RoyMac5 Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 5 minutes ago, toddy said: Some think all the issues we had this season will disappear once Martin returns, eh hello ....they will continue unless there are changes else where...we also don't have the manager that plays only 4-3-3. What do Fulham play then, the bits I've seen don't seem very 4-3-3 however its set up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 Jesus Christ is this still going on?! Martin will be back at the end of the season, and we'll see where he fits in the system then, we don't even know how we're playing yet! We've got plenty of options up front, so let's just wait and see what happens hey? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 50 minutes ago, McLovin said: I'm not Martin's biggest fan but the way he played under McClaren and in the system meant that he never really needed to be quick as he dropped deeper a lot as a false 9/number 10 with Ward and Russell doing the running for him. Where Clement and Pearson went wrong with Martin was that both tried to play him as an out an out 9 number nine which he isn't in my opinion. He likes to get involved with the play and play 1-2s but play him as a straight number 9 then he struggles, which is what you see for Scotland because he gets man marked by the centre backs. Bent and Martin are pretty much the opposite. Martin likes to get involved with the play and drop deeper unlike Bent who likes of play on the shoulder and is more of a fox in the box. I never really understood the comparison that Owen Bradley made regarding Martin and Diego Costa when they're completely different players. Martin's more of an Ibrahimovic type player(obviously no where near as good). Can you not put zlatan or Diego Costa in the same paragraph with Martin? Jeez. I called Owen Bradley out on his article back in the day, and I've heard it all now ... martin never has been and never will be a premier league player. And he's not a physical presence. Never tackles or aggravates the other teams defenders, he just flops and refs had even sussed that now and so we were just losing the ball when he fell over. The fact that he's managed to make a living playing in this league is a modern day miracle in of itself. If he comes back and plays regularly for us, Rowett will get the axe soon after because we will fail again. GR is too smart to try and be Mcclaren. Even his supporters (on here cuz you rarely meet martin lovers in real life) admit he can only play one way in one system where a team is built around him - think about how ridiculous that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 14 minutes ago, RoyMac5 said: What do Fulham play then, the bits I've seen don't seem very 4-3-3 however its set up. They play either 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3. Martin has played in their 4-2-3-1 which goes against the myth he's a one system man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 23 minutes ago, toddy said: Some think all the issues we had this season will disappear once Martin returns, eh hello ....they will continue unless there are changes else where. Martin was a good goal scorer / team player in a team that came together well at the time, some of those players have moved on, some still here, but all older and not necessary better, we also don't have the manager that plays only 4-3-3. GR has said he will change the system to suit the opponents so for me that has to be a positive, will he bring in players that are capable of playing in different systems? You bet he will. Will he off load those that will not change or incapable of changing? You bet he will. As for Martin being part of the future playing style, time will tell. Time for everybody to move on, Mel must have agreed to the changes that GR wants to do and I look forward to a few fresh faces willing to wear the shirt with pride next season. COYR! You're softening ! lol The bubbleman is coming and you're softening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rynny Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 58 minutes ago, ramjit said: 70 odd pages of almost the same arguements,Martin this Martin that..ffs it's irrelevant until he comes back,then don't you think it's when to discuss.. Could you provide a list of subjects we are allowed to discuss then please? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RodleyRam Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 3 hours ago, Ninos said: Stats or no stats, playing 4-3-3 with martin up front - i.e. Rowett trying to replicate Mcclaren - won't be happening folks, sorry to inform you. If we want to go forward and start rolling over sides consistently we have to play the kind of football you saw from Nugent Vydra Ince Bryson Russell and co in that second half - high intensity attacking, pressing, incisive with everyone working their nuts off for the cause. But all to a plan that will change based on the opponent and/or our game objective. Finally! I believe that we have a shot under GR who has gone on record as saying we will vary our tactics, that he won't accept lack of fight, and that teams will get to the point where they will feel like they won a championship just by taking a point off us. How can anyone see either Bent or Martin as part of that? Neither player are hard working and productive enough to be in the Rowett mould. So Martin operating in a side playing a quicker tempo with dynamic runners off him wouldn't work? He would thrive in that kind of scenario, it's why he didn't look as good under Clement. Martin isn't lazy, it's a misconception. He just isn't going to chase down lost causes or run channels. Nor does he cope well if the ball is banged 6ft above his head. When motivated properly he'll close people down and make a right pain of himself to defenders. The evidence is there. Time will tell whether Rowett sees him in his plans I guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 3 hours ago, RodleyRam said: So Martin operating in a side playing a quicker tempo with dynamic runners off him wouldn't work? He would thrive in that kind of scenario, it's why he didn't look as good under Clement. Martin isn't lazy, it's a misconception. He just isn't going to chase down lost causes or run channels. Nor does he cope well if the ball is banged 6ft above his head. When motivated properly he'll close people down and make a right pain of himself to defenders. The evidence is there. Time will tell whether Rowett sees him in his plans I guess. Well I see that from him maybe once in 10 games; that he's actually working. Plus you're again doing the Mcclaren thing: building a side around Martin. Flawed concept! Even if I grant you your premise of his playing style being such a positive impact, then when he gets hurt then what? The Mcclaren era is over thank god. You say he isn't going to chase down balls. Yet I've seen him do this and I've even seen him score doing it (v Ipswich away) but fact is he chooses not to. Chooses! Motivated properly I agree but no one has managed it so far. I watched a U23 game a year or do ago - zanzala was playing next to Kwame. A ball was played through to OZ and it was a wayward pass, closer to the defender, but Zanzala chased it down and just bullied the defender off the ball creating a scoring chance. Remember thinking wow, if that was Martin up there he would have just let the defender have it. Those are fine margins. A forward not working hard, chasing down balls, pressing defenders, is a player that needs to find a different team. Even the very best strikers apply pressure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted March 25, 2017 Share Posted March 25, 2017 9 hours ago, McLovin said: Tammy Abraham? Martin probably better for a McClaren team but any other system and I'd doubt we would see the best of him like under Clement. Abraham can do a bit of everything, good with his body back from goal and can run in behind. Dom Solanke would be another suggestion and he was regarded higher than Abraham at Chelsea but he wants stupid wages I'll take Abraham but even so… would he have been a practical long term replacement for Martin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ramjit Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 16 hours ago, rynny said: Could you provide a list of subjects we are allowed to discuss then please? Anything that doesn't involve a Fulham player??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 19 hours ago, RodleyRam said: So Martin operating in a side playing a quicker tempo with dynamic runners off him wouldn't work? He would thrive in that kind of scenario, it's why he didn't look as good under Clement. Martin isn't lazy, it's a misconception. He just isn't going to chase down lost causes or run channels. Nor does he cope well if the ball is banged 6ft above his head. When motivated properly he'll close people down and make a right pain of himself to defenders. The evidence is there. Time will tell whether Rowett sees him in his plans I guess. Good luck arguing with Martin's bitter ginger step brother Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leicester Ram Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 What really irritates me is that Pearson was so set on playing 4-4-2 but insisted that Martin was of no use to him, when I reckon Martin and Vydra would be brilliant together. From what we've seen from Vydra at CAM, he does have a bit of magic about him and his interplay is good for a striker, which would suit Martin down to the ground. I'd be really excited about the idea of a 4-2-3-1 with Vydra playing just off Martin. Would give us the numbers in midfield we need while allowing us to have more than one person in the box when a cross comes in. We're very guilty of not having numbers in the box and since Clement's days, we're even more guilty of not having someone close to Martin for him to play off. We know Martin's at his best when he's got someone running beyond him, so give him that in abundance, make that someone's specific job. The way our classic 4-3-3 works is that the more advanced CM's would make runs beyond Martin when they could, but also have to manage some defensive responsibility and play a role in us keeping possession deep in the pitch. If you take away the sharing of those responsibilities and assign one of those CM's entirely to possession and defending without running beyond the ST, you allow the spare CM to become a CAM. That means they can focus entirely on running beyond the ST and keeping possession. That should give the ST, in this case Martin, a partner to consistently play with. I remember Pearson saying that 'historically teams with two strikers do better than teams with one', which I agree with to an extent. A lot of teams who've gone up, particularly out of this league, have two ST's or at least two players who've scored plenty between them. Burnley have had Vokes and Ings as well as Vokes and Gray. Leicester had Nugent and Vardy. Bournemouth had Wilson and Kermogant. Watford had Ighalo, Deeney AND Vydra, they weren't that great at the back but they could definitely score. Derby in 13/14 had Martin and Bryson, recently at our best we had Ince and Bent scoring regularly. It's fairly simple, if you've got an effective team and a well organised system, you'll find you've got two players scoring regularly. But the way we set up under Pearson, really we only had one person who was going to score regularly; Vydra. James Wilson was hardly prolific, Ince was out the team, Bryson was stuck with defensive responsibility and none of the wingers outside Ince are really goal-scorers. But the way we've set up in a 4-3-3 at its worst, no ones really been that prolific. Last season Martin and Ince had decent goal tallies, but usually the big two goal scorers have to get between 35-40 goals between them, Martin and Ince probably had less than 30 combined? Off the top of my head Ince had 12 and Martin 14. So we've had bad times with 4-3-3 and 4-4-2. What 4-2-3-1 offers is the best of both systems. The midfield control of a 4-3-3 but with the two strikers of a 4-4-2. A partnership between Vydra and Martin could be really successful, particularly if you still have Ince with a defensive RB behind him doing the dirty work and giving him his own space down the wing. That's a lot of goals. So, there's not really much of a specific 'Martin's the best, Vydra's the worst, I hate Toddy' point behind all of this. It's more that I think Martin and Vydra are both good, I don't think we should have to pick one or the other. It seems to have been drilled into our brains that it's one or the other, or we play the much maligned 4-4-2, when really I think there's a way we can have our cake and eat it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ninos Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 It's pretty sad that the martin admirers have to find other players to make Martin work properly. First it was Bryson, now it's Vydra? Says it all really. It's over for Martin - he's the consummate bad attitude SOFT teddy bear player who rarely puts a shift in. It's toast for him at Derby if GR actually implements anything close to what he appears to believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Millenniumram Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 29 minutes ago, Leicester Ram said: What really irritates me is that Pearson was so set on playing 4-4-2 but insisted that Martin was of no use to him, when I reckon Martin and Vydra would be brilliant together. From what we've seen from Vydra at CAM, he does have a bit of magic about him and his interplay is good for a striker, which would suit Martin down to the ground. I'd be really excited about the idea of a 4-2-3-1 with Vydra playing just off Martin. Would give us the numbers in midfield we need while allowing us to have more than one person in the box when a cross comes in. We're very guilty of not having numbers in the box and since Clement's days, we're even more guilty of not having someone close to Martin for him to play off. We know Martin's at his best when he's got someone running beyond him, so give him that in abundance, make that someone's specific job. The way our classic 4-3-3 works is that the more advanced CM's would make runs beyond Martin when they could, but also have to manage some defensive responsibility and play a role in us keeping possession deep in the pitch. If you take away the sharing of those responsibilities and assign one of those CM's entirely to possession and defending without running beyond the ST, you allow the spare CM to become a CAM. That means they can focus entirely on running beyond the ST and keeping possession. That should give the ST, in this case Martin, a partner to consistently play with. I remember Pearson saying that 'historically teams with two strikers do better than teams with one', which I agree with to an extent. A lot of teams who've gone up, particularly out of this league, have two ST's or at least two players who've scored plenty between them. Burnley have had Vokes and Ings as well as Vokes and Gray. Leicester had Nugent and Vardy. Bournemouth had Wilson and Kermogant. Watford had Ighalo, Deeney AND Vydra, they weren't that great at the back but they could definitely score. Derby in 13/14 had Martin and Bryson, recently at our best we had Ince and Bent scoring regularly. It's fairly simple, if you've got an effective team and a well organised system, you'll find you've got two players scoring regularly. But the way we set up under Pearson, really we only had one person who was going to score regularly; Vydra. James Wilson was hardly prolific, Ince was out the team, Bryson was stuck with defensive responsibility and none of the wingers outside Ince are really goal-scorers. But the way we've set up in a 4-3-3 at its worst, no ones really been that prolific. Last season Martin and Ince had decent goal tallies, but usually the big two goal scorers have to get between 35-40 goals between them, Martin and Ince probably had less than 30 combined? Off the top of my head Ince had 12 and Martin 14. So we've had bad times with 4-3-3 and 4-4-2. What 4-2-3-1 offers is the best of both systems. The midfield control of a 4-3-3 but with the two strikers of a 4-4-2. A partnership between Vydra and Martin could be really successful, particularly if you still have Ince with a defensive RB behind him doing the dirty work and giving him his own space down the wing. That's a lot of goals. So, there's not really much of a specific 'Martin's the best, Vydra's the worst, I hate Toddy' point behind all of this. It's more that I think Martin and Vydra are both good, I don't think we should have to pick one or the other. It seems to have been drilled into our brains that it's one or the other, or we play the much maligned 4-4-2, when really I think there's a way we can have our cake and eat it. This 100%! Literally summed up everything I have to say about the topic but can't be arsed to write up Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Day Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 4 minutes ago, Ninos said: It's pretty sad that the martin admirers have to find other players to make Martin work properly. You realise football is a team game right? Whilst building the team you need create mini partnerships all over the pitch between players that work well together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alph Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 51 minutes ago, David said: You realise football is a team game right? Whilst building the team you need create mini partnerships all over the pitch between players that work well together. Dumb idea. It's the team with the fastest players that win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 Carson New RB Keogh New CB Forsyth Thorne Hughes Ince Vydra New LW Martin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cannable Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 1 hour ago, Ninos said: It's pretty sad that the martin admirers have to find other players to make Martin work properly. First it was Bryson, now it's Vydra? Says it all really. It's over for Martin - he's the consummate bad attitude SOFT teddy bear player who rarely puts a shift in. It's toast for him at Derby if GR actually implements anything close to what he appears to believe. That Pirlo's ****, needs other players to do his running for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadioactiveWaste Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 17 minutes ago, Alpha said: Dumb idea. It's the team with the fastest players that win. Eh up nige, heard back from Norwich or boro on them applications yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sexydadbod Posted March 26, 2017 Share Posted March 26, 2017 3 minutes ago, McLovin said: Carson New RB Keogh New CB Forsyth Thorne Hughes Ince Vydra New LW Martin Stick Wisdom, Buxton and Ibe in that team from a few years ago and that would be good enough for the autos in my opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.