Are you a moron?

[TroyDyer]

1 hour ago, Mostyn6 said:

Do you regard being top of the league, then 2nd at New Year as "shoddy" then?

well, which would you prefer, results or performance? Do you want promotion or just hollywood football?

I don't think being second at new year is shoddy, but the performances haven't been there and you know that you don't sustain "Played poor, but won" for an entire season. 

There were issues before new year with certain players performances, and I think Fulham, despite the win, was the first game they really showed how poor they have been. Since then it's been dreadful. The last two were shocking mate. Shocking. 

[davenportram]

2 hours ago, TroyDyer said:

I don't think being second at new year is shoddy, but the performances haven't been there and you know that you don't sustain "Played poor, but won" for an entire season. 

There were issues before new year with certain players performances, and I think Fulham, despite the win, was the first game they really showed how poor they have been. Since then it's been dreadful. The last two were shocking mate. Shocking. 

but its nothing to do with poor managerial decisions or the coaching of players. This time its down to the moron fans. Yes thats it. it cant be because the manager has made mistakes, or isnt good enough. After all he didnt come from a non-league background, hes come from  being the number2 to succesful managers so is immune to criticism and therefore I've had to find another thing to blame. I cant admit I was wrong about him being good.

[ValeRam]

Reading this thread and most of the other hysterical threads on here,  together with listening to hysterical foul mouthed people at recent matches , whilst watching yet more hysterical people literally fight themselves to get out of the stadium when things ar'nt going their way, puts me in mind of Spock in Star Treck :

"Fascinating"

[Mostyn6]

3 minutes ago, davenportram said:

but its nothing to do with poor managerial decisions or the coaching of players. This time its down to the moron fans. Yes thats it. it cant be because the manager has made mistakes, or isnt good enough. After all he didnt come from a non-league background, hes come from  being the number2 to succesful managers so is immune to criticism and therefore I've had to find another thing to blame. I cant admit I was wrong about him being good.

Dav, I know you have a bee in your bonnet regarding things I post, but you're intelligent enough to know that there's a massive difference between a manager NOT getting the best out of players (Nigel Clough), then another manager getting those players to reach their potential (first McClaren and then Clement).

Before McClaren, the majority of fans who disagreed with my (and other's) opinion on Nigel Clough (and his staff) would have said the majority of the players were not good enough and needed replacing. McClaren blew that theory out of the water and as such raised expectations of certain players. However, due to Clough's inability to be competitive, we never got to see the players try to perform under pressure. Under McClaren, we saw Derby players under pressure, and crumble under that pressure. 

So what is the solution? I said at the end of last season that we needed to let Christie, Keogh and Grant leave, and replace Forsyth as first choice LB, and the reason was simple, they bare the scars of the last season, or two. Now we find ourselves with those very same players struggling to dominate and impress. What is another solution? Perhaps we get behind those players vocally, particularly if we are doing well. But no, even when in the top 3, the fans are critical.

If we were lingering in mid-table or lower, then yes, it's time to question the coaching decisions, and yes, it's obvious Clement has made some clangers, and maybe to his credit, he's held his hand up to a few. But coaches and managers don't stop players from having a good first touch all of a sudden, they don't make players unable to do the basics under pressure, the confidence, collectively, does that, in my opinion.

I keep saying it, and nobody can disagree with me, the feelgood factor will bring the performances, booing will NEVER do it.

[davenportram]

if we aren't performing consistently its time to question the management. Poor performances are NOT created by fans moaning. Fans moaning is created by consistently poor performances.

 

we haven't played well for a while, at the start fans didn't moan about the poor performances, but when you get several the moans begin and get more vocal.

 

moaning is a symptom not a cause. It was evident under Clough too, but I dint recall it being used as a reason for poor form.

[Mostyn6]

3 minutes ago, davenportram said:

if we aren't performing consistently its time to question the management. Poor performances are NOT created by fans moaning. Fans moaning is created by consistently poor performances.

 

we haven't played well for a while, at the start fans didn't moan about the poor performances, but when you get several the moans begin and get more vocal.

 

moaning is a symptom not a cause. It was evident under Clough too, but I dint recall it being used as a reason for poor form.

again, you miss the point, it started before the poor form!

The poor performances are obviously down to poor confidence, which is down to pressure, which is down to abuse and bad atmosphere, which is down to fans expecting too much.

[davenportram]

6 minutes ago, Mostyn6 said:

again, you miss the point, it started before the poor form!

The poor performances are obviously down to poor confidence, which is down to pressure, which is down to abuse and bad atmosphere, which is down to fans expecting too much.

I have to been to every home game apart from reading this year. The moaning and groaning was not there when we played well. It was not very evident on the odd occasion we played poorly early on in the season. It wasn't even very evident when we played poorly and got a result. As performances have deteriorated the moaning gas increased. It is symptomatic of frustration.

[Curtains]

12 minutes ago, davenportram said:

I have to been to every home game apart from reading this year. The moaning and groaning was not there when we played well. It was not very evident on the odd occasion we played poorly early on in the season. It wasn't even very evident when we played poorly and got a result. As performances have deteriorated the moaning gas increased. It is symptomatic of frustration.

Was the moaning Gas a fraudulent slip lol. 

Ha ha 

[StockholmRam]

7 hours ago, davenportram said:

I have to been to every home game apart from reading this year. The moaning and groaning was not there when we played well. It was not very evident on the odd occasion we played poorly early on in the season. It wasn't even very evident when we played poorly and got a result. As performances have deteriorated the moaning gas increased. It is symptomatic of frustration.

I've mentioned before Dav ( because I'm knocking on a bit now) that the moaning, singling out players for abuse has always been there mate. It was there when Brian Clough and then Dave Mackay were winning league championships. I don't recall booing back then but certainly grumpy fans not happy with this player or that player. 

Is being grumpy and abusive really a symptom of frustration or is that just how some people are? 

[Spanish]

1 hour ago, StockholmRam said:

I've mentioned before Dav ( because I'm knocking on a bit now) that the moaning, singling out players for abuse has always been there mate. It was there when Brian Clough and then Dave Mackay were winning league championships. I don't recall booing back then but certainly grumpy fans not happy with this player or that player. 

Is being grumpy and abusive really a symptom of frustration or is that just how some people are? 

agreed, Alan Hinton used to get lots of negative comment.

what I am not sure about is whether we are worse than everybody else?

having this sort of forum emphasizes it somewhat.  Apart form your matres you never got the chance to discuss things apart from at the game

[eddie]

2 hours ago, StockholmRam said:

I've mentioned before Dav ( because I'm knocking on a bit now) that the moaning, singling out players for abuse has always been there mate. It was there when Brian Clough and then Dave Mackay were winning league championships. I don't recall booing back then but certainly grumpy fans not happy with this player or that player. 

Is being grumpy and abusive really a symptom of frustration or is that just how some people are? 

Bloody Durban.

[VulcanRam]

14 hours ago, RamuelLJackson said:

How about if you were doing a really tough job and working your behind off but things weren't going well? And then the customers stood around yelling abuse at you? Is it more likely you'd do a better job or just mentally think "sod the lot of you"?

I think that's the point - the reason the fans (and the manager for that point) were so unhappy against Reading was that the players weren't working their behinds off. They were uncommitted and lacking in the necessary effort. We could see it, and Clement said it. No doubt Mel as well. On Saturday, having gone behind, they gave up. There was no reaction at all. 

I don't think any Derby fans have ever had a problem with players who give their all, regardless of the success it brings, hence why players like Russell and the likes of Tito Villa are so popular. And why less talented players - and we have had a lot since 07/08 - are cut some slack. 

The current lot are the best that money can buy in this league so it is natural to expect that talent to perform at a more consistently higher level. They have, for the most part, and have been lauded by supporters for doing so, but they haven't in the last two games and people have let them know it. 

 

[Sexydadbod]

10 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

again, you miss the point, it started before the poor form!

The poor performances are obviously down to poor confidence, which is down to pressure, which is down to abuse and bad atmosphere, which is down to fans expecting too much.

You are making out like we are the only team in the world who do these things. You're missing the point again, these are not 5 year old kids,these are professionals who get huge amounts of money every week to try their best. I guarantee that no-one would boo if you could see that they tried their hardest every game. Look at weimann, he may be inconsistent but no-one shouts abuse at him because you can see he tries his hardest whenever he plays. If these players aren't performing because of a few boos then I worry for the team and don't want them at the club because they can't handle the pressure.

[VulcanRam]

11 hours ago, Mostyn6 said:

again, you miss the point, it started before the poor form!

The poor performances are obviously down to poor confidence, which is down to pressure, which is down to abuse and bad atmosphere, which is down to fans expecting too much.

That's the most illogical of arguments.

If poor performance was all down to fan pressure, and by your reckoning that pressure has been there for two seasons, how come we got to the top of the league when the pressure was exactly the same? You make no sense.

 

[BOB BIGGS]

2 hours ago, Spanish said:

agreed, Alan Hinton used to get lots of negative comment.

what I am not sure about is whether we are worse than everybody else?

having this sort of forum emphasizes it somewhat.  Apart form your matres you never got the chance to discuss things apart from at the game

I went to school with someone who thought Hector was poor! I also knew someone who said Todd wasn't good enough in the 70s. They would be nice problems to have at the moment....

[Wolfie20]

1 hour ago, McLovin said:

You are making out like we are the only team in the world who do these things. You're missing the point again, these are not 5 year old kids,these are professionals who get huge amounts of money every week to try their best. I guarantee that no-one would boo if you could see that they tried their hardest every game. Look at weimann, he may be inconsistent but no-one shouts abuse at him because you can see he tries his hardest whenever he plays. If these players aren't performing because of a few boos then I worry for the team and don't want them at the club because they can't handle the pressure.

If you think Weimann doesn't get abuse then try sitting in the East Stand for a game or two when he's playing. Some idiots behind me were giving him the verbals even during that short spell he had when he scored a couple of goals.

[TuffLuff]

Apologies if this has already been said in this thread, but aren't we over complicating all this a little? I think the questions are simple:

Are we, as fans, making our stadium uncomfortable as possible for away teams so they hate playing here? No

Are we, as fans, putting pressure of referees to help get decisions? No

Are we, as fans, doing our bit to create an atmosphere that might push the players to find that extra 10%? No

Are we, as fans, out singing fans in a south east corner that we said was too quiet and hard to create an atmosphere in? No 

Are we, as fans, too interested in trying analyse the team and talk online like we know all?  Are we more bothered about being panicky after every half misplaced pass on a Saturday? Are we bothered berating a player for trying to win free kicks then the ref for not giving it? YES! and I could go on.

Yes, it's not the only problem. Of course there is a chunk with the players and manager. I can the arguments on both sides of this and both are valid. But sometimes we need to ask, are we doing all that we can do to help?

[eddie]

1 hour ago, BOB BIGGS said:

I went to school with someone who thought Hector was poor! I also knew someone who said Todd wasn't good enough in the 70s. They would be nice problems to have at the moment....

You went to school with Alf Ramsey?

[JW37]

The crowd and general atmosphere at home games has been diabolical. Get out sung every week lol.

[Spanish]

28 minutes ago, eddie said:

You went to school with Alf Ramsey?

I suppose you had to be there to understand this, bravo