still managed promotion...

He has been captain for Derby under several different managers, and even captained his country. He's clearly been rated by a number of different managers, therefore why would we get rid of him? 

[Papahet]

He's been captained by several different managers, agreed. But that's also several different managers who got the boot for performance based reasons, is it not?

He probably is rated by a few managers, but at the end of the day;

1) We are a Championship club since he signed for us

2) We are still sloppy has hell at the back with him in the side

3) No club has taken a pun and signed him; Instead the likes of Newcastle went for Grant Hanley and Keogh's Irish mate Clark.

4) He is far too often a nervous wreck

5) Re-watch the Hull 1st leg and Rotherham from last season - you'll see the lack of communication and leadership out there. Don't let a few win's sugarcoat how fragile we are defensively. Keogh plays a responsibility in this.

6) These several managers also rated Ryan Shotton, Lee Naylor, Zak Whitbread and Raul Albentosa at some stage. 

 

 

[Sparkle]

2 hours ago, RadioactiveWaste said:

Even as a fan of his, £4m was well over the top.

Of the options, who do you put in then, if Anya is bench only? Raaza? JR? Weimann went to wolves?

Ideal world sort of stuff, a confident Russell with an effective midfield 

[SIWY]

10 minutes ago, Papahet said:

He's been captained by several different managers, agreed. But that's also several different managers who got the boot for performance based reasons, is it not?

He probably is rated by a few managers, but at the end of the day;

1) We are a Championship club since he signed for us

2) We are still sloppy has hell at the back with him in the side

3) No club has taken a pun and signed him; Instead the likes of Newcastle went for Grant Hanley and Keogh's Irish mate Clark.

4) He is far too often a nervous wreck

5) Re-watch the Hull 1st leg and Rotherham from last season - you'll see the lack of communication and leadership out there. Don't let a few win's sugarcoat how fragile we are defensively. Keogh plays a responsibility in this.

6) These several managers also rated Ryan Shotton, Lee Naylor, Zak Whitbread and Raul Albentosa at some stage. 

 

 

Keogh's been one of our most consistent performers ever since we signed him, and has actually improved year on year in my opinion. For all we know another club may have been in for him but we just don't want to sell him. In fact, I'm pretty sure Brighton were in for him at the start of last season and, as others have said, Burnley wanted him when they first got promoted. 

If looking to replace Keogh then we'd have to be signing someone better than Keogh, and I honestly don't think we'd find a better defender than Keogh in our price range who is as suited to our system as he is.